Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[Biondi4Mayor]

Radio is a lot like Borders the bookstore, too afraid to face the facts of a competitive and changing media world. There's been little evolving lately, and ultimately it is taking itself down. The only people who deny this fact are the most high-ups, or the most disillusioned. Our arguement is that radio needs to evolve more creatively, and your argument is that it should practically remain the same as nothing is wrong.

Radio as a whole is its own conversation, but this format, which darn near died in the middle of the previous decade, is now a strong performer and attracting younger listeners than before. It's doing that through rigorously applied music testing, meticulously designed rotations and by adding music from more recent years...all things that get a lot of heat on this board. But the fact is, they are the reason there's a format to discuss in 2013.

Ok, but now those listeners (me being one you just described) are tired of it.

As John Cleese said in Monty Python's cheese shop sketch: "Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please."

Is there anything (evidence, not personal feelings or hearsay) to indicate that Classic Hits listeners as a whole are tired of it? The ratings and revenues suggest otherwise.

No, there's no hard research. But I honestly have yet to read positive reviews regarding classic hits programming. I hear from insiders "it works" but never from people "it's great and entertaining". I can think of entire websites and blogs (some of which have daily readers in the hunderds and thousands) where the topic is "forgotten hits" or even "things radio should be doing". I can think of media employees past and present who have written articles stating my same arguments. I see three stations Facebook pages with comments from fans asking for songs off the playlist or questioning repetition. I see from the people I talk to, or even am engaged in small talk with that they feel the same (and the argument extends beyond classic hits here). I read media journalists, media scholars articles, and things put out by DJ's or other PD's who are sometimes just as dumbfounded as I am regarding programming (WLS was one of those cases). Circumstantial? Maybe. But as the general public, I'm not seeing it. Why such heated arguments around the topic (and not just here) if it's all fine and great?

Ratings, their accuracy isn't direct feedback neccessarily. Captive listeners like me just endure the trash to hear a few hits we like because there's no place to go (well actually there's tons of classic hits stations, but they all play the same stuff). So, ratings don't account for the listeners who are listening as a result of the lesser of two evils. My thoughts on the PPM aside...

Hoverround...a little more extreme than my examples.

Regarding Chicago, sorry I've seen you make some references or show up on the board over there, I thought you might pay attention to some of the stuff going on. Never been? Aside from our radio ;D , we're a pretty great place!

 

[michael hagerty]

Up the coast from Boston, in Gloucester, Mass., is 104.9 WBOQ, where most of WODS's old playlist lives on -- along with a bunch of playlist padders that attest, no doubt, to its lack of testing. Although its signal reaches the Boston area, reception in Boston proper is impossible thanks to a Class D squatter on the frequency, Northeastern University's WRBB. Anyway, here's the last hour:

Angel of the Morning -- Juice Newton (!)
Soul Deep -- Box Tops
Piano Man -- Billy Joel
No Reply -- Beatles
If This Is It -- Huey Lewis
Ain't Too Proud to Beg -- Temptations
Nights Are Forever Without You -- England Dan/JF Coley
Blinded by the Light -- Manfred Mann's Earth Band
Suavecito -- Malo
The Best of Times -- Styx
Sweet Soul Music -- Arthur Conley
Sir Duke -- Stevie Wonder
I'm a Man -- Spencer Davis Group
Here Comes the Rain Again -- Eurhythmics

They probably don't do tests due to expense, but there's nothing really reckless on that list, either. If I'm playing late 60s, though, I'm going with Merrilee Rush instead of Juice Newton.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Speaking of "reckless" WCBS played "Shame" by Evelyn Champagne King this afternoon. Got my attention.
What do you know, a rare one, an R&B/Disco one, and it's by a female. These songs can work!

 

[oldies76]

I don't see any 90's on K-Earth

Maybe 2 songs at best, "Smooth" by Santana from 1999 and "Black or White" by Michael Jackson from 1991...They might slip in Selena's "I Could Fall In Love" from 1995.

But frankly you're right, KRTH does not play 90's....Three measly songs is not a good representation of a decade worth of hits. Check back in five years.

 

[oldies76]

What it should tell you is that the list of viable candidates is extremely small.

That is very unfortunate. Thankfully there are other stations that "take the risk" as they say....
Not much of a risk anyways, considering some of these stations have been around for several years now, like Super Hits 106.

