CC suspending all AM HD? and Citadel ordered all AM IBOC to shut down?

[KB1OKL]

I got this thread sent to me, it's from the Both Sides Now Stereo Chat Board, there are some interesting things discussed in this thread:


"IBOC Interference Costs Station Sports Contract

An article in Radio & Television Business Report suggests WDFN-1130 Detroit may have lost their contract to carry the Detroit Pistons basketball games due to interference from IBOC sidebands. The article blames KMOX-1120 and WRVA-1140.

The Pistons' Director of Broadcasting confirmed to RBR that coverage issues was the reason for the change and was almost certain that the IBOC interference was involved. It is apparent their bottom line was hurt.

The games ended up on WXYT-1270/97.1, a station owned by a different company. (WDFN is a Clear Channel station; WXYT belongs to CBS)"

and:

Update:

"Because of the national exposure of this article and the financial impact to the Clear Channel owned WDFN-1130, Clear Channel has suspended or will be suspending all of its AM IBOC transmissions in the United States. Whether this suspension is temporary or permanent was not specified."

I'm not sure where the update came from.

Some of these may be old news but are still current:


"CITADEL AM STATIONS DISCONTINUE HD-AM

Citing “lackluster performance, limited benefit, and reports of significant interference,” the corporate chief engineer of Citadel Broadcasting ordered all ten stations in the company’s portfolio to cease HD-AM broadcasts. Sources within the former ABC O&O chain noted severe mutual adjacent-channel IBOC overlap adversely affecting WABC 770 New York, WJR 760 Detroit, and WSB 750 Atlanta.

The company has a total of 16 AM stations operating with HD-AM, ten of which had been operating since the FCC permitted full-power IBOC just two weeks earlier.

No decision was made as yet concerning whether to continue HD-AM at all.

The Citadel IBOC turn-off is a severe blow to the dwindling pro-AM HD herd, since even enthusiastic promoters of the system admitted that “fewer than 125” stations were operating IBOC. Industry insiders estimate the actual number is significantly fewer than that, and that the loss of the “Citadel ten” might reduce the population of IBOC operators by as much as 66%.

Meanwhile the former legendary 50,000 watt former WCFL at 1000 kHz (now all-sports WMVP) in Chicago appears unlikely to utilize IBOC at all, due to the deep nulls required in its directional pattern and critical networks in the station’s antenna phasing system."

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"PHILADELPHIA'S TURNS OFF IBOC


With the debut of its nostalgia “Sinatra Lounge” format, veteran broadcaster WHAT 1340 in Philly has turned off their IBOC sidebands. The station had previously wooed a younger demographic with an edgy talk format called “skin radio” and had thought that digital might complement the marketing effort, but that never materialized."

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"COX NIX OF HD-AM AFTER INSTALLATION AT 4 AM TRANSMITTERS

Radio World reports that “at Cox Radio, one of the industry’s largest radio groups with 67 FM and 13 AM stations, and where HD is considered a priority, AM HD-R has been turned off at the three or four stations that are outfitted, said Sterling Davis, vice-president of engineering.”

“ ‘Once we had several of our stations up and working, we turned around and shut them off,’ he said.”

The reason was objectionable hiss detected on the analog signal on a select group of car radios, according to Davis. When contacted by RW, iBiquity displayed its characteristic arrogant denial of any problem. The company’s spokeswoman, Vicky Stern, blamed the problem on the car radios for being “too wide-band.” She predicted that because “few wide-band receivers were sold…this is not a serious issue.” Ha ha ha.
The Cox AM stations still have HD-AM turned off, day and night. Davis noted that “iBiquity was claiming to be working on a solution. So since iBiquity did not address that issue we have discontinued the IBOC transmissions. Contacted by this site for comment, Mr. Davis was asked if he could confirm or deny that IBOC had been abandoned by Cox. “We had a contract with iBiquity for the operations of the units for our AMs. When they arrived, we install them, test them, make sure they meet the task, then shut them back off. We have a boss who was once a program director, and on one brand of car radio…you can hear a faint buzz. Listeners noted an immediate improvement to the quality of WHAT’s analog signal with the abandonment of IBOC."

More at:


http://bsnpubs.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=5105625&trail=40

 

[LynnW]

So, AM HD really does serve a purpose. Ibuzz interference from CBS owned KMOX caused the Pistons to move from a Clear Channel station to another CBS station.

 

[tomservo]

Maybe gaint Megatechcommcorp is finally getting it through their collective brains that mutually assured self destruction on AM at night is in no one's best interest. In fact, AM HD in any form is in no one's best interest.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

We tried to tell them, but they wouldn't listen.

