CBS Sports Station Tanks in October

[CleveRadioInsider]

I listen to pretty much every show all day, and I see some definitive changes that have to be made:

1. Kiley and Booms need to go. That show is just uncomfortable.

2. Baskin and Phelps really comes of as old guy radio. I appreciate that they have standing in Cleveland, but they need more fire in their discussion. Simply put, they are boring.

3. Bull and Fox - pretty good, but Dustin shows daily that he's a green talker. He always seems like he's not comfortable to have any sort of controversial thing to say. He also is sadly lacking in transitional conversation and ALWAYS relies on Adam to lead and control the conversation.

4. Ken Carmen - Quirky like most night hosts would be. He doesn't hold back, and doesn't care who he offends in the process. Probably my personal favorite on the station.

They will survive as a station, but at least 3 of these personalities will be replaced by summer of 2012.


Kiley and Booms are good radio. They are perfect for the morning.
Baskin and Phelps are terrible. Too Vanilla, not enjoyable to listen too, they are 100% homers.
Adam the Bull is excellent. Dustin Fox not too much. Too much of an apologist for athletes.
Ken Carmen is good too. Perfect host for the night.

 

[Capulet]

I listen to pretty much every show all day, and I see some definitive changes that have to be made:

1. Kiley and Booms need to go. That show is just uncomfortable.

2. Baskin and Phelps really comes of as old guy radio. I appreciate that they have standing in Cleveland, but they need more fire in their discussion. Simply put, they are boring.

3. Bull and Fox - pretty good, but Dustin shows daily that he's a green talker. He always seems like he's not comfortable to have any sort of controversial thing to say. He also is sadly lacking in transitional conversation and ALWAYS relies on Adam to lead and control the conversation.

4. Ken Carmen - Quirky like most night hosts would be. He doesn't hold back, and doesn't care who he offends in the process. Probably my personal favorite on the station.

They will survive as a station, but at least 3 of these personalities will be replaced by summer of 2012.

1) Booms will implode. Always does. That show is hideous and uncomfortable. .

2) no comment-don't listen-this daypart is up against Rome anyway. Rome gets HUGE numbers.

3) Bull and Fox sound good together. Brinda and Hooley are excellent.

4) no comment don't listen - don;t listen to any radio at night anyway

The market voted in October. That station tanked bad that month. Will be real interesting to see how they do in November. Hard to believe CBS invests in a format but does no marketing. Cnat play diary manipulation games with PPM.

 

[Rusty Muck]

I listen to pretty much every show all day, and I see some definitive changes that have to be made:

1. Kiley and Booms need to go. That show is just uncomfortable.

2. Baskin and Phelps really comes of as old guy radio. I appreciate that they have standing in Cleveland, but they need more fire in their discussion. Simply put, they are boring.

3. Bull and Fox - pretty good, but Dustin shows daily that he's a green talker. He always seems like he's not comfortable to have any sort of controversial thing to say. He also is sadly lacking in transitional conversation and ALWAYS relies on Adam to lead and control the conversation.

4. Ken Carmen - Quirky like most night hosts would be. He doesn't hold back, and doesn't care who he offends in the process. Probably my personal favorite on the station.

They will survive as a station, but at least 3 of these personalities will be replaced by summer of 2012.

1) Booms will implode. Always does. That show is hideous and uncomfortable. .

2) no comment-don't listen-this daypart is up against Rome anyway. Rome gets HUGE numbers.

3) Bull and Fox sound good together. Brinda and Hooley are excellent.

4) no comment don't listen - don;t listen to any radio at night anyway

Kiley and Booms are what they are. Booms is literally on his last chance, and he's teamed with the only person that has best dealt with him, along with two producers, and it's all in his hometown. If he can't get it to work, he never will. The two of them sound pretty good when you pull all of that aside. Of course, WKNR can't do much due to the must-carry of the dreadful "Mike & Mike."

Baskin and Phelps lacks any controversy whatsoever. They are close friends, they like each other, and that's the problem. It comes off as just filler programming - not bad for the weekends, but when you are going up against your competitors' most-talked-about-and-most-controversial-show in tRBS, it's awful. They either need a third cog to stoke something on the air, or blow it up. (And for the record, they only face ONE HOUR of Rome.)