 

[oldies76]

Angel of the Morning -- Juice Newton (!)
Soul Deep -- Box Tops
Piano Man -- Billy Joel
No Reply -- Beatles
If This Is It -- Huey Lewis
Ain't Too Proud to Beg -- Temptations
Nights Are Forever Without You -- England Dan/JF Coley
Blinded by the Light -- Manfred Mann's Earth Band
Suavecito -- Malo
The Best of Times -- Styx
Sweet Soul Music -- Arthur Conley
Sir Duke -- Stevie Wonder
I'm a Man -- Spencer Davis Group
Here Comes the Rain Again -- Eurhythmics

Now, that's more like it....A couple of rarely played gems from 1981, especially Juice Newton. And a few of the "everyday" songs mixed in. Radio can do it, just correctly.

 

[michael hagerty]

Radio is a lot like Borders the bookstore, too afraid to face the facts of a competitive and changing media world. There's been little evolving lately, and ultimately it is taking itself down. The only people who deny this fact are the most high-ups, or the most disillusioned. Our arguement is that radio needs to evolve more creatively, and your argument is that it should practically remain the same as nothing is wrong.

Radio as a whole is its own conversation, but this format, which darn near died in the middle of the previous decade, is now a strong performer and attracting younger listeners than before. It's doing that through rigorously applied music testing, meticulously designed rotations and by adding music from more recent years...all things that get a lot of heat on this board. But the fact is, they are the reason there's a format to discuss in 2013.

Ok, but now those listeners (me being one you just described) are tired of it.

As John Cleese said in Monty Python's cheese shop sketch: "Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please."

Is there anything (evidence, not personal feelings or hearsay) to indicate that Classic Hits listeners as a whole are tired of it? The ratings and revenues suggest otherwise.

No, there's no hard research. But I honestly have yet to read positive reviews regarding classic hits programming. I hear from insiders "it works" but never from people "it's great and entertaining". I can think of entire websites and blogs (some of which have daily readers in the hunderds and thousands) where the topic is "forgotten hits" or even "things radio should be doing". I can think of media employees past and present who have written articles stating my same arguments. I see three stations Facebook pages with comments from fans asking for songs off the playlist or questioning repetition. I see from the people I talk to, or even am engaged in small talk with that they feel the same (and the argument extends beyond classic hits here). I read media journalists, media scholars articles, and things put out by DJ's or other PD's who are sometimes just as dumbfounded as I am regarding programming (WLS was one of those cases). Circumstantial? Maybe. But as the general public, I'm not seeing it. Why such heated arguments around the topic (and not just here) if it's all fine and great?

Ratings, their accuracy isn't direct feedback neccessarily. Captive listeners like me just endure the trash to hear a few hits we like because there's no place to go (well actually there's tons of classic hits stations, but they all play the same stuff). So, ratings don't account for the listeners who are listening as a result of the lesser of two evils. My thoughts on the PPM aside...

Hoverround...a little more extreme than my examples.

Regarding Chicago, sorry I've seen you make some references or show up on the board over there, I thought you might pay attention to some of the stuff going on. Never been? Aside from our radio ;D , we're a pretty great place!

I don't remember ever posting on the Chicago board. If I have, I can't imagine that it was more than a one-shot. I don't even look at the Chicago board because I'm not at all familiar with the market.

As for the format, it all goes back to understanding how your listeners use radio. Again, these are people a few years either side of 40 with jobs, kids, lives, interests and between 6 and 9 other pushbuttons. They don't think about or even talk about the radio station. They tune to it with a set of expectations. If you meet them, they come back and if you don't they don't. The sign that it's not working isn't Facebook posts, it's demos that go out of whack or a sustained decrease in ratings within the target demo.

Generally, when you pursue complaints of repetition, you find one of two things...people who are atypical listeners who hear songs repeated that the typical target listener doesn't, and typical listeners who tune in and hear a song they don't like. If they've heard it twice this year when looking for a favorite, their reaction is "Again?" and they push the button.

Remember, there's been a huge change in listener measurement. Radio could slide back when it was recall based. Name recognition counted for as much as (or perhaps more than) actual listening. People tended to fill in the diary at the end of the week and guesstimate how they divided their time between stations. Now, with PPM, the moment they punch the button and go elsewhere, Arbitron's logged it.

 

[michael hagerty]

Speaking of "reckless" WCBS played "Shame" by Evelyn Champagne King this afternoon. Got my attention.
What do you know, a rare one, an R&B/Disco one, and it's by a female. These songs can work!

