S
SayNoToIBOC
Guest
You must be pretty bored...
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
SayNoToIBOC said:
(NOTE: This is all the message said at the time I hit REPLY. I am not responsible for future edits.)
I've said in each reply to you that I'd appreciate an HONEST discussion of the topic. Not only do you apparently have no need for such honest discussion, you're not even honest about the discussion you ARE having! That's why I pointed that out.
If you won't be up front with someone who is not connected to any broadcast outlet and has no stake in the technology being discussed, how can you be up front with those you oppose?
Point made.
S
SayNoToIBOC
Guest
What have I said, that is not honest ? All I am doing is giving my opinions, then posting links to back my opinions. I don't have to be connected with any broadcast outlet, to be able to read technical articles, then give my opinions on them, like articles from Mark Ramsey (but, you don't like that, because Mark sees with flaws with HD/IBOC). Do you think, most people here are connected with some broadcast outlet ?
BTW, how many minutes was I gone ?
BTW, how many minutes was I gone ?
Davideduardo said:
The total actual live-local content of most radio stations averages only a few minutes an hour. I don't call recorded sounders, commercials, recorded bits, computer recorded "cart" cuts, or CD music cuts "live-local", I call it recorded. Live local only occours when the studio mic is on and the boradcast host or guests are talking, playing musical instruments or singing live. Everything else is recorded or comes from outside the station. All HD Radio is digitally delayed just like internet streaming anyway.
The new AACPlus codecs for internet streaming are the same ones used by iBiquity and often have much higher bitrates and better fidelity. Check out the new Winamp/shoutcast AACPlus steams and free Winamp decoder.
http://www.codingtechnologies.com/partners/index.htm
Internet stations have been doing exactly that for years! You seem totally unaware of the internet streaming competition.
The total actual live-local content of most radio stations averages only a few minutes an hour. I don't call recorded sounders, commercials, recorded bits, computer recorded "cart" cuts, or CD music cuts "live-local", I call it recorded. Live local only occours when the studio mic is on and the boradcast host or guests are talking, playing musical instruments or singing live. Everything else is recorded or comes from outside the station. All HD Radio is digitally delayed just like internet streaming anyway.
The new AACPlus codecs for internet streaming are the same ones used by iBiquity and often have much higher bitrates and better fidelity. Check out the new Winamp/shoutcast AACPlus steams and free Winamp decoder.
Also check out iBiquity's listing as an AACPlus licensee:
http://www.codingtechnologies.com/partners/index.htm
SUPERCASTER said:
The bulk of radio staitons put the programming together for a local audience. The promotions are on the streets int he local market. The contyests are for local listeners. The remotes have the local DJs at local locations. The concerts are ones you can get to in a half-hour. The songs are selected based on local research of what the local staiton's listeners want to hear. The music log is done locally by a local PD who can even tailor the playlist for a heatwave or a storm or a rainy day. The traffic reports are for local highways. The weather is the local weather. The jock lives in the same town, and knows how to pronounce the local town names correctly.
A radio station is so much more than mike time.
And many stations, HD or not, are on a permanent delay 24/7 today to be able to compy with the tough indecency rules and to avoid fines, so delay is a fact of life anyway.
What you "call" recorded is irrelevant int his case, as there is a lot more to being local than just the timliness of the jock comments.
SayNoToIBOC said:
When I say "honest discussion", I mean that I'd like to have a discussion with you that is more than just you repeating stuff you read elsewhere, solely to bolster the only reason you are even on this board...to "trash" IBOC/HD at any turn.
The thing is, I'm NOT here to promote the stuff! I have actually heard only very small amounts of IBOC-driven radio, thanks to a friend who ran some of us around in his car one day. I have no agenda. I personally believe they should have started a new band for digital over-air radio, but that'd never happen in the U.S. due to existing broadcasters' disinterest in losing their competitive signal advantage and built-up analog branding.
And I also believe ALL of the new digital technologies take time to get market share. "HD Radio" units will have to sell for a lot less than $200 for a tabletop model, and even then, it'd take years to replace the zillion cheap units out there now.
I also believe (as many others) that the current AM implementation of IBOC is flawed, so much so that stations are not allowed to use it at night right now.