Adam the Bull is phenomenal. Dustin is too green and still shows as a projection hire. I'd swap Dustin with Joe Lull, and I bet a lot of people who heard Joe fill-in last week feel the same way.

Ken Carman has the thankless job of talking sports directly opposite PBP, but he's still solid.

Weekends? Meh. Silverstein is who he is (and has the time slot he has), and Kendall Lewis has made strides in his overall recovery. Anthony Lima isn't half bad going solo; we'll see how it sound teaming him up with Lull.

The Sunday lineup has been a colossal disappointment. Why they aren't starting live programming at 7AM mystifies me. Airing the Mike Francesca hour at 9AM is an automatic dial-switcher (not because Mike's bad, just that it isn't local, and too many "66 WFAN" liners leak out over the air). And then... the pregame. Why was Phelps solo for seven weeks before he was teamed with Lull? Bring out your strongest hosts (Adam, Carman, Lull, Kiley, Phelps, Jeff Thomas and/or Ruiter) for a six-hour pregame. And don't throw your most promising host in Carman up against the actual game... egads.

The market voted in October. That station tanked bad that month. Will be real interesting to see how they do in November. Hard to believe CBS invests in a format but does no marketing. Cnat play diary manipulation games with PPM.

You contradict yourself. Because CBS has done no marketing, there's no way to legitimately say the market voted... when they most likely never knew that there was a choice to begin with. The absence of ratings does not equal audience rejection.

I bet 90% of the audience still thinks that we have a monopsony in sports radio.

Oddly enough, CBS is probably thinking that, with no NBA season in sight, months away from the return of baseball, and a year away from fighting for PBP contracts, they might as well let WKRK fly under the radar for now.

 

[Capulet]

The absence of ratings does not equal audience rejection.

There's no absence of ratings. There are bad ratings, which, if continue mean absence of revenue. :

Those guys are praying for some form of recovery in November or Christmas music will look like a better format option.

 

[rubberchicken]

CBS is probably thinking that...they might as well let WKRK fly under the radar for now.

There are bad ratings, which, if continue mean absence of revenue.

I doubt CBS is thinking that. Like Capulet said, no ratings = no revenue.
The Fan has 7 hosts a day that they are paying salaries too. That's more than WNCX, more than WDOK, and more than WQAL. And that's just the hosts. That's not counting producers, reporters, update anchors, phone screeners, and so forth.

CBS is dumping a ton of money into this station. It needs to start performing a lot sooner than a year.

You can tell me you don't need ratings in sports formats to generate revenue. But if I'm a business and WKNR has a 4 and WKRK can't crack a 1, guess where I'm spending my money?

 

[Tim]

You don't always need huge ratings to generate good ad revenue.

i.e.: WFAN in NYC rarely has top 10 ratings 12+, but is usually in the top 5 in ad revenue.

Sportstalk listeners tend to be medium and upper income with good discretionary income.

Imgaine if you're a luxury car dealer, and you're advertising on a local, live sportstalk station. In a week, if 2 or 3 of that station's listeners come into your dealership and each buy an $80,000 BMW or Mercedes....do you really care if the sportstalk station has a 1 or 2 share? Uh....you care about your businesses' cash register....not Arbitron. Believe it or not, that scenerio is quite typical.

And, sportstalk listeners aren't the same as generic talk audiences with respect to age/income. Sportstalk tends to be more affluent consumers. What business doesn't want that? Not many.

With respect to WKNR -vs- 923TheFan...I agree: CBS has to begin to perform in order to survive long term. But, it has been just 3 months with no outside promotion...on a frequency that covers about 60% of the Cleveland metro. CBS has the experience and money to make it work. But, the clock is ticking.

 

[vjm]

I listen to pretty much every show all day, and I see some definitive changes that have to be made:

1. Kiley and Booms need to go. That show is just uncomfortable.

2. Baskin and Phelps really comes of as old guy radio. I appreciate that they have standing in Cleveland, but they need more fire in their discussion. Simply put, they are boring.

3. Bull and Fox - pretty good, but Dustin shows daily that he's a green talker. He always seems like he's not comfortable to have any sort of controversial thing to say. He also is sadly lacking in transitional conversation and ALWAYS relies on Adam to lead and control the conversation.

