I have gotten CKLW many times here in the Charleston area, as they used to come in stronger, but they are much weaker than WJR now. WJR still comes in, in fact, I am listening to them right now here.
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CKLW and WJR Radio
- Thread starter Radio Fish Heads
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nightfly61
Guest
gr8oldies said:
If you're in range of CKLW's nighttime signal, it can briefly remind you of the old days.
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Not really since it's a completely different xmtr & I'm sure the processors are all newer units than what they used when it was music radio. Plus the settings are probably set for "talk" now. I wonder what they did with that gorgeous sounding old transmitter.
I understand the nighttime directional pattern is more in compliance with what CKLW is licensed for, than it was "back in the day." Also, one of their transmitter engineers told me on a tour of their facilities in Windsor back in 1974 (during the Big 8 heyday) that they modulated their transmitter at an average of 130% or something like that, and that they also boosted the signal on the sidbands to make it louder. When dialing across the AM band - even from a far distance -- you had to stop and notice AM800. Being Amplitude Modulation, it essentially made their signal something like 70,000 watts instead of 50,000 by having a custom transmitter setup which allowed it to be so loud, without distorting. Since they are a Canadian station, they were able to bend the rules that US radio had to play by back then to have the loudest, strongest AM signal in the East.
In Toledo and all along the south shore of Lake Erie, CKLW used to come in stronger than any of the local stations. But for some years now, since changing hands and formats, the nighttime signal is still stronger than most of the local AMs in northern Ohio, but you can now hear some interference in the background at times in some places (since there actually is silence between words, unlike when it was a music station.) Last time I checked (in September), their night signal also doesn't sound as good as far south as it used to, which again is my understanding of adhering to their licensed directional array, which puts most of the signal toward northern Ontario. From Findlay south is isn't as dominant as it used to be from its 5-tower location straight up and across Lake Erie from Toledo.
In Toledo and all along the south shore of Lake Erie, CKLW used to come in stronger than any of the local stations. But for some years now, since changing hands and formats, the nighttime signal is still stronger than most of the local AMs in northern Ohio, but you can now hear some interference in the background at times in some places (since there actually is silence between words, unlike when it was a music station.) Last time I checked (in September), their night signal also doesn't sound as good as far south as it used to, which again is my understanding of adhering to their licensed directional array, which puts most of the signal toward northern Ontario. From Findlay south is isn't as dominant as it used to be from its 5-tower location straight up and across Lake Erie from Toledo.
I don't believe CKLW was operating with an illegal pattern, but eventually the CRTC made them shoot the majority of the signal into Canada. The pattern dipped southeast a little, where it's almost straight east now. Where I grew up in West central Ohio, after pattern change CKLW was much weaker but there. Trans World Radio pummelled it. When I went to Boys Scout camp in Defiance, Ohio, they were strong day and night. When I make trips north, I noticed I could barely get CKLW's night pattern in Bucyrus, Ohio (no doubt in the old days it would have been blasting in). They were perfect in Cedar Point's parking lot, however. Subsequent trips to the Lorain County area I've heard the present day CKLW strong, but you can hear some background din. I don't know about the modulation, I've read they actually kepy the modulation low but used other techniques to keep the Big 8 sou ding crisp and loud (Canada was not Mexico). They had an old RCA transmitter and I don't know that it would have taken 130% modulation.
OK - maybe it was 125% modulation. But trust me, I visited CKLW just out of high school, and plenty of people there were nice enough to show me and my other radio aficianado friend around the place. The guy who designed the customized transmitter for them explained it to us, and and I said, "so does that effectively mean you're really like a 70,000 watts station with the higher amplitude you put out?," and he twinkled back, "yes."
There was some kind of a deal going on back then that let CKLW escape a lot of attention for awhile, until the Canadian content regulations forced them to play more Canadian artists. Wasn't such a bad thing. Without them, where would Terry Jacks be today??
There was some kind of a deal going on back then that let CKLW escape a lot of attention for awhile, until the Canadian content regulations forced them to play more Canadian artists. Wasn't such a bad thing. Without them, where would Terry Jacks be today??