So, there's MY contribution to the "honest discussion". And your little stunt the other day showed me that you're not here for that...you're here to campaign. Hey, everyone's gotta be interested in something, and there's nothing wrong with being passionately against something you don't like...it's just not what I'm interested in here, so I bow out.
S
SayNoToIBOC
Guest
Adios !
What, "little stunt was that" ?
I have no agenda either - just that I am an AM Dx'er and HD/IBOC, if ever approved for nighttime, will destroy that. So, my personal battle will continue - just take a look at the hostile responses, which are many, to HD/IOBC at rec.radio.shortwave. Looks like the only person here, with a personal agenda, is David, the Univision executive, who is going to start work on HD-3. Gosh, you think he is going to be partial ! What is wrong with posting links to factual articles - at least I back up my opinions with facts !
What, "little stunt was that" ?
I have no agenda either - just that I am an AM Dx'er and HD/IBOC, if ever approved for nighttime, will destroy that. So, my personal battle will continue - just take a look at the hostile responses, which are many, to HD/IOBC at rec.radio.shortwave. Looks like the only person here, with a personal agenda, is David, the Univision executive, who is going to start work on HD-3. Gosh, you think he is going to be partial ! What is wrong with posting links to factual articles - at least I back up my opinions with facts !
I
IBOCRocks
Guest
SayNoToIBOC said:Adios !
What, "little stunt was that" ?
I have no agenda either - just that I am an AM Dx'er and HD/IBOC, if ever approved for nighttime, will destroy that. So, my personal battle will continue - just take a look at the hostile responses, which are many, to HD/IOBC at rec.radio.shortwave. Looks like the only person here, with a personal agenda, is David, the Univision executive, who is going to start work on HD-3. Gosh, you think he is going to be partial ! What is wrong with posting links to factual articles - at least I back up my opinions with facts !
Right. Just as partial as someone calling themselves "SayNoToIBOC". You and David are cut from the same cloth. Difference is that David actually has real experience, where you have none.
It's OK, though. It's good for a laugh!
I
IBOCRocks
Guest
I'll admit I have a bias. Never said I didn't!
That's the difference. SayNo seems to think that his opinions are somehow "better" than David's, when really they aren't. They are presenting opposite ends of a discussion, both of which have a heavy bias. The only difference is that David has actual, proveable experience in the field, while SayNo hasn't even listened to it.
That's the difference. SayNo seems to think that his opinions are somehow "better" than David's, when really they aren't. They are presenting opposite ends of a discussion, both of which have a heavy bias. The only difference is that David has actual, proveable experience in the field, while SayNo hasn't even listened to it.
SayNoToIBOC said:Adios !
What, "little stunt was that" ?
I have no agenda either - just that I am an AM Dx'er and HD/IBOC, if ever approved for nighttime, will destroy that. So, my personal battle will continue - just take a look at the hostile responses, which are many, to HD/IOBC at rec.radio.shortwave. Looks like the only person here, with a personal agenda, is David, the Univision executive, who is going to start work on HD-3. Gosh, you think he is going to be partial ! What is wrong with posting links to factual articles - at least I back up my opinions with facts !
Many of the facts I use come from acutally operating HD stations, or from Arbitron (which is controlled by a contract and which I can not link to) and internal research (we talk in a highly organized way withy about 300 thousand of our listeners a year) and they come from nealrly 50 years of running successful radio staitons. And it comes from working with a thousand or so very talented broadcasters, each qualified in thier own right. And it comes from beloning to industry associations like NAB, where we talk about the industry.
I have plenty of facts. However, you can not have access to most of them because you are not a broadcaster, not subscribed to Inside Radio, Arbitron, not in NAB or RAB, not in the SBE, never installed a transmitter, hired a jock, sweated while waiting for a book. You are a DXer. So let's focus on that.
Night listening to AM is about 1/4 the level of daytime in the 7 to Midnight hours, and less than 1/15th in Midnight to 5 AM. Advertisers do not buy night radio, AM or FM, very much (most spots heard there are bonus spots or really cheap ROS spots). Night listening on AM is hampered by a reduction of thd coverage area of 99.5% of US AMs... what is called the interference free contour. Usually, clear groundwave on any station is greater by day than night. Except for a handful of clear channel stations. So listening is reduced on AM at night by more limited coverage and by lower listening to AM and to radio.