4. Ken Carmen - Quirky like most night hosts would be. He doesn't hold back, and doesn't care who he offends in the process. Probably my personal favorite on the station.

They will survive as a station, but at least 3 of these personalities will be replaced by summer of 2012.

1) Booms will implode. Always does. That show is hideous and uncomfortable. .

2) no comment-don't listen-this daypart is up against Rome anyway. Rome gets HUGE numbers.

3) Bull and Fox sound good together. Brinda and Hooley are excellent.

4) no comment don't listen - don;t listen to any radio at night anyway

Kiley and Booms are what they are. Booms is literally on his last chance, and he's teamed with the only person that has best dealt with him, along with two producers, and it's all in his hometown. If he can't get it to work, he never will. The two of them sound pretty good when you pull all of that aside. Of course, WKNR can't do much due to the must-carry of the dreadful "Mike & Mike."

Baskin and Phelps lacks any controversy whatsoever. They are close friends, they like each other, and that's the problem. It comes off as just filler programming - not bad for the weekends, but when you are going up against your competitors' most-talked-about-and-most-controversial-show in tRBS, it's awful. They either need a third cog to stoke something on the air, or blow it up. (And for the record, they only face ONE HOUR of Rome.)

Adam the Bull is phenomenal. Dustin is too green and still shows as a projection hire. I'd swap Dustin with Joe Lull, and I bet a lot of people who heard Joe fill-in last week feel the same way.

Ken Carman has the thankless job of talking sports directly opposite PBP, but he's still solid.

Weekends? Meh. Silverstein is who he is (and has the time slot he has), and Kendall Lewis has made strides in his overall recovery. Anthony Lima isn't half bad going solo; we'll see how it sound teaming him up with Lull.

The Sunday lineup has been a colossal disappointment. Why they aren't starting live programming at 7AM mystifies me. Airing the Mike Francesca hour at 9AM is an automatic dial-switcher (not because Mike's bad, just that it isn't local, and too many "66 WFAN" liners leak out over the air). And then... the pregame. Why was Phelps solo for seven weeks before he was teamed with Lull? Bring out your strongest hosts (Adam, Carman, Lull, Kiley, Phelps, Jeff Thomas and/or Ruiter) for a six-hour pregame. And don't throw your most promising host in Carman up against the actual game... egads.

The market voted in October. That station tanked bad that month. Will be real interesting to see how they do in November. Hard to believe CBS invests in a format but does no marketing. Cnat play diary manipulation games with PPM.

You contradict yourself. Because CBS has done no marketing, there's no way to legitimately say the market voted... when they most likely never knew that there was a choice to begin with. The absence of ratings does not equal audience rejection.

I bet 90% of the audience still thinks that we have a monopsony in sports radio.

Oddly enough, CBS is probably thinking that, with no NBA season in sight, months away from the return of baseball, and a year away from fighting for PBP contracts, they might as well let WKRK fly under the radar for now.

If you noticed, Booms is now a regular panelist on WOIO's "Tailgate 19" Browns pregame show, so that means he must be making at least somewhat of a positive impression...no?

I think Baskin and Phelps went the route they did to be the "anti-RBS". The whole "Talking Heads" motif is 2 guys from Cleveland sitting down, shooting the breeze, and talking sports. They purposely wanted to provide contrast to all the "drama" (be it kayfabe or otherwise) on RBS. B and P had to have some sort of part in CK's decision to scoot Fedor down to PMD and (kinda) regin in Hammer.

Dustin Fox still needs work as a radio personality, but his NE Ohio/Buckeye background gives the show some local cred. Adam the Bull is a strong and bombastic enough personality to "hold DF's hand" to start with until Fox has his radio "sea legs".

Carman's doing a solid job in the evening, and somewhere down the road, he'll be bumped up on the schedule.

Saturday is what it is, and as far as Sunday goes, I'd have Adam the Bull, Carman, and LeCharles Bentley do the pregame show, with Phelps, BSK, and Fox on postgame (Kiley can't do it, because of his WW1 Sunday Night Football commitments...he's the sideline guy). Run Fox Sports from 1-4, since your target audience is listening to the game on TAM/MMS anyway.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

I go back and forth on some of the 92.3 shows, but here's my current impression:

* I don't hear it often, as I'm not often able to when it's on, but "Kiley and Booms" isn't as bad as I thought it would be. But I can't get past Booms' Dennis Miller/Paul Lynde voice. (For you younguns, Paul was a long-time panelist on "Hollywood Squares", and "Uncle Arthur" on "Bewitched", which airs weekdays on WGN America.) I understand what K&B are doing, but it's not for me.

