CKLW - Detroit's Worst Top 40 Station

[Al Johnson]

My final thoughts on this topic (it's getting old)...

I guess WixieKid had enough, too.

It is pointless to argue personal preference. Me, I found top 40 radio a lot less interesting and lot less fun (as a listener) when Bill Drake got into the act. Stations like WCFL were exciting to listen to and made me want to be a part of this business. No Drake station ever moved me like that.

High ratings usually means low quality. If it bleeds it leads drives TV news. Bad drives out good in radio, too. High ratings usually mean trash programming.

The things RKO-General was caught doing give a clear indicator of the corporate culture and the kind of people who ran it. It was a sleazy outfit. There is almost certainly a lot more they didn't get caught at (and CKLW was in another jurisdiction and not included in those investigations).

I just looked at 440Int and The Big Eight tribute page. I was surprised at how few of those names I remembered. Those I did remember were mostly because of their associations with other stations.

I draw the conclusion that many people wax nostalgic about top 40 personality jocks from reading this board.

 

[Johnny Morgan]

High ratings usually means low quality...High ratings usually mean trash programming.

This is the problem with such broad, sweeping, conclusory statements like that above is that the inconvenient fact appears again. Keener had huge ratings, as did WCFL at one time.

According to you, then, they were low quality and trash programming. You cannot come along and excuse them because you liked them and meant Drake stations. It's your statement, not mine.

(and CKLW was in another jurisdiction and not included in those investigations).

So, are you alleging that CKLW was engaged in unethical or unsavory conduct? If so, please provide some evidence. Otherwise, you're libeling the management and staff of CKLW, which is reprehensible and inappropriate.

I just looked at 440Int and The Big Eight tribute page. I was surprised at how few of those names I remembered. Those I did remember were mostly because of their associations with other stations.

Did you listen to CKLW back then? If not, it's not surprising that you would not know any of those names. We're not likely to remember those we've never heard of in the first place.

If you did listen to CKLW, why did you listen, if you were so opposed to the format, its execution, the jocks, and the like?

 

[charlievandyke]

Commenting as one who was there, I think CKLW was an outstanding radio station! It was the first Drake (RKO) station of several I was honored to enjoy as staff. Top notch engineering (and board ops), great local programmers, absolute corporate support, jocks who gave their all...that was across the board at Drake (RKO) stations. Scotty would agree, the format gave legs to anything you wanted to do. We were told, change anything you want as long as what you did was better than the format basic. CKLW was my first Drake station so I was probably the weakest performer. Once you took the Drake approach into yourself, you could make a station dance. Drake (and Watson) made us feel like elite Marines. Having worked for McLendon's KLIF and ABC's WLS, I have never lost my love for the Drake insight into how to make radio great, fun and entertaining.

The Drake approach also brought us Morgan and Steele...among others. Personalities? You betcha! As good as they get. Drake gave life and energy to a format that had, on many stations, been overtalked and over jock egoed. And don't even start about CKLW news. It was awesome...Dick Smyth NEVER failed to listen to a newscast on CKLW and give immediate feedback. He was to the news crew what our PD was to us. CKLW was remarkable and I am honored to have spend some time kicking it out over 23 states and 3 provinces on The Big 8!

 

[searadiofreak]

We are not worthy! Thank you Charlie! If that doesn't put an end to the discussion, nothing will. CKLW was one of the best, not worst, in Detroit and North America.

 

[davideduardo]

The things RKO-General was caught doing give a clear indicator of the corporate culture and the kind of people who ran it. It was a sleazy outfit. There is almost certainly a lot more they didn't get caught at (and CKLW was in another jurisdiction and not included in those investigations).

RKO General was not the entity involveed in improprieties. It was General Tire's core rubber division which was convicted of bribing officials in Algeria, Mexico and Venezuela. Since RKO General was owned by General Tire & Rubber, the finding that the parent was unfit to hold a licence fell on the broadcast division, which itself had commited no impropriety. In fact, the broadcast division was not part of the bribery affair and none of its exectuves or staff were ever involved.