Carve out a new band for both AM and FM HD Radio, and let it sink or swim, without taking existing proven AM and FM services with it. Mandatory HD only on the present bands would be the end of radio.

 

[spiritof67]

Regarding KMOX, the station re-acquired the broadcasting rights to the St. Louis Cardinals, following five years of affiliation on KTRS.

I have not heard this myself, but a friend of mine who works in radio noticed that during Cardinal broadcasts, KMOX has been turning their HD off.

 

[Savage]

Calling CQ for confirmation on the CC discontinuance of AM-HD. Can anyone source this or get independent confirmation?

I'm hopeful but this almost seems too good to be true. :-\

Hey Lynn: yeah, the IBOC hiss from KMOX caused the Pistons to move from CC's 1130 to a CBS station. 1270: the 50kw'er with a 360-degree null!! (See Detroit board, "How bad is WXYT's signal?")

 

[LynnW]

Regarding KMOX, the station re-acquired the broadcasting rights to the St. Louis Cardinals, following five years of affiliation on KTRS.

I have not heard this myself, but a friend of mine who works in radio noticed that during Cardinal broadcasts, KMOX has been turning their HD off.

The Cardinals took the broadcast rights away from themselves since the Cardinals hold a majority share of KTRS. I guess CBS could pay the Cardinals more than they could pay themselves.

 

[TheBigA]

So, AM HD really does serve a purpose. Ibuzz interference from CBS owned KMOX caused the Pistons to move from a Clear Channel station to another CBS station.

As if that was the reason why they run it? The truth is that the Pistons suck. It doesn't matter what station they're on. And people don't listen to broadcasts of teams that lose all the time. You can blame IBOC for their lousy shooting too. That doesn't make it so. CC was the real winner here. WXYT is stuck paying lots of money to broadcast a team that no one likes.

 

[KeithE4]

I wonder how much this has to do with AM-HD interference from St. Louis & Richmond, and how much this has to do with WXYT being on FM. I'll guess that it's both to a certain extent, but mostly the latter.

 

[davideduardo]

Calling CQ for confirmation on the CC discontinuance of AM-HD. Can anyone source this or get independent confirmation?

That report is a very old and inaccurate one. I checked KFI a few minutes ago, and it is in full HD mode.

Hey Lynn: yeah, the IBOC hiss from KMOX caused the Pistons to move from CC's 1130 to a CBS station. 1270: the 50kw'er with a 360-degree null!! (See Detroit board, "How bad is WXYT's signal?")

WXYT is fairly consistently the #1 station in Detroit, because it is primarily an FM. In a recent average of three books, WXYT was #1 in 18-49 and 25-54 persons in the whole market. The 1130 station gets less than a share, while WXYT-FM gets around a 6 share 12+.

 

[davideduardo]

The Cardinals took the broadcast rights away from themselves since the Cardinals hold a majority share of KTRS. I guess CBS could pay the Cardinals more than they could pay themselves.

And the night signal of the former KSD misses parts of the metro, something that probably bothered the team.

 

[spiritof67]

Regarding KMOX, the station re-acquired the broadcasting rights to the St. Louis Cardinals, following five years of affiliation on KTRS.

I have not heard this myself, but a friend of mine who works in radio noticed that during Cardinal broadcasts, KMOX has been turning their HD off.

Update: My friend heard this, and this afternoon, I heard it as well. KMOX turns off their HD specifically during the Cardinal Broadcasts.

 

[davideduardo]

Update: My friend heard this, and this afternoon, I heard it as well. KMOX turns off their HD specifically during the Cardinal Broadcasts.

That may have more to do with a "no digital" provision in the broadcast contract than with HD per se. Rights contracts that prohibit streaming in some cases forbid all forms of digital distribution, which remains the property of the team.

And if that is not the reason, HD is likely turned off to be able to do the broadcast without delay so that fans at home games can listen and those who prefer the radio audio over the TV version can listen, too.

 

[spiritof67]

In St. Louis, KMOX also broadcasts over KEZK-FM's HD-3. As I write this, the Cardinals broadcast is runnng on the HD-3, and KMOX is broadcasting without HD, so it isn't about any digital rights agreement. It's also worth noting that during pre-game show KMOX did run in HD.

As far as broadcasting without the delay for the fans at home/at the game, that certainly defeats any benefits HD would offer (I'm still snickering at Dan Mason's recent comments last week). And KEZK HD-3 has the KMOX feed delayed for well over one minute.

Has anyone else noticed their AM or FM HD signals switched off during Major Leage Baseball games?