* I like Baskin and Phelps. Really. They're decent guys who know local sports and have natural chemistry from their own long-time friendship. But I fear A) I'm too old and B) 92.3 may need a stronger show up against tRBS.

* My unabashed fandom for Adam the Bull is well known here. He stands out so much in the lineup that he's taller than the Terminal Tower. But Dustin, though he's certainly improved, is still far too hesitant to interact with Adam, or when he does, it sounds like he's measuring his responses. Jury? Still out. Bad news for them? Hooley is pretty good, and manages to keep Fedor in check, even.

* Ken Carman is solid. No problem here.

* Joe Lull is better than I thought he'd be. His turn with Adam the other day upped the energy of that show 3 times, and that's with Adam in the studio.

* Anthony Lima has potential as a host...his "Express" in the pre-MNF spot is better than his weekend show.

There is no question that CBS Radio will have to make some adjustments in the coming year.

But pointing to the Sept/Oct PPM monthlies and suggesting the station should start playing Christmas music soon is insane.

CBS Radio's formula with these stations is to add important PBP contracts. If they do that AND are still sitting sub-1 6-plus, that's another matter. CBS is in sports radio to stay, in Cleveland and every other market.

 

[Tim]

We all think 923TheFan will eventually do very well (and move to 98.5 some day).

But, even if they pull "just" a 3% share....and cume 300,000-400,000 listeners a week...that should be enough to do better than ANY music format they could possibly run.

For sure they'll make more money than any AAA & alternative/modern rock combined.

CBS has the experience and $$$$-clout to do as well in Cleveland as they decide to be. But, OMW is right: at least one pro sports play-by-play contract is essential. My guess is it'll be the Indians.

 

[radiomayor2]

IMHO......"FAN" blew it as far as their debut timetable. If it were about 18 months ago when certain rights and talent contracts could have been in play it would have worked better.

Cleveland is, in reality, a small town. If they don't know you they DON'T KNOW YOU

 

[fingers]

I've gone back and forth-I tend to listen mostly in the late morning, I could not take any more of the RBS, I like Baskin, but Phelps is just not good-he says everything in short sentences, hard to explain-as long as Fedor or Hammer are not on, I can tolerate most of KNR.

 

[Rusty Muck]

IMHO......"FAN" blew it as far as their debut timetable. If it were about 18 months ago when certain rights and talent contracts could have been in play it would have worked better.

Cleveland is, in reality, a small town. If they don't know you they DON'T KNOW YOU

I don't think that could work. Bidding with CC/WTAM for the Browns and Indians, and WKNR for tOSU, is a crapshoot at best. There was no 100% certainty that KDKA-FM would land the Pirates, and they failed to snatch the Steelers away from CC/WDVE (which re-upped for five years). Add the Pengins on mancave/rock WXDX, and at least KDKA-FM has some linchpin PBP to hang their hat on... after a year of just talking sports.

There is no guarantee that CBS will outbid CC or WKNR for any of the three PBP rights. But they have a better shot than anyone else - WKNR, for one, has zero shot of either the Indians or Browns because: 1) their inferior night pattern, and 2) no FM sister station.

Do I think WKRK blew it with their launch? Yes. Still, to go with your theory, that would mean that the Fan launches in 2013 instead.

 

[Rusty Muck]

The absence of ratings does not equal audience rejection.

There's no absence of ratings. There are bad ratings, which, if continue mean absence of revenue. :

Even a badly-run sports station (i.e., the Salem-era WKNR) can still be an automatic ATM. Alternative rock can't bill anything meaningful to save their lives, and the format has collapsed in many major markets. That's why "radio 92.3" is no more.

And you miss the point. No one knows the station exists.

