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CBS Sports Station Tanks in October
- Thread starter Capulet
- Start date
But The Almighty Fan is going to put WKNR out of business in weeks you just wait and see. Craig will be hanging the for sale sign out front. :
I know this is a hard concept to grasp. But maybe just maybe, the people of Cleveland enjoy the hosts they are familiar with and not a bunch of guys with Brooklyn accents.
WKNR's numbers went UP!
I know this is a hard concept to grasp. But maybe just maybe, the people of Cleveland enjoy the hosts they are familiar with and not a bunch of guys with Brooklyn accents.
WKNR's numbers went UP!
Proving that just because you put a format on FM, doesn't mean you automatically will draw more than your AM competition. 92.3's audience has gone down...way down...since the Fan's debut. KNR is up. NYC's WEMP and Chicago's WNNN are down...way down to low fractions of their former audiences. The people (at least those with ppm's) have spoken...
rubberchicken said:
Explain then why did Craig K. totally blew up his post-3pm lineup and has seriously tinkered with his top-rated show.
wffm78 said:
You can't be seriously comparing WKRK to those two abominations of the radio industry.
WWWN and WEMP have an ill-conceived female all-news format that had no plan, poor execution, and no marketing budget. Plus they are going up against CBS' heritage (and well-respected) all-news brands in both cities, the Chicago station even moving TO FM, blowing up that market's "Fresh" signal to do so. CBS owns the all-news game in New York with both 1010/WINS and WCBS/880.
Also bear in mind that WWWN and WEMP's preceding formats (Q101 and WXRP) were miserable in the ratings and revenue department with alt rock to begin with. They were TERRIBLY RUN, and Emmis wanted to unload those two for several years. It just so happened that Randy Michaels, who I was told was a genius in the radio programming department, thought that this would be a good idea.
Then again, Randy was responsible for "HELL 94.7," the ugliest two-week stunt in Chicago radio history.
WKRK has far and away more upside that those two dead-in-the-water signals. And you and I know it.
Giving credit where it's due, KNR has hung in there.
The only one on the Fan with a Brooklyn accent is Adam the Bull...the bulk of the Fan's other voices (Booms/Baskin/Phelps/Fox/Carman) are all NE Ohio natives.
But to the original point...I mentioned in previous threads that Cleveland is a "go with the devil you know" media town, and since we're deep in the heart of Browns and Buckeyes season, it's almost tradition that sports fans go to KNR to moan and groan.
As far as KNR itself goes, the recent changes they have made have been for the better.
On RBS, Hammer has turned it down a couple of notches (though he's still...you know...Hammer) and the addition of the more easygoing producer/sidekicks Casey and Chrissy (and Je'Rod Cherry on Mondays to talk football), combined with the subtraction of Fedor's grating persona has made for a better (though not perfect) show.
In PMD, Hooley and Brinda have been OK (not great, but hardly horrible). Fedor--without kindred spirit Hammer egging him on--has been knocked down a couple of pegs with 2 grown ups there to reign him in, thus making him (somewhat) easier to tolerate.
And Will Burge is showing himself to be a capable host, especially with Je'Rod Cherry to play off of.
Though GKB still had to have their tail between their legs with the LeCharles Bentley/Emmit Golden fiasco.
The Fan in and of itself isn't bad, but CBS really dropped the ball in not promoting them hard and heavy leading up to their debut.
They really should have stunted or something to hype up the new format, instead of basically having it sneak in the back door.
It's still early, and 60 days or so doesn't long term projections make.
CBS is in this for the long haul, and has the ultimate weapon of $$ to bring in what KNR can't...PBP.
OSU is up after '12, and the "big 3" not too far after.
Let's let it play out.
If nothing else, WKRK has forced KNR to realize their flaws, and try to correct them.
Still has warts, but at least they're now investing in some Compound W.
rubberchicken said:
The only one on the Fan with a Brooklyn accent is Adam the Bull...the bulk of the Fan's other voices (Booms/Baskin/Phelps/Fox/Carman) are all NE Ohio natives.
But to the original point...I mentioned in previous threads that Cleveland is a "go with the devil you know" media town, and since we're deep in the heart of Browns and Buckeyes season, it's almost tradition that sports fans go to KNR to moan and groan.
As far as KNR itself goes, the recent changes they have made have been for the better.
On RBS, Hammer has turned it down a couple of notches (though he's still...you know...Hammer) and the addition of the more easygoing producer/sidekicks Casey and Chrissy (and Je'Rod Cherry on Mondays to talk football), combined with the subtraction of Fedor's grating persona has made for a better (though not perfect) show.
In PMD, Hooley and Brinda have been OK (not great, but hardly horrible). Fedor--without kindred spirit Hammer egging him on--has been knocked down a couple of pegs with 2 grown ups there to reign him in, thus making him (somewhat) easier to tolerate.
