Christmas Music

[db59]

Talk Dude, I think that the PD of 3WS has no knowledge of what music his audience wants to hear. I think his MD does. She's their demo. That is especially true of Christmas music. Sherri is way more in tune with the audience and Pittsburgh. She's been here long enough, at least 2 decades.

That is the point I'm trying to make. We get to hear Christmas music 5-6 weeks tops. Why does someone in a corporate position have to make the decision of what gets played over someone like Sheri on the air who knows what the listeners like or expect to hear during the Xmas season. He has even stopped the all-request lunchtime hour during the Xmas music season. When 3WS first started playing all Christmas music around 10 years ago, they really got into promoting it. Remember their "Home For the Holidays" CD's that came out every year, plus their promotion of the "Ultimate Christmas" series as well. They played such a wide variety of artists, from Bing Crosby to the Barenaked Ladies, and as far as I know, listeners loved it. I influenced many of my friends to listen to 3WS during the holiday season because of the great Xmas music. They always had a better variety of songs than WLTJ or WSHH. But that was under a different PD. This new guy just doesn't get it. Hey, he fired Jim & Teresa right before the holidays. What does that tell you??

 

[apostate]

When I mention that Dave Edgar was PD at B-94, I mean that he was Program Director, not Production Director. He arrived in 1992 from Washington, to do production. Again, I'm not saying whether the station is well-programmed, but Dave spent plenty of time in the market, and programmed the top 40 that logically feeds listeners to classic hits as the music and listeners age.

It may be bad, but it's not bad because the PD lacks experience in the market or the demo.

 

[Talk_Dude]

When I mention that Dave Edgar was PD at B-94, I mean that he was Program Director, not Production Director. He arrived in 1992 from Washington, to do production. Again, I'm not saying whether the station is well-programmed, but Dave spent plenty of time in the market, and programmed the top 40 that logically feeds listeners to classic hits as the music and listeners age.

It may be bad, but it's not bad because the PD lacks experience in the market or the demo.

You're missing my point completely. It's not how many years someone spent programming a station by reading numbers off of a chart. It's about someone having the so-called "golden gut" instincts that the entertainment people I mentioned earlier had. It's an innate talent, one of those things like perfect pitch that some people are blessed with and others are not.

You used the word "logically". That is, I think, where you're missing the point. This isn't about logic and thinking. It's not something that a Vulcan would be good at. This is about artistry, passion, emotion, and empathy for the audience. It's about relating to an audience on a non-logical level. That's why words like "instinct" are used to describe the skill.

Now, maybe the PD has the talent and instincts, but is blocked from using them by the suits who run things. Or, maybe the PD is one of the suits who has been doing it by the numbers for a long, long time because that's all he can do. I don't know. I don't care. All I know is that you can no more be a good station programmer without lots of raw talent and instinct than you can be an entertaining "personality" disc jockey without raw talent and instinct.

You can teach almost anyone to speak with clear diction. You can't teach someone to be funny. In the same way, you can teach anyone to copy items from a list based on test numbers next to the items, but you can't teach them to make an entertaining playlist unless they have the knack.

 

[apostate]

No, you are missing the point. My posts refer to those posters who indicate that 3WS is bolloxed up because the PD isn't from Pittsburgh and not in the demo, while Sherry Van Dyke is both of those. That's simply not true.

Further, you reply that production has nothing to do with programming, indicating you hadn't really read the post before you replied. No one ever said production had anything to do with selecting music; certainly I didn't, but I didn't see it from anyone else, either.

My point is simply that 3WS is not deficient only because the PD is inexperienced in the market or the demo. Please don't try to put words in my mouth or to change the scope or scale of the things I post.

I also get the idea that you believe there are savants out there who can intuit what people want. All I can say to that one, is I'd rather be lucky than good. Show me some who've done it more than once. Very few and far between. Certainly Ed Sullivan wasn't one of them.

 

[Talk_Dude]

No, you are missing the point. My posts refer to those posters who indicate that 3WS is bolloxed up because the PD isn't from Pittsburgh and not in the demo, while Sherry Van Dyke is both of those. That's simply not true.

Further, you reply that production has nothing to do with programming, indicating you hadn't really read the post before you replied. No one ever said production had anything to do with selecting music; certainly I didn't, but I didn't see it from anyone else, either.

When I read the words you typed that I boldfaced below, I took it to mean that had some sort of relevance, since it was the lead sentence of the paragraph. Are you saying that what you said about the PD's experience at doing production was just an irrelevant aside you threw in, and meant for it to be ignored?

The PD at 3WS was at doing production at B-94 when I was there, beginning in 1992. He later served as PD at the B, and was there for 8 1/2 years. He, too, is in their demo. I'm not saying it's well-programmed, or that it's poorly programmed, but doesn't 3WS cater to folks who listened to B-94 when they were younger?

My point is simply that 3WS is not deficient only because the PD is inexperienced in the market or the demo. Please don't try to put words in my mouth or to change the scope or scale of the things I post.