Betcha they tested it and it did well.

And I'll betcha Bill Lee did one helluva talk-up of the intro.

 

[michael hagerty]

What it should tell you is that the list of viable candidates is extremely small.

That is very unfortunate. Thankfully there are other stations that "take the risk" as they say....
Not much of a risk anyways, considering some of these stations have been around for several years now, like Super Hits 106.

Around and successful in competitive markets where millions of dollars and dozens of jobs at stake are two very different things.

 

[oldies76]

Generally, when you pursue complaints of repetition, you find one of two things...people who are atypical listeners who hear songs repeated that the typical target listener doesn't, and typical listeners who tune in and hear a song they don't like. If they've heard it twice this year when looking for a favorite, their reaction is "Again?" and they push the button.

Right, but OTHER listeners may like that song. If "Brown Eyed Girl" is played, some will tune out due to overexposure, but many will stay on.

So, if a so-called "stiff" or a lost 45 is aired, the reaction will be the same, a few will tune out, and others will stay and think, "Have not heard that one since high school" and they'll stick it out longer.

Everyone has their favorites and dislikes Mr. Hagerty.

 

[michael hagerty]

Angel of the Morning -- Juice Newton (!)
Soul Deep -- Box Tops
Piano Man -- Billy Joel
No Reply -- Beatles
If This Is It -- Huey Lewis
Ain't Too Proud to Beg -- Temptations
Nights Are Forever Without You -- England Dan/JF Coley
Blinded by the Light -- Manfred Mann's Earth Band
Suavecito -- Malo
The Best of Times -- Styx
Sweet Soul Music -- Arthur Conley
Sir Duke -- Stevie Wonder
I'm a Man -- Spencer Davis Group
Here Comes the Rain Again -- Eurhythmics

Now, that's more like it....A couple of rarely played gems from 1981, especially Juice Newton. And a few of the "everyday" songs mixed in. Radio can do it, just correctly.

A town of fewer than 30,000, 40 miles from a major market, but without a signal to successfully compete in that market. This would only be an example that radio can do it if they threw a full city-grade signal into Boston and were beating WROR.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Milwaukee only has 18 signals that show up in Arbitron. Six of them are talk, news/talk or sports...one is Spanish language. So that's 11. If you factor out Country (just for this argument, because there are people who listen to Classic Hits and Country), the only remaining music stations are 2 CHRs, a Hot AC, a Variety Hits, an AC, an alternative an Urban plus an AM Classic Country and a AAA run by a non-profit. Simply put, there are far fewer places for the audience to tune out to and far fewer competitors for the ad buys.

Actually both WJMK and WLS make it well into Kenosha/Racine, and barring any weird weather, aren't difficult to pick up in downtown Milwaukee. Giving them 3 shots of classic hits.

You have such faith in testing. If a song is played, then it tested well, if it's not, then it didn't. In the past thread you (I think, but lol, I've been wrong about you) posted how LA (for example) is not filled with the same audience of people that grew up there necessarily. The US isn't all that regionalized anymore. People move around lots, and local tastes are dimminished in radio. Then my point is that why would "Shame" show up only in one place, and not anywhere else. CBS does great, so you know they don't "risk it".

There's no way "Shame" is getting regular testing then. I'll believe the testing once I see or hear proof that a much larger variety of songs go through it. It seems like the pool of testing is virtually always the same ones. I illustrated that in my own experience on the last thread as well. There is neither sufficient time, nor sufficient money to accurately test a boatload of songs with potential. Classic Hits stations are always fine with "good enough", never seeming to push the bar higher.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

What it should tell you is that the list of viable candidates is extremely small.

That is very unfortunate. Thankfully there are other stations that "take the risk" as they say....
Not much of a risk anyways, considering some of these stations have been around for several years now, like Super Hits 106.

Around and successful in competitive markets where millions of dollars and dozens of jobs at stake are two very different things.

Jobs at stake doesn't bother radio; One of the most ruthless, conglomerate driven industries I've ever seen. Again, a BIG part of the problem - the rule of a few.

 

[michael hagerty]

Generally, when you pursue complaints of repetition, you find one of two things...people who are atypical listeners who hear songs repeated that the typical target listener doesn't, and typical listeners who tune in and hear a song they don't like. If they've heard it twice this year when looking for a favorite, their reaction is "Again?" and they push the button.