And Will Burge is showing himself to be a capable host, especially with Je'Rod Cherry to play off of.
Though GKB still had to have their tail between their legs with the LeCharles Bentley/Emmit Golden fiasco.
The Fan in and of itself isn't bad, but CBS really dropped the ball in not promoting them hard and heavy leading up to their debut.
They really should have stunted or something to hype up the new format, instead of basically having it sneak in the back door.
It's still early, and 60 days or so doesn't long term projections make.
CBS is in this for the long haul, and has the ultimate weapon of $$ to bring in what KNR can't...PBP.
OSU is up after '12, and the "big 3" not too far after.
Let's let it play out.
Nathan Obral said:
If nothing else, WKRK has forced KNR to realize their flaws, and try to correct them.
Still has warts, but at least they're now investing in some Compound W.
vjm said:
Yup. And there's nothing wrong with that at all.
WKNR has a good five years left of viability in the market. Different story if Craig K. can somehow get an FM stick.
But for those thinking that WKNR would fold up like "ESPN 1250" WEAE/1250 did last December... well, that's apples and oranges. Yes, CBS put KDKA-FM on the air, but Disney/ABC wanted to shed many of their small-market properties, so they blew up WEAE to put Radio Disney on the stick (Disney leased a suburban AMer from Birach to run Radio Disney on).
vjm said:
Gee, that reminds me of two other brand new stations that launched this year...
wffm78 said:
:
Seriously, though, if $$ is indeed CBS' ultimate weapon, why didn't they unload a clip or two in the promoting department? Giving away 9,230 Indians tickets can only take you so far, I guess...
Perhaps CBS's plan for 923TheFan was to have a "soft" launch for a few months....get it's proverbial ducks in a row, then market/advertise the station. Who knows.
Remember...WKNR 850 (or 1220) has been sports in NE Ohio for more than 10 years....and has their couple-hundred-thousand or so weekly cume listeners. WKRK wasn't going to blow them away in a few months with no multi-media promotion/advertising...right out of the box.
Still, I'm with Nathan...given that CBS has the $$$ to crush any rival they care to, and the fact that they are on the radio band that reaches 8 of every 10 radio listeners (FM)...in the long haul, 923TheFan should win. I still think sooner or later WNCX and 923TheFan will flip frequencies. Far more long-term upside for sports on the bigger-coverage frequency.
P.S.: Radio fans criticisms of WKNR and other stations is far more severe/picky than the average listener. For us, it's a hobby..something we're passionate about. For 99.9% of radio listeners...these are just radio stations...sound coming out of the speakers.
Remember...WKNR 850 (or 1220) has been sports in NE Ohio for more than 10 years....and has their couple-hundred-thousand or so weekly cume listeners. WKRK wasn't going to blow them away in a few months with no multi-media promotion/advertising...right out of the box.
Still, I'm with Nathan...given that CBS has the $$$ to crush any rival they care to, and the fact that they are on the radio band that reaches 8 of every 10 radio listeners (FM)...in the long haul, 923TheFan should win. I still think sooner or later WNCX and 923TheFan will flip frequencies. Far more long-term upside for sports on the bigger-coverage frequency.
P.S.: Radio fans criticisms of WKNR and other stations is far more severe/picky than the average listener. For us, it's a hobby..something we're passionate about. For 99.9% of radio listeners...these are just radio stations...sound coming out of the speakers.
Oddly enough, WNCX has enjoyed a nice rebound in morning drive following Maxwell's dismissal. Not to what they had with Scott and Jeff, but respectable once again. (In some demos, the numbers were doubled... with nothing but music and sweepers!)
Which should make Slats' impending arrival in that timeslot much more smooth.
Which should make Slats' impending arrival in that timeslot much more smooth.
Give 92.3 to March 2012. October was hideous. Would hate to be on that sales staff. Discussions on message boards will not drive cume. They need to market to get that cume to 200.000 by March. If not the money coming in for 92.3 advertising will be all value added from WNCX buys. That's how it worked over there for years. Time will tell.
Capulet said:
One other reason why they NEED to market now: by March, yes, it's spring training for the Indians. But it wouldn't hurt to have SOME awareness of the station by then.
But timing is critical, and could hurt WKRK's cause if they don't get their rears in gear.
You can't really market the station in January or February at this point, considering that there is no NBA season, and thus there's little sports talk to comment on. Unless you're one of the few people that likes to nit-pick the performance of Colt McCoy on a year-round basis. (And who wants to listen to THAT on a daily basis?)
With no NBA season, and no Cavaliers squad in action - even a losing squad - to talk about, this could be a nuclear sports winter. February will be rough for the entire airstaff.
