CBS ever so slowly scaling back on the 60s

[frozenfiresb]

I wouldn't be surprised if half of the 60s songs heard regularly on CBS are by 4 artists- Beatles, Stones, Four Tops, Supremes. There's around a dozen or two other songs I can think of that make up half of what's left (I'm A Believer, Wild Thing, Build Me Up Buttercup, Can't Take My Eyes Off You, My Girl, Happy Together, Na Na Hey Hey).

This weekend they're spotlighting "Garage Bands", yet just last hour they played a Stones song in that slot.

I'm aware I am exaggerating, but it looks like CBS may be taking a look at the ratings of other (formerly) oldies stations that have drastically scaled back their 60s playlist (WOGL in Philly comes to mind).

 

[davideduardo]

I'm aware I am exaggerating, but it looks like CBS may be taking a look at the ratings of other (formerly) oldies stations that have drastically scaled back their 60s playlist (WOGL in Philly comes to mind).

There is certainly some basis for looking at WOGL (as was done in the early 2002 PPM testing) since Philly is an accredited PPM market, and would tend to show how a fully accredited market would behave.

And, as every year passes, the 60's stuff becomes more irrelevant to the salable demos, so that's another reason for a slow consistent rebalancing.

 

[BruceS8852]

WOGL has a Sunday night specialty show with Harvey Holiday that plays Doo Wop. I wish WCBS-FM would do the same. For 3 hours a week, why can't they put the demographic issues aside?

Bruce

 

[radioguy39nj]

WOGL has a Sunday night specialty show with Harvey Holiday that plays Doo Wop. I wish WCBS-FM would do the same. For 3 hours a week, why can't they put the demographic issues aside?

Bruce

Probably because it's New York, not Philly. CBS-FM has to answer to Madison Ave. WOGL doesn't. In NY, ad agencies have almost total control of what programming gets on the air. That largely answers why formats that thrive in markets of all sizes outside NY are forbidden fruit here.

Being in the country's largest media market isn't always a blessing.

 

[BMR]

I've mentioned this before, but Gold in London don't seem to be cutting back on 60s at all yet


Mind you the 'Britpop' boom of the 1990s means there are a lot of people my age (mid 30s) who like 60s music....

 

[BruceS8852]

>>In NY, ad agencies have almost total control of what programming gets on the air. That largely answers why formats that thrive in markets of all sizes outside NY are forbidden fruit here.<<

The above is from RadioGuy39NJ's post

I have to agree with that especially for country music which appears on FMs in major Northeastern cities.

Bruce

 

[radioguy39nj]

>>In NY, ad agencies have almost total control of what programming gets on the air. That largely answers why formats that thrive in markets of all sizes outside NY are forbidden fruit here.<<

The above is from RadioGuy39NJ's post

I have to agree with that especially for country music which appears on FMs in major Northeastern cities.

Bruce

Local talk is another format that thrives elsewhere but is forbidden in NY. 100% local talk is expensive, but 50-75% is more than acceptable. WABC continues to be successful because it effectively has no competition, not because Rush & Sean are so popular in NY. WABC is for practical purposes "Rush Radio", except CC doesn't own it.

There are numerous examples of talk stations in top 10 markets that feature mostly local programming relevant to that station's market. It is disgraceful that two 50 kW AM talk blowtorches give very little attention to the NYC market.

 

[oldies76]

The 60's music will never go away. There are too many key songs and artists to ignore. I believe what will happen is that, lower charting, more pre-64's and lesser known 60's will fade out and only a handful will remain (ie...Beatles, Stones, Supremes, Temptations and yes...Brown Eyed Girl) as staples for many, many years to come.

I can always listen to local AM stations or my MP3 player for in-depth 50's, 60's and 70's.

As for the demos, people over 55 will continue to listen to CBS-FM as long as their music (in some shape or form) is there. Having 55+ is a bonus, even if advertisers don't target them. If the music is taken away, then they will choose other stations to hear their favorites (mainly AM's) and it will be CBS-FM's loss without them.

As CBS-FM moves into the late 80's and 90's as it's main presentation (if they ever do), many originals will tune away and one only hopes that adults today, that were growing up in the 90's will ever tune in to "their" oldies (for CBS-FM's sake). Most likely not, with MP3's and iPods and other new technologies as their main source of music from the past.

 

[LibertyNT]

KLUV here in DFW (CBS owned)
has entirely removed 60's from its slogan,
removed the long time voice of the station
and moved most of its 60's music to its HD2

 

[airpab]

radioguy39nj-

Except that NY isn't the nation's largest (Radio) Media Market!