Nearly no listening in any market is to out of market AMs at night. There is nothing lost if this listening is blocked, as it does not exist to begin with. So we are going to try to do something with local listening to make it viable for a while more. And that is HD!
S
SayNoToIBOC
Guest
You have not posted one link, to back up your "facts", or should I say, Univision executive biased personal opinions - you are busted, and not worth responding to your repetitive diatribes...
autopaint-1 said:
What about the Federal Reserve? That's ALWAYS been a privately held company. If you think FCC will bend on any regulations when something becomes "public domain" ...because it's obvious, then you're living your life with the shades down and your eyes wide shut.
I'd go on, but hey, I'm not going to be a total joykill today.
[edit] I will add though that I think it's a joke that David Eduardo (you) using Arbitron numbers to try to proove anything. While I do agree with a lot of what you say when you're not ranting like a toddler, I don't think listener statistics cut it. Surveys on the other hand would, surley you have access to some UNBIASED numbers you are allowed to use that would stand up to scrutiny of those like John Zogby? (sorry, arbitron doesnt count) [/edit]
1
1q2w3e
Guest
SayNoToIBOC said:
So how many people that ACTUALLY HAVE HANDS ON EXPERIENCE do you not repsond to now?? You have your head sooo hidden in the sand (or another dark spot).
OPEN YOUR MIND.... Hvae a DISCUSSION instead of trying to TELL people what to do... even though you have NO first hand knowledge.
And can you try to derail another post????
Grow up!
S
SayNoToIBOC
Guest
Posting links to professionally written, factual articles is hardly telling anyone, what to do - no one is being forced to view any articles...
DavidEduardo said:
A great point David. Now think about it from this angle... If internet radio is not providing this content, is it good for the longetivity of interest in local content when the majority of it's providers see themselfs instead as frequency coverage owners? Would you admit that the lack of local content on internet radio (on a percentage basis) is hurting local content providers?
What do you think will happen to local content as people slowly move into these new mediums of content delivery? Do you think that the perceptive value of local content is already declining as these new mediums are taking away from the main source of local content's channels even now? Do you think that if a move is made by local content providers immediatly - to bring local content to these new mediums - that they will be able to survive the unforseeable future yet still provide the same (or better/worse) content?
I'm honestly interested if what you have to say, because imo you're the only person in this thread that can actually do something to help the current local content provider's situation.
Jesse Graffam said:
The Federal Reserve is not a privately held company. It is a government department or agency. It regulates the economy, and administers the money supply.
Arbitron is the currency for radio. It is the basis for all the ad sales that are quantitatively based. Most of the $20 plus billion in radio ad sales are based on Arbitron. The current diary based survey method will be replaced by the meteer, which yields almost identical AQH listening levels, as well as being a faster delivery system.
As to audience size, Arbitron is what it is. There is no other, and nobody feels a real need for it being replaced.
If you do not like Arbitron, but ask for "unbiased" data, where would you suggest we get that?
The research stations use to program is highly proprietary. Most of it is given to employees of stations with a non-disclosure agreement attached.
Why would Zogby not approve of Arbitron? It uses accepted sampling techniques and proper statistical methods, and is audited by an independent panel of researchers and statisticians every year; nobody audits the Zogby polls.
Advertisers like Arbitron and radio stations like it. Why do you not like it?
bzzt wrong. it's an organization made up of privatly owned banks, the vast majority of stock owned by 13 familys. you clearly know nothing about it other than they regulate the value of your (well, thier) money & your debt. by the way, there hasn't been a decision that the Board of Governers have made within the last 100 years that hasn't been unanimous. and you WONDER why thier note (aka the us dollar) is only worth 3% what it was 100 years ago? i would imagine someone in your position would want to protect thier investiments by knowing such things.DavidEduardo said:
look it up:
http://www.federalreserveonline.org/
among many other things of interest you might (or might not) enjoy reading in the Federal Reserve Act, is Section 4, Sub-Section 4... i quote
etc, etc... Not only the Federal Reserve system, but the actual Federal Reserve Banks themselfs are privately owned and controlled, including the power to ammend the Federal Reserve Act with zero Congressional oversight.
next...