Never before in the history of mankind has there been something to reject when they never knew there was something to reject in the first place. There ARE KNR listeners that still tune in to that station out of blind loyalty, and never saw the scant coverage in the media, never saw the scattered Rapid ads, and don't participate in message boards like this. They've never heard an ad for the station on TV, radio or outdoor billboards and never have seen it mentioned on any media platforms.

They MIGHT have tuned into the station if they KNEW about it, but they clearly never did.

Why? Well, where was the marketing campaign for WKRK? Where were the TV ads, the billboards, the media saturation that CBS oh so could have easily provided? Exactly. It never materialized.

Ergo, "the absence of ratings," which IS for real.

Those guys are praying for some form of recovery in November or Christmas music will look like a better format option.

That statement is so ludicrous, it merits no response.

Chances are WKRK is being ostensibly run under the radar because, with the absence of Cavaliers basketball, there won't be much to tune into or draw an audience. I don't see WKRK's numbers making massive gains anytime soon because of that - at least until the spring.

 

[Capulet]

And you miss the point. No one knows the station exists.

Did not miss the point. You did not read my post. Scroll back....I said " they need to market " early in this thread.

You and someone else actually missed my point. Ever heard of sarcasm. ???
I never said 92.3 should play Christmas music.

I said " if they don't rebound in November " Christmas music will look like a viable option!

Thats sarcasm pal. ;D

They have a cume of 90,000. Misrable. They are not even a 1 share station 6+! That rivals the hideous ratings of 107.3 when they went AAA.

CBS isn't going to sit still and wait for a few years for a PBP contract option to open.
They want money in New York NOW, not " let's wait till we can get the Indians ".

I mentioned in another thread that sports talk doesn't sell numbers. It sells associations with major league product ( MLB,NFL, NBA). But when two stations with lousy programming are fighting over a niche format uadience it's easy for the leader to solidfy sales against a struggling upstart.

CBS won't get a refund from Arbitron. But you better believe the expectations are not being matched with the recent "tanking " monthly.

 

[AllMightyVoice]

Isn't this the worst possible time to run under the radar? This should be the time that The Fan is making an advertising blitz. Its football season and the Browns are awful, this is prime time for sports radio. If they are going to build an audience now is the time I would think. And in this age of smart phones and tablets how much difference does PBP really make in radio ratings any longer? Within the next 5 years its very likely that watching the games on your phone will be as common as sending a text. Then there is the matter of having to run with the network post-game show while the other station hits the ground running right after the game with their call in show.

OMW, I don't see where Fox is improving at all on the air. He literally often times repeats what Bull has just said. Listen for an hour and count the times he responds to Bull with the exact same words that just came out of Bull's mouth. I want to see Dustin succeed, but I just don't hear it. Bull is darn good, but right now that show isn't coming close to reaching its full potential. And you're right OMW, Hooley is doing a nice job so far at KNR, really brings a different dynamic to Cleveland radio and seems to be meshing well with Brinda and Fedor. Why do I keep thinking to myself that Bentley and The Bull has a nice ring to it??

 

[Rusty Muck]

Isn't this the worst possible time to run under the radar? This should be the time that The Fan is making an advertising blitz. Its football season and the Browns are awful, this is prime time for sports radio. If they are going to build an audience now is the time I would think. And in this age of smart phones and tablets how much difference does PBP really make in radio ratings any longer? Within the next 5 years its very likely that watching the games on your phone will be as common as sending a text. Then there is the matter of having to run with the network post-game show while the other station hits the ground running right after the game with their call in show.

I think the NBA lockout forced their hand. Does anyone remember how utterly desolate sports talk is in Cleveland between the Super Bowl and Indians Spring Training? It's beyond brutal. And THAT'S WITH THE CAVALIERS PLAYING.

I'm sorry, but because of that, it will be hard for WKRK to gain any ratings traction for awhile. CBS may be better off eating the low ratings for the winter, and hope for a rebound with the start of the Indians season.

OMW, I don't see where Fox is improving at all on the air. He literally often times repeats what Bull has just said. Listen for an hour and count the times he responds to Bull with the exact same words that just came out of Bull's mouth. I want to see Dustin succeed, but I just don't hear it. Bull is darn good, but right now that show isn't coming close to reaching its full potential. And you're right OMW, Hooley is doing a nice job so far at KNR, really brings a different dynamic to Cleveland radio and seems to be meshing well with Brinda and Fedor. Why do I keep thinking to myself that Bentley and The Bull has a nice ring to it??