In terms of ad dollars generated, L.A. is definitively, #1 !!

Sorry to burst the Big Apple's bubble!

 

[DToTheJ]

@Liberty: In fact, KLUV is now going by the tagline, "The Best Of The 70's And More." How soon before that reaches the Big Apple? (Then again, it is less of a mouthful than "North Texas' Greatest Hits"... : )

 

[davideduardo]

Probably because it's New York, not Philly. CBS-FM has to answer to Madison Ave. WOGL doesn't. In NY, ad agencies have almost total control of what programming gets on the air. That largely answers why formats that thrive in markets of all sizes outside NY are forbidden fruit here.

Being in the country's largest media market isn't always a blessing.

Any of the top 10 or so markets have the similar percentages of agency business (remembering that there is local agency business and national business). And stations in any rated market that want to get in on agency buys will have to program to the demographics agency clients want to buy.

Agencies buy for reach and frequency. Stations that fit the client's target get bought... and that works in London, Buenos Aires or Tokyo, too.

And agencies don't buy Sunday 7-Midnight, anyway.

As was said, NY is not the largest media market... LA is, and has been for several decades.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Probably because it's New York, not Philly. CBS-FM has to answer to Madison Ave. WOGL doesn't. In NY, ad agencies have almost total control of what programming gets on the air. That largely answers why formats that thrive in markets of all sizes outside NY are forbidden fruit here.

Being in the country's largest media market isn't always a blessing.

Any of the top 10 or so markets have the similar percentages of agency business (remembering that there is local agency business and national business). And stations in any rated market that want to get in on agency buys will have to program to the demographics agency clients want to buy.

Agencies buy for reach and frequency. Stations that fit the client's target get bought... and that works in London, Buenos Aires or Tokyo, too.

And agencies don't buy Sunday 7-Midnight, anyway.

As was said, NY is not the largest media market... LA is, and has been for several decades.

I'm not going to argue with you David but I find it interesting that LA, with half the population is a larger RADIO market than N.Y. If L.A. is a bigger market (and I'm not talking about time spent listening due to their horrible commute times) why does Arbitron calll N.Y. market 1 or does population figures not enter in to the equation?

 

[davideduardo]

I'm not going to argue with you David but I find it interesting that LA, with half the population is a larger RADIO market than N.Y. If L.A. is a bigger market (and I'm not talking about time spent listening due to their horrible commute times) why does Arbitron calll N.Y. market 1 or does population figures not enter in to the equation?

LA had about $750 million in radio revenues last year, while New York had $600 million.

LA is a 13,000,000 person MSA (0+), while New York is 18.000.000. NY does not have twice the population.

The phrase used was "media market" and that throws the discussion into revenues, not population.

NY's time spent listening to radio, per 6+ person, is 12:30 hours a week. In LA, it is 12:45. So there is essentially no difference in TSL (actually, now called AWTE) and what variances there are have more to do with things like weather, the start of a baseball season, etc.

 

[recto101]

I wouldn't be surprised if half of the 60s songs heard regularly on CBS are by 4 artists- Beatles, Stones, Four Tops, Supremes. There's around a dozen or two other songs I can think of that make up half of what's left (I'm A Believer, Wild Thing, Build Me Up Buttercup, Can't Take My Eyes Off You, My Girl, Happy Together, Na Na Hey Hey).

This weekend they're spotlighting "Garage Bands", yet just last hour they played a Stones song in that slot.

I'm aware I am exaggerating, but it looks like CBS may be taking a look at the ratings of other (formerly) oldies stations that have drastically scaled back their 60s playlist (WOGL in Philly comes to mind).

I think its about a demographics change. I noticed in San Francisco Oldies 103.7 fm include the 1980's. I know back in the 1980's Oldies radio meants 1950's-1960's and to a certain extent 1970's.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I'm not going to argue with you David but I find it interesting that LA, with half the population is a larger RADIO market than N.Y. If L.A. is a bigger market (and I'm not talking about time spent listening due to their horrible commute times) why does Arbitron calll N.Y. market 1 or does population figures not enter in to the equation?

LA had about $750 million in radio revenues last year, while New York had $600 million.

LA is a 13,000,000 person MSA (0+), while New York is 18.000.000. NY does not have twice the population.

The phrase used was "media market" and that throws the discussion into revenues, not population.

NY's time spent listening to radio, per 6+ person, is 12:30 hours a week. In LA, it is 12:45. So there is essentially no difference in TSL (actually, now called AWTE) and what variances there are have more to do with things like weather, the start of a baseball season, etc.