I'll believe it when I see it, they've been talking about it for almost 20 years. Then we can discuss why it is actually accurate or not. Not that it shows the same numbers as an obviously flawed numbers game. (which goes far beond what Arbitron does, but that's a whole other thread)
How about from multiple truely indipendant sources that have correlating results. Besides, have you seen ANY numbers from Arbitron that can statistically proove without a doubt this statement you made:
Do you honestly believe that, and why?
my company too, what else is new?
Actually Zogby's polls are always audited by multitudes of industry peers, his polls are open source for them, many of which work at other firms. They LIKE what they do. Because they are so good, they audited Edison's 2004 exit polls which were the first indipendant (not!) election exit polls in the USA - in addition to also being auditing by industry peers. (in fact the evidence was so conclusive, RFK mentions it in his Rolling Stone article) How much "better" can Arbitron be than Edison Media? I wonder what *would* happen if Zogby was chosen to audit Arbitron. I would definately be interested in finding out... Wouldn't you? Who audits Arbitron now?
I have nothing against Arbitron. In fact one of my companies (radioio.com,llc..) used to be a customer of thiers. But then again that was before they went backwards from REAL stats, to a CLEARLY innacurate sample method (especially with our own real numbers staring us in the face). But that's thier business.
I don't see any reason at all radio station owners or ad-agencies would not like artificial inflation of a market. But what about the advertisers? Well... follow your nose to the cash... Radio ad sales are dropping, and internet ad sales have now surpassed OOH (billboards, etc) & radio combined. If you want to apply that to internet radio, just look at the demographics of internet radio. Any radio station on earth would be GLAD to enjoy the average demographic of internet radio listeners (much less radioio's which are primo, believe me). It's not that advertisers are spending less money, on the contrary... there is a real trend for over 5 years of a shift in spending away from radio as you know it.
Like i said earlier though, this is not just Arbitron's fault, and that warrents another thread, i'm sorry for touching on it as much as i have.
You said
bzzt wrong. it's an organization made up of privatly owned banks, the vast majority of stock owned by 13 familys. you clearly know nothing about it other than they regulate the value of your (well, thier) money & your debt. by the way, there hasn't been a decision that the Board of Governers have made within the last 100 years that hasn't been unanimous. and you WONDER why thier note (aka the us dollar) is only worth 3% what it was 100 years ago? i would imagine someone in your position would want to protect thier investiments by knowing such things.
-> the Fed is the central banking system of the US, to which private banks belong as a part of a national banking system. the member banks are private, but the Fed itself is governmental
-> The Federal Reserve System is a quasi-governmental banking system composed of (1) a presidentially-appointed Board of Governors in Washington, D.C.; (2) the Federal Open Market Committee; (3) twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation; and (4) numerous private member banks
-> Keywords: governmental banking system with private members.
You said.
I'll believe it when I see it, they've been talking about it for almost 20 years. Then we can discuss why it is actually accurate or not. Not that it shows the same numbers as an obviously flawed numbers game. (which goes far beond what Arbitron does, but that's a whole other thread)
-> The PPM has been in use for nearly 5 years in market tests. It is in month 14 in Houston, and I get the data every month, along with diary data.
You said
How about from multiple truely indipendant sources that have correlating results.
->I can do a phone survey, and do every week, that correlates totally with Arbitron. It is pretty easy to duplicate some aspects of methodology and get the same results.
You said
Besides, have you seen ANY numbers from Arbitron that can statistically proove without a doubt this statement you made:
-> If this does not show up in the diaries, then it is not happening. The diary records every staiton a person listens to, and there is no instruction to only put in local stations or off air stations or whatever. Some people even put in TV int he radio diary.
-> So don't ask for that which can not be given. If I am going to spend $5 million a year, to name a figure, on inside research, I am not goinng to share it with competitors. But I can share general findings, because all of us in radio find the same stuff... that is why we are for HD.
-> Tonight, a large group of 16 to 28 year olds said only 25% had iPods, only 16% listened to music on the computer, and less than 10% ever listened to streaming.
-> Zogby probably does not have the staff or the raido expertise to do it. Most Zogby emplyees are provided by local independent bureaus... all Arbitron staffers are Arbitron employees, because they work all year long.