Around what year out of curiosity? I know CKLW got a new transmitter around 1975. I worked at a station that had the same Optimod.
The CRTC was never happy about the success CKLW had in Detroit. RKO, then Baton had to make CKLW-FM All Windsor All the Time to keep the CRTC at bay.
Could I have lived without "Seasons in the Sun".....yeah.
The CRTC was never happy about the success CKLW had in Detroit. RKO, then Baton had to make CKLW-FM All Windsor All the Time to keep the CRTC at bay.
Could I have lived without "Seasons in the Sun".....yeah.
I showed up one afternoon at the CKLW studios on Oulette Avenue in the spring of 1974, and got around a half hour tour of the station without having made an appointment. Got to meet some of the important people, and everyone was gracious and patient with an inquisitive and opinionated 17 year old who wanted to see the place and ask a few questions about radio. That's how I got the inside info on the customized transmitter and why it not only sounded louder than other stations, but was louder, and without distorting. Their signal was so powerful along western Lake Erie, I used to hear them jump frequency and bleed all over the AM dial when driving under a big set of power lines along the DT&I railroad tracks (the ones that run paralled and between Telegraph Ave and I-75) near the Ohio-Michigan line, some 35 or 40 miles south of their transmitter site.
Now that was radio you simply had to notice.
Now that was radio you simply had to notice.
Before XELO/XEROK made the power increase/facility upgrade CKLW was a regular catch in south central Kansas in the late 60's and early 70's. The only station pre-XEROK that caused "interference" in my location way back when was PJB-Trans World Radio "On the Island of Bonare in The Lesser Antilles"
The Big 8 always sounded good, and definitely had the signature sound of "Positive Peak" modulation.
As a technical aside positive peak modulation levels in the US and Canada were and are still allowed up to 125%.
Negative peaks are of course limited to 100%. The old GE, RCA, and Continental 50,000 watt plate modulated transmitters of the era had tremendously over-built power supply and modulator stages to handle the higher positive peak modulation.
CKLW was one of the great ones...
The Big 8 always sounded good, and definitely had the signature sound of "Positive Peak" modulation.
As a technical aside positive peak modulation levels in the US and Canada were and are still allowed up to 125%.
Negative peaks are of course limited to 100%. The old GE, RCA, and Continental 50,000 watt plate modulated transmitters of the era had tremendously over-built power supply and modulator stages to handle the higher positive peak modulation.
CKLW was one of the great ones...
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nightfly61
Guest
Still wondering how much a full timer like Teddy Bear, Johnny Williams or Super Max made a year. Anybody? Also, how about what the news dept. made & JoJo in the Sky?
sbe1 said:
Bonaire can't make any agreements internationally as it is part of the Netherlands Antillies, an autonomous part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. As such, it foreign policy, including treaties, is set by the Netherlands.
The supposition that CKLW modified its pattern at the behest of Canadian authorities seems much more logical.
The big years of CKLW as a Top 40 were the late 60's and the first part of the 70's, when the station regularly showed in various Ohio market ratings as well as a number of markets in MI. That was the era when PJB was at its "biggest" too.
PJB began its 500 kw operation in the early 60's. And since the PJB "market" was not in the US, and CKLW did not throw a lot of power towards the Venezuelan coast anyway, a treaty would not have been necessary. PJB could not even get the stations on 800 in Maracaibo, Venezuela, Bucaramanga, Colombia or Panama City, Panama, to move... and those were very close by.
Due to the decline in AM listening in Latin America, PJB dropped to 100 kw about 15 years ago...
Jay Walker said:
Bonaire is off the western Venezuelan coast, with the closest big city being Maracaibo. The Lesser Antilles, oddly, include the ABC islands, despite being far from the sting of islands starting with the USVI and ending at Trinidad... Bonaire is really an islando off the Venezuelan coast.
XELO ran 150 kw consistently from well before CKLW went to the Top 40 format; there was no "upgrade" in the 70's... just a rebuild of the facility by Bruce Earle before it became XEROK... transmitter and audio chain all "put back together" for CHR sound.