 

[spunker88]

Thats standard protocol on many stations because of the HD delay. WCBS turns off their HD for the Yankees and WFAN turns theirs off for the Mets. I'm sure others do it as well. Still not sure why these two sports/talk stations need HD to start with.

 

[stacker]

IBOC is shut off during games for the benefit of the fans listening in the stands. The IBOC delay just won't do, if you're watching the action live.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

So what does the station do when someone sitting near the press box launches a string of profanities (when something doesn't go their team's way) so vile it would make the f, s, and c (the one that rhymes with how most pitchers usually "bat" at a ball) words seem like ones that Jesus would use in comparison?

 

[tomservo]

So what does the station do when someone sitting near the press box launches a string of profanities (when something doesn't go their team's way) so vile it would make the f, s, and c (the one that rhymes with how most pitchers usually "bat" at a ball) words seem like ones that Jesus would use in comparison?

Judging by what I've heard in years past, it gets on the air. I don't have any examples of it being on radio specifically, but I've definitely heard some salty language on televised baseball games.

This is why the fleeting expletives rule needs to be loosened. Sometimes these things just happen.

Someone earlier mentioned syncing the audio with the TV feed? Well isn't the HDTV feed delayed from the game anyway? I know their digital is delayed similar to HD.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Would shutting down the HD also put more power into the analog signal? And wouldn't that help overcome noise & building penetration problems? Sounds like a good idea to me. In fact, it's such a good idea, why not drop HD all the time?

 

[pianoplayer88key]

I've got another idea or two for the noise and building penetration problems. (One might be cost-prohibitive now, because things weren't done a better way in the first place.)

For one thing, I personally would like to see the FCC (or whoever, if they don't "step up to the plate") crack down on all the electrical devices that eliminate so much interfering RF. BTW I'm not sure what field strength limits to specify, as I don't know what the lowest naturally-occurring atmospheric / galactic noise floor is, or how far below the noise the most efficient modes of transmission remain detectable. Basically, though, I would want it so that if your radio's receive antenna is physically touching the offending device, the noise it's picking up is about 180 dB below the weakest PSK31, PSK5or whatever signal that would be detected if, on AM for example, you only had atmospheric noise to deal with, and there was no lightning activity within an 8,000 mile radius, and where there was such activity it was daytime with the D-layer fully formed.

Another idea for building penetration would now, unfortunately, be quite expensive, so I kind-of understand if it's not done with any current buildings. If it can be done with future buildings, though, that would be nice. That would be build them with materials that don't block radio reception.
Alternately, I wonder if it might be possible to mount giant antennas outside the buildings (limited of course by the size of said building), and re-radiate the signals inside? I'm thinking, for example, on a high-rise you might use a tuned AM loop antenna that takes up the entire side of the building, or for a low-profile, wide-area building use a ferrite bar antenna that consumes the entire building's length. I also wonder if this might have the added benefit of enabling pocket radios to pick up DX signals that they would never be able to hear outside because they're not sensitive enough? One thing I'm not sure how it would happen, but would love to see, would be a way to have the rebroadcast signals be much more selective, so something like an SRF-M37W could pick up a distant station on groundwave several hundred miles away just 10 kHz away from a 50kW local who has chosen the roof of that building for its transmitter site.

Of course, I definitely would be in favor of dropping HD in its current implementation. I'm not opposed to digital, it's just that this isn't the way I want it done. Some things I personally would require in a digital system would be it doesn't in any way affect DX reception of analog co-channel signals using an analog radio even when you're right next to the digital station's transmitter site, total immunity to man-made noise/static, full quality decoding without any degradation/dropouts of a broadcast signal (or whatever is intended to be transmitted) using a cheap pocket radio (that's so insensitive you can't even detect a 50kW analog signal using a 1/2-wave antenna on 540kHz from 5 miles away over a saltwater path) even if a comparatively-powered (same transmitter power, antenna, directional pattern, etc) analog signal is so weak that you can only just barely detect the presence of a carrier (too weak even for modes like PSK31, PSK5, etc) using a high-end communications receiver and a beverage antenna, and when the signal DOES get too weak to decode at full quality, it fades out with decreasing signal strength, like analog AM currently does.
Unfortunately, based on things I've read so far, it seems the laws of physics would get in the way of my requirements for a digital AM system. In that case, I would have to say I'm not in favor of digital AM. For now, I'd prefer to keep digital limited to frequencies above 1 GHz, but I still would require the full decoding when analog PSK5 is barely detectable (and too weak to identify what it is - just can only detect its carrier signal). If that can't happen, then I'd rather not have digital.