You said
I would definately be interested in finding out... Wouldn't you? Who audits Arbitron now?
-> the MRC, formed by advertisers and agencies, who name some of the best in the field to be board members. Most are heads of department at universities, etc.
-> Arbitron has not changed methodology since it started in 1965. They have enhanced it with additinal stratification variables, but no change in the survey. Why do you think they changed?
You said
I don't see any reason at all radio station owners or ad-agencies would not like artificial inflation of a market. But what about the advertisers? Well... follow your nose to the cash... Radio ad sales are dropping,
-> Wrong agian. radio ad sales are up. Will be up 3.4% this year, and are now over 8% of ad expenditures, first time since the mid-50's, in fact. And radio usage can be verified with simple phone surveys.
You said
and internet ad sales have now surpassed OOH (billboards, etc) & radio combined.
-> Whatever. Radio has not lost billings, and is growing.
You said
If you want to apply that to internet radio, just look at the demographics of internet radio. Any radio station on earth would be GLAD to enjoy the average demographic of internet radio listeners (much less radioio's which are primo, believe me). It's not that advertisers are spending less money, on the contrary... there is a real trend for over 5 years of a shift in spending away from radio as you know it.
Radio is up about 15% in the last 5 years. In some markets, like LA, it is up even more... over 20%.
]
bzzt wrong. it's an organization made up of privatly owned banks, the vast majority of stock owned by 13 familys. you clearly know nothing about it other than they regulate the value of your (well, thier) money & your debt. by the way, there hasn't been a decision that the Board of Governers have made within the last 100 years that hasn't been unanimous. and you WONDER why thier note (aka the us dollar) is only worth 3% what it was 100 years ago? i would imagine someone in your position would want to protect thier investiments by knowing such things.
-> the Fed is the central banking system of the US, to which private banks belong as a part of a national banking system. the member banks are private, but the Fed itself is governmental
-> The Federal Reserve System is a quasi-governmental banking system composed of (1) a presidentially-appointed Board of Governors in Washington, D.C.; (2) the Federal Open Market Committee; (3) twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation; and (4) numerous private member banks
-> Keywords: governmental banking system with private members.
You said.
I'll believe it when I see it, they've been talking about it for almost 20 years. Then we can discuss why it is actually accurate or not. Not that it shows the same numbers as an obviously flawed numbers game. (which goes far beond what Arbitron does, but that's a whole other thread)
-> The PPM has been in use for nearly 5 years in market tests. It is in month 14 in Houston, and I get the data every month, along with diary data.
You said
How about from multiple truely indipendant sources that have correlating results.
->I can do a phone survey, and do every week, that correlates totally with Arbitron. It is pretty easy to duplicate some aspects of methodology and get the same results.
You said
Besides, have you seen ANY numbers from Arbitron that can statistically proove without a doubt this statement you made:
Do you honestly believe that, and why?
-> If this does not show up in the diaries, then it is not happening. The diary records every staiton a person listens to, and there is no instruction to only put in local stations or off air stations or whatever. Some people even put in TV int he radio diary.
my company too, what else is new?
-> So don't ask for that which can not be given. If I am going to spend $5 million a year, to name a figure, on inside research, I am not goinng to share it with competitors. But I can share general findings, because all of us in radio find the same stuff... that is why we are for HD.
-> Tonight, a large group of 16 to 28 year olds said only 25% had iPods, only 16% listened to music on the computer, and less than 10% ever listened to streaming.
Actually Zogby's polls are always audited by multitudes of industry peers, his polls are open source for them, many of which work at other firms. They LIKE what they do. Because they are so good, they audited Edison's 2004 exit polls which were the first indipendant (not!) election exit polls in the USA - in addition to also being auditing by industry peers. (in fact the evidence was so conclusive, RFK mentions it in his Rolling Stone article) How much "better" can Arbitron be than Edison Media? I wonder what *would* happen if Zogby was chosen to audit Arbitron.
-> Zogby probably does not have the staff or the raido expertise to do it. Most Zogby emplyees are provided by local independent bureaus... all Arbitron staffers are Arbitron employees, because they work all year long.
You said
I would definately be interested in finding out... Wouldn't you? Who audits Arbitron now?