RKO Radio was anything but sleazy; it was a class operation. And the stations were fine operations.

 

[davideduardo]

We are not worthy! Thank you Charlie! If that doesn't put an end to the discussion, nothing will. CKLW was one of the best, not worst, in Detroit and North America.

Absolutely! What a great statement from one of the finest talents.

 

[Radiofreewill]

I guess WixieKid had enough, too.

Probably just some sort of troll trying to stir up a little controversy just so he could sit back and watch us fight amongst ourselves for his amusement.

But hey, it brought Charlie Van Dyke into the fold. And if I don't hit the post button soon I'm gonna go all fanboy and start shouting things like "Hey! Charlie! Over here!" and waving my arms in some sort of attempt to either get his attention or fly. ;D

 

[cklw800]

Sorry I'm late...real sorry...so I won't stretch this any further. You all did a great job of explaining to the originator of this thread. Of all people I should have been on this first but I missed this totally. All I have to say is,

"Oh no he didn't. Oh...no...he...didn't!"

Thanks.

CK fan 'til the day I die!

 

[snoman]

AM 800 brought us two of the finest stations ever, and at one point you could pick them up from sea to shining sea, or at least border to border and over the border... CKLW and XEROK (X-Rock 80). Two Top 40 legends, with incredible personalities. Go to 440 Satisfaction's website and take a look at some of the names associated with both these fine stations. I only hate that I was too young to really appreciate them at the time. But, definitely two of the best ever.

And, I am HUMBLED by the presence of Charlie Van Dyke on the boards. What an incredible talent. And, one of the few people (Dan Ingram being the other one that comes to mind), that can go in and ease the pain of losing Robert W. Morgan, on K-Earth 101. Hope all is going well with you in Arizona, Charlie. You are definitely missed on the daily airwaves.

Long live CKLW and XEROK! "The BIG 8" and "The Sun City Streaker"

 

[retireddj]

I grew up in the metro DTW area.... got my start in the west burbs. CKLW was what is was; a great station for the day, that bought market domination for a period of time then went down; but oh the money somebody made in the process. I remember listening to both CK and Lee Alan (Joel Sebastian too on wixie) trying to be the pretend DJ as I practiced on my basement radio station.... oh those were the days.

Wixie's signal was not all that great in the far west of Wayne and Washtenaw, WJBK was even worse and Keener about like wixie. Keener's big favor was that short time being the overall no #1 rated R&R station anywhere in the USA... but by that time the Drake- Chenault wars were about over and Keener was moving towards a owner sale.... (hey... anyone remember Stereo Island on Keener fm after that- what a format).

Gents and ladies, radio wouldnt be where it is today, good or bad, without those days...just like the phone company and new tech phone service with Judge Green and the AT&T breakup.

oh forgot..... anyone remember Johnny Landecker on Chicago's Voice of Labor. In case you didnt know it he was a detroit connected product. Started in Ann Arbor at U-M student radio, etc... and the old WOIA station out in Ann Arbor's south country.

Great thread guys..... those were really the days. The competition in Detroit made is possible for these stations to be breaking new music even before LA, Miami or NYC did.... recall that Lee Alan's Make or Break It segment broke the Beach Boys nationally even while they were still building in LA and So Cal. Can anyone verify that story?????

 

[searadiofreak]

"oh forgot..... anyone remember Johnny Landecker on Chicago's Voice of Labor. In case you didnt know it he was a detroit connected product. Started in Ann Arbor at U-M student radio, etc... and the old WOIA station out in Ann Arbor's south country."

All good points, retireddj, but John Landecker worked at WLS, not the Voice of Labor WCFL.

 

[mikemarshall]

CKLW was my first Drake station so I was probably the weakest performer.

Other than the above quote, I would echo everthing Charlie said in his post. Charlie was one of the great Big 8 jocks. Period. End of discussion.