Another reason CKLW is not as strong-sounding at night across northern Ohio as it used to be is it's not as loud or highly processed as it was when it aired music. I think even when it aired the standards format for a few years before switching programming with CKWW's talk format it sounded louder, but some night interfgerence was starting to be heard during the rare second of silence in the post-rock years. Then again, what AM signal doesn't suffer from interference 40 miles from the transmitter site nowadays?
I am all for it being a Canadian station with Canadian content. But it does seem like a real wasted opportunity to program AM800 just for Essex County, since Canadians complain, justifiably, that their American neighbors know so little about them. That signal is still stronger fulltime than most AM stations from Toledo to Cleveland, and at least another 50 miles inland.
The regulators at the CRTC should reconsider the licensing on AM800 and provide programming that will appeal to listeners on both sides of the border. That is if CBC is smart enough anymore to recognize the value of a 50kw AM signal on the low end of the dial.
I don't doubt that the Radio-Canada French service could pull as many listeners on that signal in the States as CKLW is now drawing with mostly the same syndicated programming as heard on US talk radio.
Vive le difference.
I am all for it being a Canadian station with Canadian content. But it does seem like a real wasted opportunity to program AM800 just for Essex County, since Canadians complain, justifiably, that their American neighbors know so little about them. That signal is still stronger fulltime than most AM stations from Toledo to Cleveland, and at least another 50 miles inland.
The regulators at the CRTC should reconsider the licensing on AM800 and provide programming that will appeal to listeners on both sides of the border. That is if CBC is smart enough anymore to recognize the value of a 50kw AM signal on the low end of the dial.
I don't doubt that the Radio-Canada French service could pull as many listeners on that signal in the States as CKLW is now drawing with mostly the same syndicated programming as heard on US talk radio.
Vive le difference.
Goldilocks94941 said:
The Canadian licencing authority is responsible for serving Canadians, and has established rules and regulations that promote this. They know that the US authorities look out for the interests of Amercans, and that the Detroit area, if anything, has too many radio stations for the current economic situation in that market.
With the exception of places like Luxembourg, Monte Carlo and a few others, countries don't license medium wave stations to serve outside their own borders.
Some elements of the Canadian government absolutely hated CKLW's success in the U.S. This was silly and shortsighted. If you find an aircheck of the Big 8 Reunion which I think was in 2002, there was a brief roundtable with former 20-20 newsmen Grant Hudson and Dick Smythe (thinking maybe one more?) and they told how CKLW brought Canada more publicity than several Public Relations campaigns. They covered Windsor traffic, and if you listened between the blood and guts in the newscasts, you knew that Canada had a prime minister while Ontario had a Premier. There was a CKLW reporter at the swearing in of Pierre Trudeau. Though playing CanCon wasn't CKLW's choice, where would many Canadian acts be without it (the first airing of a Guess Who record was on the Sunday Morning Public Affairs show, Canada Now!). The CRTC heaped a ton of extra requirements on CKLW-FM, such as long blocks of news. Even the AM had rather long newscasts, sometime 8 to 10 minutes, including "CKLW In Depth Report".
With all the noise on the AM band, maybe it does take the full 50kW to adequately serve Essex County, penetrating buildings especially. I don't see what they could do with all the restrictions as a third or fourth tier talker for Detroit. Oldies would be great for nostalgia buffs and radio geeks, but how well would it really do? Right now CKLW must bill just fine, along with the 2 FMs and little CKWW. I do hear a good share of U.S. ads on the FMs when I'm up that way.
With all the noise on the AM band, maybe it does take the full 50kW to adequately serve Essex County, penetrating buildings especially. I don't see what they could do with all the restrictions as a third or fourth tier talker for Detroit. Oldies would be great for nostalgia buffs and radio geeks, but how well would it really do? Right now CKLW must bill just fine, along with the 2 FMs and little CKWW. I do hear a good share of U.S. ads on the FMs when I'm up that way.
yeah, but CKLW AM shows up pretty close to the bottom of the ratings pile now in Detroit, and not a lot better in Toledo (where its dominant signal is still stronger than the local AMs) or even in Cleveland anymore. Not that better ratings are an end in themselves, but they are an indication that there's a lot of wasted wattage putting out programming to a wide area that just isn't drawing an audience outside of morning drive in little ol' metro Windsor.