It will also hurt WKNR a bit, too, although they have that emphasis on 'guy talk' to soften the blow. WTAM will just shrug it off and continue their diet of conservatalk, only this time on a more regular basis.
All together now: this is the "pre-season" for 92.3, and these numbers mean no more than the Browns losing 56-0 in a pre-season contest. (Though the Browns may not be the best example, as they certainly know how to lose in the regular season as well. )
No, "The Fan's" pre-season will last a year or two, until they start picking up big PBP contracts. Having those contracts are the cornerstone of success stories at the other big CBS sports talkers.
* "The Sports Hub" in Boston inherited the NFL Patriots and NHL Bruins from other CBS stations in that market. Add in a Bruins Stanley Cup, and dominant WEEI has been reeling ever since.
* "The Ticket" in Detroit has sports contracts, some of them inherited from predecessor stations or their own AM side. They also poached the Pistons from WDFN, no? Fat lot of good that does them this year. Heh.
* "The Fan" brother station in Pittsburgh had no pro contracts at all, and was a mid-pack station most of its early run...but they'll have the Pirates in 2012.
Meanwhile, you can almost see the Indians season in WTAM's ratings numbers.
The Indians are the primary catalyst for WTAM's recent success, paired with things like Rush's success and the rise of Triv's show in PMD. The Indians were hot in the 1990s, and once WTAM moved the rights over from then-sister WKNR...so was WTAM.
Right now, 92.3 has nothing other than the WW1 play-by-play, or Compass Media Networks' package (CFB, heard it tonight). The game changes if they pick up any of the big 3 pro teams, or heck, if they swipe tOSU from WKNR next year.
And that will NOT be easy. CC knows the value of the teams to WTAM and WMMS, and Craig isn't going to let the Buckeyes go without a fight.
But CBS is not concentrating on what does appear to be a low-rated start. They are in sports radio here and elsewhere for the long haul, not a for couple of PPM monthlies in 2011. They are not packing up the thing in early 2012.
Are they doing some things wrong at the Halle Building? Certainly.
* Marketing. It's been mentioned here before - no one knows the station exists, aside from whatever sports fans existed in the Radio 92.3 audience in late August. Outside marketing has been basically limited to a few signs in RTA rapid cars and stations (Tower City).
I was out and about in Cuyahoga County on Thursday - still no billboards that I can see. If they are running local spots on the regional TV sports networks, I'm not seeing it here on the former Adelphia system now a part of TWC.
WKRK's other marketing problem? They have managed to nab a local TV sports director (Andy Baskin) but got NO ON-AIR TV PROMOTION for his radio show. None! Andy mentions it offhand occasionally, particularly during "Sports Saturday/Sunday", but where's the "You can hear NewsChannel 5's Andy Baskin weekdays at 10 AM..." cards and voiceovers?
Maybe they are in a "soft launch", but the thing is pretty much a secret unless you happen to scan your FM dial down to 92.3. (And they got almost no out of station bounce, save for a brief mention in a PD item, for the Indians/Thome ticket giveaway.)
* Content. Quoting my Secondary Voice(tm) here:
That topic is in heavy rotation on The Fan these days, right below "What Did Peyton Hillis Do Now?"
Yes, we are in mid-season. Yes, the Browns own the sports universe in this town. And yes, perhaps most importantly, the Cavaliers are in suspended animation due to the lockout, so there's precious little to talk about there.
The topic rotation is often monotonous on The Fan, but that's the lot they have in life I guess.
I am among those who underestimated WKNR, and they've done pretty well in the face of direct competition.
But even I said, at The Fan's launch, that they don't win this thing just by showing up. We'll see if 92.3 is still floundering in a year or two, and what pro contracts CBS can snatch from Oak Tree. (And, if they finally decide to get off that horrible signal...though hiring Slats for 98.5 is a sign they probably see some future life in that station.)
)No, "The Fan's" pre-season will last a year or two, until they start picking up big PBP contracts. Having those contracts are the cornerstone of success stories at the other big CBS sports talkers.
* "The Sports Hub" in Boston inherited the NFL Patriots and NHL Bruins from other CBS stations in that market. Add in a Bruins Stanley Cup, and dominant WEEI has been reeling ever since.
* "The Ticket" in Detroit has sports contracts, some of them inherited from predecessor stations or their own AM side. They also poached the Pistons from WDFN, no? Fat lot of good that does them this year. Heh.
* "The Fan" brother station in Pittsburgh had no pro contracts at all, and was a mid-pack station most of its early run...but they'll have the Pirates in 2012.
Meanwhile, you can almost see the Indians season in WTAM's ratings numbers.
The Indians are the primary catalyst for WTAM's recent success, paired with things like Rush's success and the rise of Triv's show in PMD. The Indians were hot in the 1990s, and once WTAM moved the rights over from then-sister WKNR...so was WTAM.