CK was a Canadian station (in theory) more identified with the US because it was the only station located in a US market (practically speaking). The CRTC stepped in because it was NOT a Canadian station (in fact); neither was channel 9. Those of you who think CK can do no wrong should remember that the FCC yanked all the rest of RKO-General's US radio and TV licenses after widespread illegal practices came to light. If the CRTC hadn't stepped in, the RCMP and OPP might well have.

RKO was anything but sleazy in the years I worked for them. In 1968, the Canadian government decided that no foreign company would be allowed to own more than 20 per cent of any broadcasting property and RKO decided it would sell Channel 9 and CKLW AM & FM to Baton Broadcasting. It was that simple.

Bill Drake always takes the rap for "liner-driven" radio devoid of personality but the blame really rests squarely on the shoulders of the copycats, the consultants and PDs who didn't quite grasp the concept and completely shut down their jocks. The fact that Drake is still around and many of the others are long gone speaks volumes.

I can't remember who but Paul Drew, Ted Atkins or Jim O'Brien once told me that the format clock was your friend. It was the engine, the jock was the engineer who made all the bits and pieces work and the odd time you were feeling a bit under the weather, the train would drive itself. We were encouraged to be creative and communicate. The results speak for themselves.

mike marshall (Frank Brodie)

 

[Cary Pall]

Re: CKLW - Detroit's BEST Top 40 Station

Charlie Van Dyke: THANKS for your insight and your great work over the years. I am reminded of something I heard Robert W. Morgan say about the Drake format some years ago. He explained that Drake laid out a format that was a frame, much like the frame of a portrait. What the DJ painted within that frame was up to him. And I heard some of the greatest jocks ever work within that frame to produce truly great radio.

The "personality" DJs that worked under less restrictive formats of the time were less effective in ratings not just because they weren't playing "more music", but because they had no restraint, nothing to make them think "well now, what's the most effective way to get the point across?". While some were indeed great talents, others just talked to hear themselves talk. And listeners, when faced with a choice, will bond with those who don't wear their egos on their sleeves, and who communicate most effectively.

That CKLW survived and thrived for as long as it did despite the oppressiveness of the Canadian government, despite credible competition from WXYZ, WKNR, WDRQ and others, says it all. Thank you to everyone that helped make CKLW the powerhouse it was.

And to those of you who didn't like it, ain't it great that, even in the 60s, you had a dial full of other choices? No such luck in most of the rest of the world back then.

 

[charlievandyke]

Seeing the post from Mike/Frank above brought back a flood of memories. Frank (as I knew him) was such a master of the format. So smooth...getting content in to the smallest intros! He was the one who spent two weeks teaching me how to work my way through the format and making it my friend on the overnight shift. Frank was a relaxed teacher and I will never forget during the time that I was under his coaching doing the overnight show on CK that I got a call one night from him. He said casually, "Hi, Charlie. It's Frank. It's 12:08 and your late at the Big 8." I had slept through the start of the shift! After I threw on something to wear and sped to the studio...that was the night it all fell into place!

Later, Frank was moved to mid-days and we spent some real quality time in the bar at the Holiday Inn as often as we could covering every item of interest two young jocks could share.

It was Frank who invited me to his home and first turned this young "Yank" dj on to the music of Gordon Lightfoot. It was through Frank and some of the CK team that I began to learn of the richness of Canadian radio history. You see, Canadians are too humble to brag...but Canadian radio was as excellent as that in the US. They just kept it to themselves.

Thanks, Frank/Mike...you are one of the real good guys.

Charlie

 

[mikemarshall]

Ah, yes, the infamous "Plywood Palace." Charlie, thank you for the kind words. Those were, indeed, good times, although it must be said that I learned more listening to your shows than you ever got from any coaching from me. (We still get to hear Charlie daily on WIVB TV4 from Buffalo.)
BTW, I'm sending a couple of pics of our new (first) grandson.

The "personality" DJs that worked under less restrictive formats of the time were less effective in ratings not just because they weren't playing "more music", but because they had no restraint, nothing to make them think "well now, what's the most effective way to get the point across?". While some were indeed great talents, others just talked to hear themselves talk. And listeners, when faced with a choice, will bond with those who don't wear their egos on their sleeves, and who communicate most effectively.

