CKLW - Detroit's Worst Top 40 Station

[wgliradio]

I'll take Morgan, Steele, Dr. Don Rose, and a number of others over Ingram any day.

Not surprised considering your taste in radio.

Rose was OK at WFIL (King George, Jim Nettleton and Long John were much better, although I think Michaels did much better after coming to NY at WABC) and slightly better in SF, but never anything great IMHO.

Steele was another. I never got the LA sound. Dees, Morgan, Owens, Steele and the like (Tuna is probably the exception).

Dearborn from CFL, Richards from CKLW, Nettleton at DRC & FIL, Lewis, Lundy & Leonard (and Ingram, although not my favorite there) at ABC, Bwana Johnny, & Al Brady in Hackensack (alot of talent passed thru "the J" in the early 70's), Dr Jerry Carroll on WPIX, Bob Vernon, Brady & Imus at NBC, so many more...

 

[wgliradio]

Dan Ingram said that the average amount of daily WABC listening time was 5 minutes per day. He also said that WABC had a 6,000,000 cume audience at their height. WCBS-FM's maximum cume was 1,900,000 at their height.

Not per day. People would listen multiple times per day, but would only listen for maybe 5 -10 (stretching it there) minutes each time, enough to hear a record or two (and 4 spots).

WABC was hit and run, which is why the most popular records were always playing. This was true of many successful Top 40's.

 

[RADIO TRUTH]

I disagree with WGLIRADIO about one thing and that thing is Jerry Carroll. In 1972, when Ken Draper was consulting WPIX-FM, he thought Jerry Carroll was so bad that he switched him with Dennis Quinn and put Jerry on the all night show and put Dennis in middays. The only reason that Jerry Carroll ever did evenings at PIX was
because the Daily News decided to run the station for as little money as possible and fire everyone who was making any money. The original plan was to fire Jerry Carroll, Dennis Quinn and Les Marshak and bring in 3 heavy weight jocks to go with Barney Pip, Al Gee and Bob Dayton. The Daily News ended up firing Barney Pip, Bob Dayton and Al Gee to save money. They kept the 3 worst jocks. They also fired Ken Draper as a consultant and
kept Neil McIntyre, who was only hired to be Draper's puppet, as the program director. Over the next 8 years, PIX went through many formats, many bad jocks and generally were near the bottom of the ratings in New York because of the Daily News cheapness.

 

[wgliradio]

I disagree with WGLIRADIO about one thing and that thing is Jerry Carroll. In 1972, when Ken Draper was consulting WPIX-FM, he thought Jerry Carroll was so bad that he switched him with Dennis Quinn and put Jerry on the all night show and put Dennis in middays. The only reason that Jerry Carroll ever did evenings at PIX was
because the Daily News decided to run the station for as little money as possible and fire everyone who was making any money. The original plan was to fire Jerry Carroll, Dennis Quinn and Les Marshak and bring in 3 heavy weight jocks to go with Barney Pip, Al Gee and Bob Dayton. The Daily News ended up firing Barney Pip, Bob Dayton and Al Gee to save money. They kept the 3 worst jocks. They also fired Ken Draper as a consultant and
kept Neil McIntyre, who was only hired to be Draper's puppet, as the program director. Over the next 8 years, PIX went through many formats, many bad jocks and generally were near the bottom of the ratings in New York because of the Daily News cheapness.

Quinn has outlasted all the formats and is a great jock and does mornings at QCD. I think he has a lifetime contract with PIX/QCD meaning they could not eliminate him for salary reasons. He's been there for 35+ years now.

Bill Brown was at CBS-FM for 35 years IIRC when that ended. I'm trying to think of other NYC "lifers" at one station.....

I liked Carroll, PIX in 1972 was a bad station, so I don't know what Draper was doing if he were there. The only thing it had going for it IMHO was the talent there.

I was not a big Dayton fan. Years later he ended up on Long Island before he passed (at WGLI among other places). Barney Pip is another good jock and Marshak was more of a voice than an on-air talent IMHO.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: New York Population... facts and fiction.

One other thing, in the mid 60s, the entire New York market, including North Jersey, Long Island, Southern Connecticut and lower New York State was about 15,000,000.

The current population of Arbitron's New York City MSA is 15.2 million. It was not the same in the mid-60's as the survey area was smaller and the population of the metro was smaller.

The Arbitron metro for the first reports in that market in the late 60's showed somewhere in the high 7-million range 12+. I checked more extensively, and found that I was high in my original figure.

The Census Bureau definition of metros is often different from that of Arbitron, but the 1970 metro (MSA's did not yet exist) for NY per the Census is 7.894 million, so the 12+ is even less than that. http://www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0027/tab20.txt Obviously, Arbitron's market definition was a bit bigger than the Census market definition.