I would swap Dustin with Joe Lull outright.

Let Dustin do weekends (solo and with Anthony Lima) and see if he improves that way. Seems to me like he's just trying to keep up with Adam. It was a projection hire that's slowly starting to not cut it right now.

As much as I don't mind LeCharles, he's better off as a regular contributor on all of the shows than as a co-host.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

CBS isn't going to sit still and wait for a few years for a PBP contract option to open.
They want money in New York NOW, not " let's wait till we can get the Indians ".

I also never said they're going to "sit still and wait". I said that getting the PBP contract, one of the three pro teams, is part of their startup plan for every sports radio station they are launching.

Where they have the contracts - the CBS FM sports stations are dominant...97.1 in Detroit tops the market, and 98.5 in Boston has rapidly turned the iconic WEEI into an afterthought, so much so that their high-priced afternoon driver reportedly had to take a pay cut because the ratings have faltered against "The Sports Hub".

I don't recall if 93.7's early numbers in Pittsburgh were as anemic as the opening monthlies for 92.3. It was mid-pack to low-pack, IIRC. But they waited, and the Pirates are coming in 2012.

My point is not that they're not going to do ANYTHING between now and whichever PBP contract they're going to pick up. Again, NOT my point.

My point is that the plan includes picking up the contracts, any of them, and yes, if their ratings continue in this universe (sub-1 6-plus, whatever they are getting in adult males), changes will be made, perhaps major ones...but they'll stick with the format (changes or no) until PBP shows up, just as they did in Pgh. You're not going to see "92.3 Now FM" or whatever CBS' hot FM music format is.

And again, they have not at all properly marketed this station, and I have an example of this...one of my own relatives.

I was in his car a couple of weeks ago and flipped the radio to 92.3 to listen to "Bull and Fox" while he was running an errand. I left the radio there, not on purpose, but just because I turned it down when he got back in the car and we started talking, with the radio volume far down, until I left him that day.

Fast forward to this week, where he tells me he's "discovered" this new station, and is listening a lot. He "discovered" it, of course, because I had left his car radio on it.

And this relative is a WKNR P1, by far. It's been the only station he listens to...the woman he lives with is a WDOK P1.

While we were talking about it, he expressed his disdain for Hammer. (No, really, and he couldn't find an online message board with a search party.) He says he understands what Hammer does, but he just can't stand to listen to him.

OK, anecdotal party of one here, but my relative is the kind of person who should be a prime target for The Fan, and he had no idea it existed until I accidentally left the radio in his car tuned to 92.3.

CBS won't get a refund from Arbitron. But you better believe the expectations are not being matched with the recent "tanking " monthly.

Oh, fully agreed. The ratings are low enough that there's no way they could be meeting anyone's expectations.

But "doom and gloom" here is misplaced. The station will continue as a sports talker through the time PBP shows up. The talent lineup could, at some point, see a shakeup, but it's still too early even to predict that (two monthlies). Another two or three PPM monthlies with low ratings, all bets are off.

No, I'm not suggesting they hire Drennan...that's a joke.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

I think the NBA lockout forced their hand. Does anyone remember how utterly desolate sports talk is in Cleveland between the Super Bowl and Indians Spring Training? It's beyond brutal. And THAT'S WITH THE CAVALIERS PLAYING.

And "The Browns really suck this year" can only go so far. And WKNR seems to be filling that usual role very well this year, ratings wise.

BTW, I agree that 92.3 will go for the Indians first, though they may "want" the Browns' rights (reference my earlier statements about the station's Browns-colors-inspired logo).

The day to day addition of the Indians PBP rights to their cume will be a shot in the arm, if they get the rights.

But make no mistake...CC is not going to sit by and let CBS snatch the rights. The Indians are far more important to WTAM's ratings than the Pirates were for WPGB.

 

[fingers]

Les Levine is doing 10-2 today, does Les have any interest in working for 92.3, and vice versa? WHK in the mid 90's was great sports talk, although a perfect example, they never could draw ratings, but Les does have a following.

 

[radiomayor2]

the station should NOT have debuted in 2013......My point was it should have debuted about 18 months ago..