I wasn't saying it was because the PD was inexperienced about the market or demographic. I was saying it was because he's just not very good. Someone can do something badly for a long, long time. That just means that they've had a lot of experience doing something badly. And, just living within the confines of a geographic area doesn't automatically make one an expert on the people in the area. Some folks move into a new area and get to know their neighbors right away. Others move in and remain strangers for decades. I don't know whether they guy at 3WS is the former or the latter. I only know that if they guy was really good, then their music selection would be better.

I also get the idea that you believe there are savants out there who can intuit what people want. All I can say to that one, is I'd rather be lucky than good. Show me some who've done it more than once. Very few and far between. Certainly Ed Sullivan wasn't one of them.

I wouldn't go so far as to call them "savants", but close to it. As I said, there were many people in the world of entertainment and show business who displayed a knack for knowing what the public wanted, and were very successful thanks to that skill. Flo Ziegfield had that gift in the days of vaudeville. Louis B. Mayer was reputed to be able to tell which scripts would make successful movies and which ones wouldn't. That ability helped make MGM one of the top movie studios of the 1930's. In the world of popular music recording, Sam Philips and Berry Gordy were both reputed to be able to spot talent and tell who had what it took to become stars and who didn't. People like Phil Spector had reputations for being able to tell which songs from the Brill Building songwriters had hit potential and which ones didn't. Dick Clark was reputed to be able to "pick the hits" out of all the songs that were released. Nobody gave Alan Freed or Porky Chedwick or Terry Lee auditorium testing data for the songs they picked to play.

Despite an almost total lack of personal talent, Ed Sullivan had the knack for knowing what acts to book and what acts to pass on. His show lasted on TV from 1948 to 1971, thanks to his ability to accurately predict what the audience wanted to see. Fred Silverman was reputed to be a genius at picking which TV shows audiences would like and which ones they wouldn't, though that reputation was tarnished later in his career.

If you want me to name individuals who have successfully programmed radio stations in modern time by the seat of their pants instead of by reading data off of market reports, I can't. First, I'm not a radio insider who knows PD's who work at non-corporate owned stations. Second, the number of stations that aren't corporate-owned and managed by the numbers is pretty slim.

It always breaks me up when someone suggests things aren't working well because no one gets the chance to try to do something a different way, and the responses amount to, "Oh yeah! Well name me the names of people who were successful doing it the way that no one gets to do it."

 

[Raymond]

Now, maybe the PD has the talent and instincts, but is blocked from using them by the suits who run things.

Well, I think a program director with real talent controls the suits. He can manipulate them with knowledge and talent. David Edgar does not have that talent or gut instinct to run a successful radio station, let alone 6!

Let's look at history. B94's numbers went straight down the drain under Edgar's reign (and were at its lowest towards the end of his time at the B). Look for more of the same for 3ws. And yes, I do believe Sherri Vandyke has more instinct and feel/understanding for the station she's been on for the last 20 years. More so than a clueless pd/om who will only listen to outside consultants because he wants to keep his gig. He is just ignorant when it comes to the Pittsburgh market. Both in the 90's and now.

 

[Boss Radio]

We're leaping to these conclusions based on "Dominick the Donkey?"

 

[dB]

We're leaping to these conclusions based on "Dominick the Donkey?"

I think I saw "Frosty the Snowman" referenced too.

But maybe that was in another thread.

 

[Raymond]

We're leaping to these conclusions based on "Dominick the Donkey?"

Boss, just posting fact (supported by past Arbitrons). No leaping and Dominick isn't really a factor in my posts. Just talking about history and how it'll repeat itself.

 

[Boss Radio]

To my ears, 3WS has gotten consistently worse over the past several years, yet the ratings are higher than they've ever been. The revamped music mix doesn't appeal to me, but obviously others like it and don't mind that voicetracking has made the presentation even more generic.

They have the format to themselves and PPM favors "classic hits" stations, so I really wouldn't expect to see any big dip in ratings, no matter who the PD is. 3WS is pretty much on auto-pilot.

 

[Parttimer]

No, you are missing the point. My posts refer to those posters who indicate that 3WS is bolloxed up because the PD isn't from Pittsburgh and not in the demo, while Sherry Van Dyke is both of those. That's simply not true.

Further, you reply that production has nothing to do with programming, indicating you hadn't really read the post before you replied. No one ever said production had anything to do with selecting music; certainly I didn't, but I didn't see it from anyone else, either.

When I read the words you typed that I boldfaced below, I took it to mean that had some sort of relevance, since it was the lead sentence of the paragraph. Are you saying that what you said about the PD's experience at doing production was just an irrelevant aside you threw in, and meant for it to be ignored?

The PD at 3WS was at doing production at B-94 when I was there, beginning in 1992. He later served as PD at the B, and was there for 8 1/2 years. He, too, is in their demo. I'm not saying it's well-programmed, or that it's poorly programmed, but doesn't 3WS cater to folks who listened to B-94 when they were younger?

He's telling you that he worked with the guy, and when, and what the guy was doing when they worked together.

I think everyone else that read that pretty much figured it out.