One of the great things about radio back then was the number of "live" commercials, which offered more ways to communicate with the listener and inject some personality in a tight format.
I always felt a little blessed at CKLW, in that I had already worked for a programmer, Tom Darling at CHML, who stressed self-editing and the need to know what you wanted to say and how best to say it. They were lessons that you carried with you for the rest of your career.
Cary, please say hello to Bill Harman, should your paths happen to cross.

 

[Cary Pall]

Re: CKLW - Detroit's Best Top 40 Station

Mike: With you all the way re live spots. I really had a lot of fun with them in Rochester at BBF, and at 99X, where most spots were live if they didn't come in already produced, so that the station could avoid paying the union talent fee!

Here in Cincy, we get to enjoy CVD's big voice on Oldies 1160 WDJO. And Bill Harman is still doing well in Columbus...we just spoke last week. I will pass along your good wishes!

 

[trusty]

I'm really glad I stumbled across this thread; it's has brought back some great memories.

One of the first things I did when I moved with my parents to Atlanta in 1957 was to find a good radio station that had music for me. I kept tuning until I found something that blew me away: a little 250-watt station that was the tightest, best-produced sound I had ever heard: WAKE/1340. They had personalities that stayed within the format, and they had a format that one of the jocks took with him wherever he went.

Bill Drake was a shy kid. He didn't say much on his afternoon shift on WAKE, but he didn't have to - the emphasis was on the music. That, with the reverb, tight commercials, and very little news (We were kids; we didn't care about NEWS.), gave the station the most energized format in Atlanta.

He was also a very busy DJ - as all WAKE jocks were. There were no cart machine in the control room - EVERYTHING was on disc. Also, Atlanta was not a union town - the jocks ran their own boards. Lots of room for error, but if there were any mistakes, they were well covered up.

WAKE's signal faded at night - about the same time a guy came on WGST with his own rock 'n roll program - the only program for teenagers on a station which mostly aired programs from ABC. He was OK, but had a pretty bland delivery on a program with no format - not much "personality" - but everybody knew his name because he had no competition outside of the downtown area.

If Paul Drew had not been such an icon (because of no competition), he would have never made it at WAKE. But, for some weird reason, he and WGST parted company, WAKE picked him up, and he adjusted to the format very well.

However, he was still a nighttime DJ - on a station with no signal at night, so when WQXI/790 made the switch to full-time Top 40, Paul Drew made the switch to WQXI, a station that is said to be the inspiration for "WKRP in Cincinnati" (and that is true!).

Atlanta was a very tight-knit market in a very tight-knit industry. Bill Drake and Paul Drew were impressed with each other's business skills and love for energized radio. They loved the kids and the music, and the relationship that started at a small station in Atlanta worked in each other's favor later on.

Time passed - people moved on - the industry changed a bit. But, one day I got a call from a friend raving about this Canadian station he had DX'ed. That night in Georgia, I tuned to 800 and heard a great sound from Windsor; it was WAKE all over again.

 

[Al Johnson]

Bill Drake always takes the rap for "liner-driven" radio devoid of personality but the blame really rests squarely on the shoulders of the copycats, the consultants and PDs who didn't quite grasp the concept and completely shut down their jocks. The fact that Drake is still around and many of the others are long gone speaks volumes.

I am reminded of something I heard Robert W. Morgan say about the Drake format some years ago. He explained that Drake laid out a format that was a frame, much like the frame of a portrait. What the DJ painted within that frame was up to him. And I heard some of the greatest jocks ever work within that frame to produce truly great radio.

The "personality" DJs that worked under less restrictive formats of the time were less effective in ratings not just because they weren't playing "more music", but because they had no restraint, nothing to make them think "well now, what's the most effective way to get the point across?". While some were indeed great talents, others just talked to hear themselves talk. And listeners, when faced with a choice, will bond with those who don't wear their egos on their sleeves, and who communicate most effectively.