-> the MRC, formed by advertisers and agencies, who name some of the best in the field to be board members. Most are heads of department at universities, etc.
I have nothing against Arbitron. In fact one of my companies (radioio.com,llc..) used to be a customer of thiers. But then again that was before they went backwards from REAL stats, to a CLEARLY innacurate sample method (especially with our own real numbers staring us in the face). But that's thier business.
-> Arbitron has not changed methodology since it started in 1965. They have enhanced it with additinal stratification variables, but no change in the survey. Why do you think they changed?
You said
I don't see any reason at all radio station owners or ad-agencies would not like artificial inflation of a market. But what about the advertisers? Well... follow your nose to the cash... Radio ad sales are dropping,
-> Wrong agian. radio ad sales are up. Will be up 3.4% this year, and are now over 8% of ad expenditures, first time since the mid-50's, in fact. And radio usage can be verified with simple phone surveys.
You said
and internet ad sales have now surpassed OOH (billboards, etc) & radio combined.
-> Whatever. Radio has not lost billings, and is growing.
You said
If you want to apply that to internet radio, just look at the demographics of internet radio. Any radio station on earth would be GLAD to enjoy the average demographic of internet radio listeners (much less radioio's which are primo, believe me). It's not that advertisers are spending less money, on the contrary... there is a real trend for over 5 years of a shift in spending away from radio as you know it.
Radio is up about 15% in the last 5 years. In some markets, like LA, it is up even more... over 20%.
]
Not what I expected of you Dave. You didnt address or disprove most of my comments.
Least of all the makeup of the Federal Reserve system. The Fed itself is NOT governmental. In fact the only limitation on membership to the Board of Governers is that one has not been a congressman or congresswoman. That further protects themselfs from any congressional oversight. They make thier own law, and reserve the exclusive rights to create/edit/remove things from it. You mentioned the Board of Governers is chosen by the President, that's true but the Board of Governers makes the recomendations and there are several ways they can bypass the President. Not to mention the Office of the Presidency isn't exactly anti-corporation in the last 100 years. Have you read the news since then? You also didnt even read the quote from the Federal Reserve Act or something, the part where it allows the Federal Reserve Banks themselfs to be corporatized. Guess what? All 12 are privately owned corporate banks, in fact they have much more legal power than any other type of corporation in the country.
But fine, go ahead and open your eyes wide shut and see if I care. Let's see how much my gold is worth against your Federal Reserve notes in another 25 years, assuming there isn't a national emergency (or worse) and they actually let you convert your notes back into gold - completely at thier discretion.
Next you claim Arbitron's "indipendant" auditing is done by a group that is selected by [only very large, i bet] ad agencies themselfs. : Now, that seems very benefitial to them if they were to inflate the price, because they are pushing out the little guy. The extra cost doesn't matter, if they can use it to gain an upper hand. DUH! That's like economics 101.
You're also saying you do your own research, but that you use very similar methods to Arbitron. How could that possably be used to corroborate Arbitron's methods? I wasn't asking if the numbers were the same, i was asking if you had a way to corroborate the methods they used, such as using a completely different method and seeing if the results are the same. If both methods are sound, you should see the same results. If one or another isnt, you wont. Something tells me you're not interested in disproving a system that encourages inflation which makes you more money. Big surprise, not.
Your telephone surveys, I assume, use phone-number lists that are taken from your database of call-ins, or farmed in one way or another through fm/am/tv/advertising and from people that take surveys to make money. How accurate is that? Myself, I havn't used an FM radio in over 15 years easily, not even once. I'm also not into searching out for surveys to take, but I don't turn down something I'm interested in, like broadcasting. Do people like me show up in your surveys, and do you just throw out my responce? Is the criteria that you use to invalidate an entry artifically helping your cause?
My point is... anyone can put together a survey that can prove some point you want to prove. But so what? Wouldn't you rather know the real truth?
I'm now more convinced than ever that Arbitron has helped contribute more to the FM ad bubble than anyone else. They got some great help sure, but thier monopoly enables it to happen. And the only check & balance stands to gain if the numbers are artifically inflated.