 

[corporateradiosucks]

Let's look at history. B94's numbers went straight down the drain under Edgar's reign (and were at its lowest towards the end of his time at the B). Look for more of the same for 3ws. And yes,

Yeah, but is that all his fault, or was it changes in the music? It's pretty hard to put Nirvana and Dr Dre on the B94 of that time period. What acceptable music he was left with basically changed the station from a teens/20s station into a station for people in their 30s.

Pop (Britney, Backstreet etc) came back strong just as he was leaving. Again, I'm sure he could have maybe made better decisions, but the fact is that no one works in a vacuum.

 

[Talk_Dude]

We're leaping to these conclusions based on "Dominick the Donkey?"

No, we're discussing stuff because discussing stuff is fun.

We're leaping to these conclusions based on "Dominick the Donkey?"

I think I saw "Frosty the Snowman" referenced too.

But maybe that was in another thread.

"Frosty the Snowman" and "Sleigh Ride" were mentioned as being songs that had absolutely nothing to do with Christmas. Again, this is a discussion of radio, not rocket science or life and death.

 

[Raymond]

Yeah, but is that all his fault, or was it changes in the music? It's pretty hard to put Nirvana and Dr Dre on the B94 of that time period. What acceptable music he was left with basically changed the station from a teens/20s station into a station for people in their 30s.

Yes, Corporateradio. Once again, if a guy (or gal) is talented enough, they instinctively know what to play on their radio station. That's what makes a truly talented person. History showed it's glaring he does not have that talent. Nodding yes to the suits, he has.

Enough said.

 

[loeper]

on the topic of songs that have nothing to do with Christmas...how did "My favorite things? from the Sound of Music get to be a christmas song? Christmas is never mentioned in the song or duirng the play. also, "Santa Baby" has overtaken the "Little Drummber Boy" as the Christmass song that makes me want to drive into a bridge abutment. It's playing in EVERY store you do into .

 

[almaniac27]

on the topic of songs that have nothing to do with Christmas...how did "My favorite things? from the Sound of Music get to be a christmas song? Christmas is never mentioned in the song or duirng the play. also, "Santa Baby" has overtaken the "Little Drummber Boy" as the Christmass song that makes me want to drive into a bridge abutment. It's playing in EVERY store you do into .

How about "Winter Wonderland"? or "Same Old Lang Syne"? Or especially "Baby It's Cold Outside", the date-rape anthem of the holiday season!

 

[Boss Radio]

Yeah, but is that all his fault, or was it changes in the music? It's pretty hard to put Nirvana and Dr Dre on the B94 of that time period. What acceptable music he was left with basically changed the station from a teens/20s station into a station for people in their 30s.

Yes, Corporateradio. Once again, if a guy (or gal) is talented enough, they instinctively know what to play on their radio station. That's what makes a truly talented person. History showed it's glaring he does not have that talent. Nodding yes to the suits, he has.

Enough said.

That's irrelevant for a station playing "classic hits." The template is pretty easy to follow.

 

[Talk_Dude]

Yeah, but is that all his fault, or was it changes in the music? It's pretty hard to put Nirvana and Dr Dre on the B94 of that time period. What acceptable music he was left with basically changed the station from a teens/20s station into a station for people in their 30s.

Yes, Corporateradio. Once again, if a guy (or gal) is talented enough, they instinctively know what to play on their radio station. That's what makes a truly talented person. History showed it's glaring he does not have that talent. Nodding yes to the suits, he has.

Enough said.

That's irrelevant for a station playing "classic hits." The template is pretty easy to follow.

Trouble is, the template is wrong. "Hits" means songs that sold a lot of copies when they were new. The thing is, what people in the target demographic might have liked and ran to their local National Record Mart to buy on 45 back between 1955 and 1975 when they were pimple-faced teenagers might not be the same songs they like now that they need Preparation H more than they need Clearasil. They still like the sound of the songs from that era, so they still listen to oldies stations, even if the station doesn't use the word "oldies" any more. But many of the songs that they liked a lot when their hormones first started to kick in aren't the same songs they like now that the hormones are shutting down. The talent needed to successfully program a station playing vintage music today is to see past the sales figures of 40 to 50 years ago, and second-guess the audience on which of those songs they'd buy today.

Anyone can just follow a template. That's what is making radio increasingly irrelevant nowadays, the fact that it's run by a bunch of empty suits who only know how to read spreadsheets and printouts but who have no feel for the music.

Listening to corporate radio is like eating at a steakhouse where all of the cooks are vegans.

 

[Parttimer]

Anyone can just follow a template. That's what is making radio increasingly irrelevant nowadays, the fact that it's run by a bunch of empty suits who only know how to read spreadsheets and printouts but who have no feel for the music.

Listening to corporate radio is like eating at a steakhouse where all of the cooks are vegans.

Yeah, maybe they should play that middle eastern stuff you listen to on your iPod.

 

[Talk_Dude]

Anyone can just follow a template. That's what is making radio increasingly irrelevant nowadays, the fact that it's run by a bunch of empty suits who only know how to read spreadsheets and printouts but who have no feel for the music.

Listening to corporate radio is like eating at a steakhouse where all of the cooks are vegans.

Yeah, maybe they should play that middle eastern stuff you listen to on your iPod.

Who put the bug up your ass?