Right, but OTHER listeners may like that song. If "Brown Eyed Girl" is played, some will tune out due to overexposure, but many will stay on.


So, if a so-called "stiff" or a lost 45 is aired, the reaction will be the same, a few will tune out, and others will stay and think, "Have not heard that one since high school" and they'll stick it out longer.

You're now suggesting that a "stiff" or "lost 45" will have the same tuneout as a record that tests exceptionally well. That simply is not true. That's the point of testing...to identify and play the songs with the lowest tuneout potential.

If you play a song that you have tested and it's done poorly, you're deliberately blowing off audience that is extremely unlikely to leave if you play a song that has tested well. And again, among the desired target, those people have lives and alternatives. It's not three minutes out of an hour...it might take a day or two for those listeners to work their way back to you. And if you're playing another "stiff" or "lost 45" when they do, the perception will be that you used to be a station they like but all of a sudden you're playing music they really don't care for. And you may not get them back in a day or two after that.

 

[michael hagerty]

Milwaukee only has 18 signals that show up in Arbitron. Six of them are talk, news/talk or sports...one is Spanish language. So that's 11. If you factor out Country (just for this argument, because there are people who listen to Classic Hits and Country), the only remaining music stations are 2 CHRs, a Hot AC, a Variety Hits, an AC, an alternative an Urban plus an AM Classic Country and a AAA run by a non-profit. Simply put, there are far fewer places for the audience to tune out to and far fewer competitors for the ad buys.

Actually both WJMK and WLS make it well into Kenosha/Racine, and barring any weird weather, aren't difficult to pick up in downtown Milwaukee. Giving them 3 shots of classic hits.

You have such faith in testing. If a song is played, then it tested well, if it's not, then it didn't. In the past thread you (I think, but lol, I've been wrong about you) posted how LA (for example) is not filled with the same audience of people that grew up there necessarily. The US isn't all that regionalized anymore. People move around lots, and local tastes are dimminished in radio. Then my point is that why would "Shame" show up only in one place, and not anywhere else. CBS does great, so you know they don't "risk it".

There's no way "Shame" is getting regular testing then. I'll believe the testing once I see or hear proof that a much larger variety of songs go through it. It seems like the pool of testing is virtually always the same ones. I illustrated that in my own experience on the last thread as well. There is neither sufficient time, nor sufficient money to accurately test a boatload of songs with potential. Classic Hits stations are always fine with "good enough", never seeming to push the bar higher.

The typical listener doesn't DX or tolerate even slight imperfections in reception. Suburban signals within the same market suffer because of that. FM signals from 93 miles away aren't direct competition. They certainly don't factor into ad agency buys in the Milwaukee market.

As for "Shame", I don't know that WCBS-FM is the only Classic Hits station in America testing and playing it. In fact, I know it's not, because I hear it on KOOL-FM here in Phoenix. And given the disco-era stuff on KRTH, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it's testing and playing there.

The issue about people not living where they grew up is why you test. You can't rely on "it was #1 on WKTU in 1978". What matters is what the people who listen to WCBS-FM and who WCBS-FM wants to listen want to hear in 2013.

Have you ever seen a list for a music test? If not, how do you know what the pool of songs tested contains?

Here's the clue that the list is very large: Those songs that people are complaining about that have displaced the 60s songs? That leap from 300 titles to 800-plus at KRTH? Those songs that weren't getting play until '07 or so?

Those all got tested and tested well.

"Satisfied with good enough and not willing to push the bar higher" is not how the format got from life support to the ratings and revenue it has now.

 

[CTListener]

Up the coast from Boston, in Gloucester, Mass., is 104.9 WBOQ, where most of WODS's old playlist lives on -- along with a bunch of playlist padders that attest, no doubt, to its lack of testing. Although its signal reaches the Boston area, reception in Boston proper is impossible thanks to a Class D squatter on the frequency, Northeastern University's WRBB. Anyway, here's the last hour:

Angel of the Morning -- Juice Newton (!)
Soul Deep -- Box Tops
Piano Man -- Billy Joel
No Reply -- Beatles
If This Is It -- Huey Lewis
Ain't Too Proud to Beg -- Temptations
Nights Are Forever Without You -- England Dan/JF Coley
Blinded by the Light -- Manfred Mann's Earth Band
Suavecito -- Malo
The Best of Times -- Styx
Sweet Soul Music -- Arthur Conley
Sir Duke -- Stevie Wonder
I'm a Man -- Spencer Davis Group
Here Comes the Rain Again -- Eurhythmics

They probably don't do tests due to expense, but there's nothing really reckless on that list, either. If I'm playing late 60s, though, I'm going with Merrilee Rush instead of Juice Newton.