So why not lower the power on CKLW to 1kw, aim the signal north only, and let someone in the States put up a station on AM790 in Sandusky to cover the south Lake Erie shore with general interest programming and a good 24 hour signal? That's not gonna happen, but it would be a better use of the spectrum (which CRTC does seem to use as part of its license assignments, unlike the "whatever the industry wants" laissez-faire approach of the FCC in the past couple of decades). The CRTC likes to allocate station assignments based on providing programming for intended audiences. As I see it, this is not much different than how they require broadcasters to provide programming for particular ethnic minorities, age demographics, language groups, etc.
So why not lower the power on CKLW to 1kw, aim the signal north only, and let someone in the States put up a station on AM790 in Sandusky to cover the south Lake Erie shore with general interest programming and a good 24 hour signal? That's not gonna happen, but it would be a better use of the spectrum (which CRTC does seem to use as part of its license assignments, unlike the "whatever the industry wants" laissez-faire approach of the FCC in the past couple of decades). The CRTC likes to allocate station assignments based on providing programming for intended audiences. As I see it, this is not much different than how they require broadcasters to provide programming for particular ethnic minorities, age demographics, language groups, etc.
DavidEduardo said:
I was only 13 when Canadian Content regs were enacted in 1970, but I recall that the general mood of the CRTC back then was very activist and very anti-foreign ownership. (Too bad they aren't as concerned about concentration of ownership by [Canadian] media groups in present times. But that's another can of worms). Anyway, Ottawa was aware of CKLW's success in the Detroit market (exposing many, many Americans to lots and lots of Canadian music), but they didn't care. At the end of the day, that station was going to be Canadian-owned, oriented to the Windsor market AND play 30% Canadian music, no matter what the effect on its ratings. (Add the rise of FM to that deadly cocktail and we all know the story ended).
As other posters have pointed out, the current situation (with CKLW and CKWW) remains somewhat puzzling. CKLW's signal is wasted on ultra-local programming that could just as easily be heard in Windsor and Essex County on CKWW's frequency. At the same time, CKWW's programming (oldies) is now effectively the only "traditional" oldies choice in the Windsor/Detroit market (WOMC-FM is now focused on the 1970s and 1980s).
Given these facts, why not flip the formats? The CRTC is obviously "okay" with an oldies format in Windsor. So what harm would there be in "sharing" it once again via CKLW with Michigan and Ohio (not to mention much of Ontario and probably parts of Manitoba)? Windsor would still get its local news and affairs, and The Guess Who, The Poppy Family and Paul Anka would once again move a few more units in American record stores (okay, i-Tunes). Win-win. CKWW management could mercifully retire those faux CKLW jingles (lipstick on a pig and all that) along with their "broadcasting from the studios of the legendary Big-8" liners. Dust off the Johnny Mann jingles and it's win-win-win.
At this point, I can't see any argument NOT to flip the formats.
I think just the fact that CKWW only has 500 watts which won't penetrate any buildings. Maybe a 5000 watt signal, but if the current CKLW programming was put on a 500 watt signal, and advertisers were saying they were having trouble getting the signal, you think they'd pay what they're paying now? Kinda doubt it. I don't know what kind of ratings a Retro Big 8 would have, and more specifically, a station targeting age 55 plus. Not that I wouldn't think it was cool, but I just wonder the logisitics.
Even in the unlikely event that CKLW was downgraded, there wouldn't be a new station in the U.S. The Canadian government "notifies" the station still existing even if it's been silent for years, so we have U.S. stations that still have to protect silent stations.
Even in the unlikely event that CKLW was downgraded, there wouldn't be a new station in the U.S. The Canadian government "notifies" the station still existing even if it's been silent for years, so we have U.S. stations that still have to protect silent stations.
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nightfly61
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...Me-ree--Christ-mas...From Cee-Kay- Ell Double-You!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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