Drake introduced, maybe "perfected", quality control in music radio. The result of quality control is consistency, and a shift in emphasis (and listener loyalty) from the personality to the station "brand." He made the less gifted sound good within the format. But he also restricted the great talents. Morgan and a few others were given some latitude but the really great Top 40 jocks (the one's we remember and still talk about) could never have survived under Drake. Not Mickey Schorr. Not Joey Reynolds. Not Lee Allen, Joel Sebastian and Dave Prince. Not Dick Purtain.

And Drake should take the rap. Most of the things that music-formatted radio has become, the things that people come here to complain about, started with him. Maybe others didn't pull it off, as well. He still is responsible for starting the the "dumbing down," and predictability of radio. Of course, he's still around. He gives owners what they want.

 

[mikemarshall]

Al, earlier in the thread, you said:

>> for my money CK's only advantage was its blow torch signal <<

>> If Keener had been on a comparable signal (say 760AM at 50kw) I think CK wouldn't have stood a chance. <<

Before Paul Drew (and Drake-Chenault shortly thereafter) arrived on the scene, Keener and quite a few other Detroit stations were beating CKLW by some large margins. I'd argue it was what they *did* on that 50-thousand-watt signal that made the difference.

I will agree that Drake took the personality, spontaneity, and local identity out of AM Top 40 radio.

Drake did nothing of the sort. Personality was encouraged. Within the format, there was room for spontaneity and CKLW, for one, was local as hell. It was also unique, in the sense that the station, for want of a better phrase, had to serve two masters. CK had to be local in Windsor *and* Detroit. And it was.

Personality top 40 depended on personalities and results were not always consistent. But when a personality clicked, the result was magic and Drake killed the magic.

Quick question: Why would you only want to be successful some of the time? If you're going to do something and beat everybody else in the market, why not do it consistently, 24 hours a day? If you can do a bit more effectively on a 14-second record talkup, why take a minute or longer to do the same thing in a backsell?

Al, you sound pretty set in your opinions. You're welcome to them (and there's no snark intended when I say that). As you said earlier, "different strokes for different folks." I must say, though, that the logic in some of what you say escapes me. It sorta makes the case for why Drake did some of the things he did.
Drake wasn't a "magic killer." He didn't "dumb down" Top 40 radio. If anything, he (and the people who worked with him) made good jocks smarter. They made us think about what we were doing...how best to do what we wanted to do without shutting down the radio station.
Drake got rid of the negatives and took out the clutter. When the Johnny Mann Singers sang, "More Music," it wasn't an idle boast.

 

[VODood]

I grew up in the metro DTW area.... got my start in the west burbs. CKLW was what is was; a great station for the day, that bought market domination for a period of time then went down; but oh the money somebody made in the process. I remember listening to both CK and Lee Alan (Joel Sebastian too on wixie) trying to be the pretend DJ as I practiced on my basement radio station.... oh those were the days.

Wixie's signal was not all that great in the far west of Wayne and Washtenaw, WJBK was even worse and Keener about like wixie. Keener's big favor was that short time being the overall no #1 rated R&R station anywhere in the USA... but by that time the Drake- Chenault wars were about over and Keener was moving towards a owner sale.... (hey... anyone remember Stereo Island on Keener fm after that- what a format).

Gents and ladies, radio wouldnt be where it is today, good or bad, without those days...just like the phone company and new tech phone service with Judge Green and the AT&T breakup.

oh forgot..... anyone remember Johnny Landecker on Chicago's Voice of Labor. In case you didnt know it he was a detroit connected product. Started in Ann Arbor at U-M student radio, etc... and the old WOIA station out in Ann Arbor's south country.

Great thread guys..... those were really the days. The competition in Detroit made is possible for these stations to be breaking new music even before LA, Miami or NYC did.... recall that Lee Alan's Make or Break It segment broke the Beach Boys nationally even while they were still building in LA and So Cal. Can anyone verify that story?????

"wixie"... you mean WIXY 1260 "Super Radio" in Cleveland. Now that was a GREAT Top 40 station! As was CKLW.