Nothing really reckless? I should have waited 10 minutes before posting. That's when they played the Carpenters' "Top of the World"!

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

If you could provide me with a list of tested songs recently, I may finally buy your entire side. And I don't mean examples like David's (his markets of comparable size to Phoenix, or Omaha or wherever, or makets with 17 million people), but a concrete station, city, and list. Then I can see it your way.

I've participated in 2 online ones. One (which I talked in detail about on the last thread) was 30 songs each week. ALL from the regular playlist. The other, an 800 song one, (actually a 300 song Christmas online one too, not too long after) and again ALL on the regular list. So the only thing I saw them getting out of that was number of spins, not what to spin. Regardless of the effectivenss of these (as David put down last time) this is my exposure to tests.

Please set me straight then, I'd love to see a list!!!

 

[michael hagerty]

What it should tell you is that the list of viable candidates is extremely small.

That is very unfortunate. Thankfully there are other stations that "take the risk" as they say....
Not much of a risk anyways, considering some of these stations have been around for several years now, like Super Hits 106.

Around and successful in competitive markets where millions of dollars and dozens of jobs at stake are two very different things.

Jobs at stake doesn't bother radio; One of the most ruthless, conglomerate driven industries I've ever seen. Again, a BIG part of the problem - the rule of a few.

You've just lumped people (GMs, PDs) who have offered to take salary cuts to save the people on their staffs, who have cried during termination meetings because they were more torn up than the jock they were letting go, in with those (and there are those) who are heartless.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Up the coast from Boston, in Gloucester, Mass., is 104.9 WBOQ, where most of WODS's old playlist lives on -- along with a bunch of playlist padders that attest, no doubt, to its lack of testing. Although its signal reaches the Boston area, reception in Boston proper is impossible thanks to a Class D squatter on the frequency, Northeastern University's WRBB. Anyway, here's the last hour:

Angel of the Morning -- Juice Newton (!)
Soul Deep -- Box Tops
Piano Man -- Billy Joel
No Reply -- Beatles
If This Is It -- Huey Lewis
Ain't Too Proud to Beg -- Temptations
Nights Are Forever Without You -- England Dan/JF Coley
Blinded by the Light -- Manfred Mann's Earth Band
Suavecito -- Malo
The Best of Times -- Styx
Sweet Soul Music -- Arthur Conley
Sir Duke -- Stevie Wonder
I'm a Man -- Spencer Davis Group
Here Comes the Rain Again -- Eurhythmics

They probably don't do tests due to expense, but there's nothing really reckless on that list, either. If I'm playing late 60s, though, I'm going with Merrilee Rush instead of Juice Newton.

Nothing really reckless? I should have waited 10 minutes before posting. That's when they played the Carpenters' "Top of the World"!

CARPENTERS??? Well call it quits, that stations tanking as we speak! :

 

[michael hagerty]

Up the coast from Boston, in Gloucester, Mass., is 104.9 WBOQ, where most of WODS's old playlist lives on -- along with a bunch of playlist padders that attest, no doubt, to its lack of testing. Although its signal reaches the Boston area, reception in Boston proper is impossible thanks to a Class D squatter on the frequency, Northeastern University's WRBB. Anyway, here's the last hour:

Angel of the Morning -- Juice Newton (!)
Soul Deep -- Box Tops
Piano Man -- Billy Joel
No Reply -- Beatles
If This Is It -- Huey Lewis
Ain't Too Proud to Beg -- Temptations
Nights Are Forever Without You -- England Dan/JF Coley
Blinded by the Light -- Manfred Mann's Earth Band
Suavecito -- Malo
The Best of Times -- Styx
Sweet Soul Music -- Arthur Conley
Sir Duke -- Stevie Wonder
I'm a Man -- Spencer Davis Group
Here Comes the Rain Again -- Eurhythmics

They probably don't do tests due to expense, but there's nothing really reckless on that list, either. If I'm playing late 60s, though, I'm going with Merrilee Rush instead of Juice Newton.

Nothing really reckless? I should have waited 10 minutes before posting. That's when they played the Carpenters' "Top of the World"!

Okay, that's reckless!