And in reguard to Arbitron changing how they come up with thier statistics, they HAVE and you're wrong. They used to pull down the actual log files from hundreds of internet broadcast networks. What they then did was shut down that system claiming it cost them too much to download the log files - even tho people were paying a PREMIUM which scaled upwards on useage. They changed it to a survey which interpolates it's findings on a clearly WRONG method of sampling how many people listen to internet radio. And now that service only has 5 customers, and I really doubt that's only because Ando Media's Webcast Metrics is cheaper, because the 5 customers on Arbitron are not on Webcast Metrics. All 5 of them sell advertising. GO FIGURE!
And you bring up the PPM tests that I'm well aware of. I don't want to get into this any further because I'm going to start talking about how reach is calculated. Trust me, I know how screwed up the formulas are... I personally headed the project and coded much of the backend to a system for buying/selling advertising that replaced software that cost $10million to build in the first place. You don't want to challenge me on this.
Least of all the makeup of the Federal Reserve system. The Fed itself is NOT governmental. In fact the only limitation on membership to the Board of Governers is that one has not been a congressman or congresswoman. That further protects themselfs from any congressional oversight. They make thier own law, and reserve the exclusive rights to create/edit/remove things from it. You mentioned the Board of Governers is chosen by the President, that's true but the Board of Governers makes the recomendations and there are several ways they can bypass the President. Not to mention the Office of the Presidency isn't exactly anti-corporation in the last 100 years. Have you read the news since then? You also didnt even read the quote from the Federal Reserve Act or something, the part where it allows the Federal Reserve Banks themselfs to be corporatized. Guess what? All 12 are privately owned corporate banks, in fact they have much more legal power than any other type of corporation in the country.
But fine, go ahead and open your eyes wide shut and see if I care. Let's see how much my gold is worth against your Federal Reserve notes in another 25 years, assuming there isn't a national emergency (or worse) and they actually let you convert your notes back into gold - completely at thier discretion.
Next you claim Arbitron's "indipendant" auditing is done by a group that is selected by [only very large, i bet] ad agencies themselfs. :
Now, that seems very benefitial to them if they were to inflate the price, because they are pushing out the little guy. The extra cost doesn't matter, if they can use it to gain an upper hand. DUH! That's like economics 101.You're also saying you do your own research, but that you use very similar methods to Arbitron. How could that possably be used to corroborate Arbitron's methods? I wasn't asking if the numbers were the same, i was asking if you had a way to corroborate the methods they used, such as using a completely different method and seeing if the results are the same. If both methods are sound, you should see the same results. If one or another isnt, you wont. Something tells me you're not interested in disproving a system that encourages inflation which makes you more money.
Big surprise, not.Your telephone surveys, I assume, use phone-number lists that are taken from your database of call-ins, or farmed in one way or another through fm/am/tv/advertising and from people that take surveys to make money. How accurate is that? Myself, I havn't used an FM radio in over 15 years easily, not even once. I'm also not into searching out for surveys to take, but I don't turn down something I'm interested in, like broadcasting. Do people like me show up in your surveys, and do you just throw out my responce? Is the criteria that you use to invalidate an entry artifically helping your cause?
My point is... anyone can put together a survey that can prove some point you want to prove. But so what? Wouldn't you rather know the real truth?
I'm now more convinced than ever that Arbitron has helped contribute more to the FM ad bubble than anyone else. They got some great help sure, but thier monopoly enables it to happen. And the only check & balance stands to gain if the numbers are artifically inflated.
And in reguard to Arbitron changing how they come up with thier statistics, they HAVE and you're wrong. They used to pull down the actual log files from hundreds of internet broadcast networks. What they then did was shut down that system claiming it cost them too much to download the log files - even tho people were paying a PREMIUM which scaled upwards on useage. They changed it to a survey which interpolates it's findings on a clearly WRONG method of sampling how many people listen to internet radio. And now that service only has 5 customers, and I really doubt that's only because Ando Media's Webcast Metrics is cheaper, because the 5 customers on Arbitron are not on Webcast Metrics. All 5 of them sell advertising. GO FIGURE!
And you bring up the PPM tests that I'm well aware of. I don't want to get into this any further because I'm going to start talking about how reach is calculated. Trust me, I know how screwed up the formulas are... I personally headed the project and coded much of the backend to a system for buying/selling advertising that replaced software that cost $10million to build in the first place. You don't want to challenge me on this.
- Status