Actually, your pop numbers are a bit high. According to Arbitron NY has 15.3 million population and LA has 11.028 mill. Still it's quite a bit smaller than NYC no matter if its half or apprx. 4 million people. The answer is that NY is a mass transit city with buses where most commuters are sleeping (I know this for a fact) & subways where radio can not be received and NYers don't spend anywhere near as much time in their cars where the majority of listening takes place. Still Arbitron calls NY the #1 radio (and TV) market no matter what anyone says. This is where the vast majority of agencies are. Is WLTW still the number one billing station in the country? I knw that WFAN was up there as well. I know there are a few top sellers in LA but that is because, as I said earlier, time spent listening (to radio) in LA is far greater than in NYC.

 

[davideduardo]

Actually, your pop numbers are a bit high. According to Arbitron NY has 15.3 million population and LA has 11.028 mill.

I put "0+" in my reference, as Arbitron uses 6+ populations, not the entire market population.

Still it's quite a bit smaller than NYC no matter if its half or apprx. 4 million people.

But LA is the bigger media market. There are many, many cases of markets that are significantly lower or higher in billing rank than the rank based on their population.

The answer is that NY is a mass transit city with buses where most commuters are sleeping (I know this for a fact) & subways where radio can not be received and NYers don't spend anywhere near as much time in their cars where the majority of listening takes place.

Now I see where the foundation of your argument fails. The majority of listening does not take place in the car. Based on diary data (which did not change year to year) about 1/3 or less of all listening takes place in the car. The rest is at home or at work.

Still Arbitron calls NY the #1 radio (and TV) market no matter what anyone says.

But, again, the reference was to the "media market" rank... and LA is the larger media market for radio.

This is where the vast majority of agencies are.

No, it's not. Certainly NY has a large number of agencies, but it does not have the majority. In fact, if you look across the country, most medium to larger cities have a number of local ad agencies that work in the immediate area or region. And then places like Chicago (Leo Burnett, anyone?) and Miami and Atlanta and LA and Seattle and San Francisco and Minneapolis and Dallas are all significant agency and "buying centers."

As an example, market 14 had, last I counted, over 100 ad agencies.

Is WLTW still the number one billing station in the country?

No, the top biller is WTOP in DC, followed by KIIS in LA, then WCBS AM in NY, then KFI in LA and then WLTW in NY.

10 of the top 20 billing stations in the US are in LA. 6 are in New York. One is in DC, and three are in Chicago

I know there are a few top sellers in LA but that is because, as I said earlier, time spent listening (to radio) in LA is far greater than in NYC.

I just gave you the AWTE for LA and NY. LA is 12:45 hours per week per person 6+ and in NY it is 12:30 hours per week.

The "time spent 'listening'" is for all purposes identical in the two markets.

 

[Ryan Williams]

David, what are the reasons/theories for how Los Angeles passed New York in revenue, given the smaller population?

 

[davideduardo]

Still Arbitron calls NY the #1 radio (and TV) market no matter what anyone says. C.

Sidebar: Arbitron does not "call" New York the "1 TV market, as Arbitron does not measure TV. Nielsen defines the New York DMA, while Arbitron defines the radio MSA.

MSA (Metro Survey Areas) areas tend to be close to or equal to the Census Metropolitan Statistical Areas or the CMSAs in some cases. DMAs tend to be larger than MSAs in nearly all cases except surrounded markets such as Palm Springs. The NY DMA is 7.5 million hourseholds, while the Los Angeles DMA is 5.7 million households.

 

[davideduardo]

David, what are the reasons/theories for how Los Angeles passed New York in revenue, given the smaller population?

Per Duncan's American Radio 1975-2003 Trilogy Part I, LA inched ahead of NY in 1983 and then widened the margin so that by 2003 LA was $1.04 billion wile NY was $802 million. The $200 million difference was itself comparable to the total radio billings of San Diego or Phoenix.

There has been a lot of speculation on the causes. What is obvious is that you find, for example, Providence billing ten or so rank positions below its market rank, but Orlando which is 35th in population is 22nd in billing. San Antonio is 32nd in population, but 28th in billing. Denver is 19th in population, 16th in billings. Phoenix 15th, but 12th in billings. On the other hand, Detroit, 10th in population, is 14th in billings.

The high growth markets, particularly sun belt markets, seems to have moved up faster. This may have to do with the fact that most have a younger median population age than, let's say, Pittsburgh or Cleveland. And those markets have been where the growth of the Home depots and WalMarts and Targets have been, too.