Right now, 92.3 has nothing other than the WW1 play-by-play, or Compass Media Networks' package (CFB, heard it tonight). The game changes if they pick up any of the big 3 pro teams, or heck, if they swipe tOSU from WKNR next year.
And that will NOT be easy. CC knows the value of the teams to WTAM and WMMS, and Craig isn't going to let the Buckeyes go without a fight.
But CBS is not concentrating on what does appear to be a low-rated start. They are in sports radio here and elsewhere for the long haul, not a for couple of PPM monthlies in 2011. They are not packing up the thing in early 2012.
Are they doing some things wrong at the Halle Building? Certainly.
* Marketing. It's been mentioned here before - no one knows the station exists, aside from whatever sports fans existed in the Radio 92.3 audience in late August. Outside marketing has been basically limited to a few signs in RTA rapid cars and stations (Tower City).
I was out and about in Cuyahoga County on Thursday - still no billboards that I can see. If they are running local spots on the regional TV sports networks, I'm not seeing it here on the former Adelphia system now a part of TWC.
WKRK's other marketing problem? They have managed to nab a local TV sports director (Andy Baskin) but got NO ON-AIR TV PROMOTION for his radio show. None! Andy mentions it offhand occasionally, particularly during "Sports Saturday/Sunday", but where's the "You can hear NewsChannel 5's Andy Baskin weekdays at 10 AM..." cards and voiceovers?
Maybe they are in a "soft launch", but the thing is pretty much a secret unless you happen to scan your FM dial down to 92.3. (And they got almost no out of station bounce, save for a brief mention in a PD item, for the Indians/Thome ticket giveaway.)
* Content. Quoting my Secondary Voice(tm) here:
That topic is in heavy rotation on The Fan these days, right below "What Did Peyton Hillis Do Now?"
Yes, we are in mid-season. Yes, the Browns own the sports universe in this town. And yes, perhaps most importantly, the Cavaliers are in suspended animation due to the lockout, so there's precious little to talk about there.
The topic rotation is often monotonous on The Fan, but that's the lot they have in life I guess.
I am among those who underestimated WKNR, and they've done pretty well in the face of direct competition.
But even I said, at The Fan's launch, that they don't win this thing just by showing up. We'll see if 92.3 is still floundering in a year or two, and what pro contracts CBS can snatch from Oak Tree. (And, if they finally decide to get off that horrible signal...though hiring Slats for 98.5 is a sign they probably see some future life in that station.)
Capulet said:
If I'm not mistaken, KDKA-FM had a worse start than WKRK did (totally blowing out the demos from a prior CHR format).
But again, CBS isn't going to blow it all up for a return to jockless alt-rock.
Capulet said:
You better be kidding.
CBS will NEVER deal with the Karmazians - regardless if it is Craig or Mel.
The reasons are fairly obvious, and can be summed up in three words:
Sirus.
Howard.
Stern.
Capulet said:
Yep, it is. Though it's only two monthlies, and only 6+ public numbers, I expected them to come out of the gate with a higher mark.
But as Nathan said, they aren't gonna blow the thing up after two bad months after debut.
My gut tells me that they will start making changes/tweaking if they keep at this level, but they are really, really waiting for PBP contracts.
I listen to pretty much every show all day, and I see some definitive changes that have to be made:
1. Kiley and Booms need to go. That show is just uncomfortable.
2. Baskin and Phelps really comes of as old guy radio. I appreciate that they have standing in Cleveland, but they need more fire in their discussion. Simply put, they are boring.
3. Bull and Fox - pretty good, but Dustin shows daily that he's a green talker. He always seems like he's not comfortable to have any sort of controversial thing to say. He also is sadly lacking in transitional conversation and ALWAYS relies on Adam to lead and control the conversation.
4. Ken Carmen - Quirky like most night hosts would be. He doesn't hold back, and doesn't care who he offends in the process. Probably my personal favorite on the station.
They will survive as a station, but at least 3 of these personalities will be replaced by summer of 2012.
1. Kiley and Booms need to go. That show is just uncomfortable.
2. Baskin and Phelps really comes of as old guy radio. I appreciate that they have standing in Cleveland, but they need more fire in their discussion. Simply put, they are boring.
3. Bull and Fox - pretty good, but Dustin shows daily that he's a green talker. He always seems like he's not comfortable to have any sort of controversial thing to say. He also is sadly lacking in transitional conversation and ALWAYS relies on Adam to lead and control the conversation.
4. Ken Carmen - Quirky like most night hosts would be. He doesn't hold back, and doesn't care who he offends in the process. Probably my personal favorite on the station.
They will survive as a station, but at least 3 of these personalities will be replaced by summer of 2012.
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