For all practical purposes, the metro did not grow between 1960 and 1970, as the difference is less than 200 thousand persons.

Nobody cumed 100% of the 12+ population.

 

[davideduardo]

Not per day. People would listen multiple times per day, but would only listen for maybe 5 -10 (stretching it there) minutes each time, enough to hear a record or two (and 4 spots).

WABC was hit and run, which is why the most popular records were always playing. This was true of many successful Top 40's.

All Top 40's or CHRs have shorter TSL than most other formats except all-news. However, none has or ever had a TSL indicating a few minutes per incident or day. WABC had typical for the era TSL of around 8 or 9 hours in the 60's (using Arbitron... you can not calculate weekly TSL in Pulse data of the era as they did a 24 hour recall survey, not a weekly diary). Remember, there were vastly fewer stations to pick from in that period, as FM had really not begun to perform in the 60's. And the average person listened to about 21 hours of radio a week... if they were a WABC P1, they listend several hours a day.

 

[OldiesCat]

One other thing, in the mid 60s, the entire New York market, including North Jersey, Long Island, Southern Connecticut and lower New York State was about 15,000,000.

Only thing that mattered (or matters) is the defined Arbitron Metro area.

 

[OldiesCat]

Jocks

I'll take Morgan, Steele, Dr. Don Rose, and a number of others over Ingram any day.

Not surprised considering your taste in radio.

Rose was OK at WFIL (King George, Jim Nettleton and Long John were much better, although I think Michaels did much better after coming to NY at WABC) and slightly better in SF, but never anything great IMHO.

Steele was another. I never got the LA sound. Dees, Morgan, Owens, Steele and the like (Tuna is probably the exception).

Dearborn from CFL, Richards from CKLW, Nettleton at DRC & FIL, Lewis, Lundy & Leonard (and Ingram, although not my favorite there) at ABC, Bwana Johnny, & Al Brady in Hackensack (alot of talent passed thru "the J" in the early 70's), Dr Jerry Carroll on WPIX, Bob Vernon, Brady & Imus at NBC, so many more...

Now we're getting into biaed personal preference for jocks. The fact that I believe the CKLW jocks were among the best ever doesn't diminish the fact that those back east preferred the WABC legends and on the West Coast it was the KHJ contingent.

 

[Tom Zarecki]

Nice try, but it's tough to dismiss legions of fans (and people who ultimately became today's radio people, too) due to CK and the many other kingpin top 40's of the past. apparently another usual disgruntled radio guy who hates "what radio has become". CKLW worked, and they don't care if you didn't like them. millions of people did. if you don't like chocolate ice cream does that make it bad?

Tom Zarecki
Jetcast

OK, they had a good signal. Maybe they were Toledo's best top 40 station.
But compared to WJBK, WKNR and WXYZ, they sucked.
No personality. A vanilla playlist. Just shouting and reverb.
Drake destroyed top 40 radio, robbing it of spontaneity, excitement, creativity, local flavor and personality.
20/20 News was clever but it wasn't news.
WXYZ and WKNR hustled for real news.
The memorable personalities were NOT on CK: Mickey Schorr, Ed MacKenzie, Tom Clay, Dick Purtan, Gary Stevens, Dave Prince, Joel Sebastian, Joey Reynolds (among others).
CK led the way to what radio has become.
It wasn't the CRTC that destroyed CK. It was RKO-General and Bill Drake.

 

[OldiesCat]

CKLW

CKLW worked, and they don't care if you didn't like them. millions of people did. if you don't like chocolate ice cream does that make it bad?

Amen. And, many disgruntled types are often bitter 'cause they never had what it took to really "make it" to THE BIG 8! ;D

 

[Griff]

Mike, I think some of these guys are just trying to yank your chain. Your (and Jim Edward's, and Pat Holiday's, and Ted Richard's, and CVD's, and Scotty's and Bill Gable's and Walt Baby Love's, and Ed Mitchell's, and..........) work has stood the test of time, and is still a joy to listen to to this day. It's nice that you can inject some "I was there" experience into this discussion, and that you can clarify exactly what was going on then, but you really don't need to answer to this, your (and the others) work, and the success that it enjoyed, and the appreciation of the literally millions who enjoyed it is a monument to the sucess of the format, and your hard work.

Griff (Bruce)


"Fifty thousand massive musical watts, ..... sounding like a million ....."

I owned a radio station and knowing that I could not get the talent that I needed, I used the Drake Format and we sounded great because it was easy to teach and didn't require alot of talent to execute it. Another advantage of the Drake Format is that you can pay the jocks next to nothing and they are interchangeable parts. I do like the Drake Format for those reasons.

Well, that pretty well blows your credibility when you say, "The Drake format limited what the djs could say because they could only talk over the intros up to the vocal. This did two things. It made really bad djs sound mediocre but, it made really good djs sound mediocre too." You just *thought* you knew enough about it "to teach." Just a guess but I'll bet you also didn't pay a dime to Drake/Chenault for their consulting services. If you had, you'd have a much better understanding of what was really involved.

Inventor989 made a good point when Scott Regen was used as an example. Another quickly comes to mind: Tom Shannon on CKLW before Drew and Drake, then after they arrived, when his evening ratings went through the roof. That was no fluke and it obviously had nothing to do with the signal.

mike marshall (Frank Brodie)

 

[mikemarshall]

Thanks for your thoughts, Griff. Not to worry. I enjoyed the discussion.

 

[Oldbones]

In Boston, signal was a huge issue, WMEX was directional into the water with a very narrow pattern. WRKO had a much better signal. Again, switch the stations and the outcome would be different.

That doesn't explain the beating WBZ (with a vastly superior signal) took when WRKO signed on, indeed they were out of the format within a year.

 

[OldiesCat]

In Boston, signal was a huge issue, WMEX was directional into the water with a very narrow pattern. WRKO had a much better signal. Again, switch the stations and the outcome would be different.

That doesn't explain the beating WBZ (with a vastly superior signal) took when WRKO signed on, indeed they were out of the format within a year.

I think the "vastly superior signal" premise comes from DX-er types and their ability to cover 38 states. For the local market, 50kw is 50kw and product always wins out.

 

[Oldbones]

I think the "vastly superior signal" premise comes from DX-er types and their ability to cover 38 states. For the local market, 50kw is 50kw and product always wins out.

Have you ever been in Boston? WBZ's transmitter is in Boston harbor and is directional west, WRKO's is about 10 mi. west of the city and directional east (especially at night). In the actual city & inner suburbs their signals are more or less comparable, but there's plenty of suburban Boston (especially within the 495 beltway to the west) where WRKO doesn't come in very well. We're not talking dx'ers in Ohio here, we're talking semi-local listeners that a Boston station would care about. As far as product winning out, that was my point...someone compared WRKO to WMEX (which had a truly lousy signal) and implied that a better signal was the only reason for WRKO's success.

 

[davideduardo]

In Boston, signal was a huge issue, WMEX was directional into the water with a very narrow pattern. WRKO had a much better signal. Again, switch the stations and the outcome would be different.

That doesn't explain the beating WBZ (with a vastly superior signal) took when WRKO signed on, indeed they were out of the format within a year.

At the time, in the 60's, the metro was much smaller and the signal of 680 was not at a disadvantage.

 

[cARLOS Blake]

Wixiekid, You have no CLUE! CKLW was the absolute best in the biz back then. Top notch programming, jocks, hard hitting hardcore news, killer jingles & one of the best sounding signals in the Northern hemisphere. Whoopee, Alan Freed was from Cleveland. They were so professional, the engineer had 2 things of the same thing playing at once at all times in case what was in program went bad. Did any Cleveland stations even have a traffic chopper in '75?

 

[davideduardo]

Did any Cleveland stations even have a traffic chopper in '75?

No, because Cleveland did not have bad traffic bottlenecks like Detroit did.

The reason why no stations radio stations in Los Angeles have tornado warning systems is that we don't have tornados. Why would a Cleveland station have a helicopter?

 

[cARLOS Blake]

Did any Cleveland stations even have a traffic chopper in '75?

No, because Cleveland did not have bad traffic bottlenecks like Detroit did.

The reason why no stations radio stations in Los Angeles have tornado warning systems is that we don't have tornados. Why would a Cleveland station have a helicopter?

Then why just a few years later WGCL FM have "Dave Baron, the WGCL SKYYY Pilot" in the early 80's? Same with Pat Brady & WMMS with the Buzzard Skyway Patrol? Do you think Cleveland had/has no major traffic problems? BTW, for the first poster, if you think CKLW's news was "fake", go check out www.thebig8.net & listen to some of those outstanding airchecks, especially from Byron McGregor & Grant Hudson. The teletype fx just spiced it up.

 

[davideduardo]

Then why just a few years later WGCL FM have "Dave Baron, the WGCL SKYYY Pilot" in the early 80's? Same with Pat Brady & WMMS with the Buzzard Skyway Patrol? Do you think Cleveland had/has no major traffic problems? BTW, for the first poster, if you think CKLW's news was "fake", go check out www.thebig8.net & listen to some of those outstanding airchecks, especially from Byron McGregor & Grant Hudson. The teletype fx just spiced it up.

Many stations have done traffic reports as a sales proposition. I had a fixed-wing for several years in Puerto Rico, although the San Juan market had perhaps America's worst traffic buy literally no alternate routes. I did it because I could sell it.