Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[PirateJohnny]

"Johnny here on MOYL. That was Lady Gaga's Recurrent. After I finish this VO, I'm going to play a stop-set, then a sweeper, and then I'll do another VO of WX while I hit the post on an oldie by Carly Rae Jepson."

 

[benale]

This has to be one of the longest and most fascinating threads on this board and it is still going on! My 2 cents...when I hear the term "oldies" I think of 1955 to 1975. Every song that made the chart is technically an oldie, but when I think of that term I think of that era.

I'm out of the demo, as many posters on this board are and I do appreciate music from the 80's onward. I don't enjoy harder rock or rap. Both genres are hard to listen to. To each his own, but I would much rather listen to Frankie Ford's "Sea Cruise" than "Rappers Delight". My older ears always gravitate back to the 50's and 60's.

The Beatles are widely considered to be the greatest group in history. I turned 15 when "I Want to Hold Your Hand" hit the charts and I never looked back. I always wondered if I was 34 instead of 64 would I hold the Beatles in such high regard?

 

[michael hagerty]

Links worth following:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=&source=hp&ei=XthYUaeyOoGa9gTE7IDABg&q=90s+oldies&oq=90s+oldies&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.0l2j0i22i30l3.4317.14345.0.17211.16.11.3.2.2.0.514.2327.2j1j5j1j0j1.10.0...0.0...1c.1.7.mobile-gws-hp.T4NFDmxGVSM

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=H9lYUf2gLcXTqgHj2IHYDw&q=2000s+oldies&oq=2000s+oldies&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...40278.41590.0.41990.2.2.0.0.0.0.279.539.2-2.2.0...0.0...1c.1.7.mobile-gws-serp.32pEOtBhqgA

 

[michael hagerty]

Obviously, it's far more prevalent in reference to 90s music than 2000s, but it's clear there are human beings out there who are themselves using the term "oldies" to reference music from their pasts but within the last 23 years.

Putting a fence around the world "oldies" is futile. It's a word people use for old music. And as new crops of 30-somethings want to reminisce, each successive wave will have less and less personal memory of the time when the word was used to promote radio stations playing 50s, 60s and 70s music.

The term was feared by advertisers precisely because it had been allowed to become stuck in an era and doomed to an audience that was inevitably aging out.

I have no idea whether radio will use the term the way people do again. But demographically, it is inevitable that there will come a time when the old stigma no longer applies because the desireable demo means their oldies when they say "oldies".

 

[semoochie]

I do so hate to repeat myself. In the 1950s and 60s, a non-current hit song was referred to as an "oldie", on the radio. This use was widespread and consistent. Everyone in the demo knew what it meant. This reference ended sometime before 1970 so after that, younger people didn't have a direct connection of linking the word to older songs. When a format based on older tunes became viable, "Oldies" was the obvious choice for a name because there was no doubt what it meant to anyone likely to listen. After the music advanced past 1970, this no longer applied. For newer audiences to relate to the word "Oldies", it has to be based on what the station says it is but there's no childhood "zing" that takes place upon hearing the word. It's just a radio format and unless stations again start referring to non-current hits as oldies, there's no basis for it to happen again, where the word defines an era. This doesn't mean that "Oldies" won't continue to be a desciptor of older music but as far as describing 50s-70s, that will soon only apply to older audiences and finally, no one.

 

[michael hagerty]

I do so hate to repeat myself. In the 1950s and 60s, a non-current hit song was referred to as an "oldie", on the radio. This use was widespread and consistent. Everyone in the demo knew what it meant. This reference ended sometime before 1970 so after that, younger people didn't have a direct connection of linking the word to older songs. When a format based on older tunes became viable, "Oldies" was the obvious choice for a name because there was no doubt what it meant to anyone likely to listen. After the music advanced past 1970, this no longer applied. For newer audiences to relate to the word "Oldies", it has to be based on what the station says it is but there's no childhood "zing" that takes place upon hearing the word. It's just a radio format and unless stations again start referring to non-current hits as oldies, there's no basis for it to happen again, where the word defines an era. This doesn't mean that "Oldies" won't continue to be a desciptor of older music but as far as describing 50s-70s, that will soon only apply to older audiences and finally, no one.

Two things:

I have no idea why you think the practice of identifying a non-current record as an "oldie" on the radio ended before 1970, but there are hundreds of hours of airchecks that prove you wrong.

And, if you follow the Google links I posted a couple of hours ago, you'll find younger people do, in fact, use the term in reference to music from the past 23 years.

Those who view oldies as tied to a calendar will die out. Its current usage as illustrated by the Google search suggests the word will survive and return to its original meaning, tied to the life and experience of the person using it. Which is as it should be.

 

[semoochie]

I used to hear the term all the time in the 60s. I don't remember ever hearing it by 1970. I continued not to hear it until the Oldies format began to show up or when an "Oldies But Goodies" album was being sold. It could've just been in my area. Maybe, the east coast or midwest was different.

 

[michael hagerty]

I used to hear the term all the time in the 60s. I don't remember ever hearing it by 1970. I continued not to hear it until the Oldies format began to show up or when an "Oldies But Goodies" album was being sold. It could've just been in my area. Maybe, the east coast or midwest was different.

Individual stations and markets varied. And it's surprising the holes you find in your memory when you sit down with a few hundred unscoped airchecks over the course of a year spanning 1956-2004 and listen chronologically. I had all kinds of stuff wrong by memory.

 

[oldies76]

Until then, Oldies are 1955-1984ish.

I have to agree with you Landtuna. Maybe you can break it down further, 1955-1963 (Golden Oldies), 1964-1984 (Oldies). If today's 30 somethings want to call 90's music, their oldies, that's up to them and I can see where it could fit for them, but not for us. Of course, music of the 50's, 60's & 70's for someone born in 1980 could be called "ultra-oldies", who knows!

Even though I was 16 in 1983, I'll consider them "oldies"....they are 30 years old now.

 

[oldies76]

Both are in my personal library and so are approximately 4,000 others from the era. That library contains stiffs and Hot 100's and is, in total, a legacy and one that won't be topped in our lifetimes and likely that of our children's as well.

They are called "stiffs" by execs and programmers who only work in the radio industry. And yes, no future era will ever top all those great songs, including the two David had to mention.

Oh btw, none of the thousands of songs I've managed to obtain over the years are "stiffs", they are "hits". ;D

 

[landtuna]

And, if you follow the Google links I posted a couple of hours ago, you'll find younger people do, in fact, use the term in reference to music from the past 23 years.

As someone posted earlier, young people tend to use "old school" to identify anything having happened "before their time". Hey, I didn't invent the term oldie, radio did. They popularized it, branded their stations after it and then abandoned it when it adopted a negative sales connotation.

Those who view oldies as tied to a calendar will die out.

Of course, just like every other living thing.

Its current usage as illustrated by the Google search suggests the word will survive and return to its original meaning, tied to the life and experience of the person using it. Which is as it should be.

Neither Google nor Wikipedia are the references to the American language lexicon. We all recognize that the use of any word is dependent upon context. A 1923 Model T is an oldie. So is my great uncle. In a music context an Oldie is as I have defined.

I'm guessing it will be another 30-40 years before the term Oldie as it applies to music will go extinct. In the meantime there will be countless other words, phrases and sounds that the youngsters of tomorrow will adopt to try to be different than their parents or grandparents. Who knows what words will be popular then? Perhaps like the word "groovy" which arose during the 60's and then again 30 years later oldies will reinvent itself into another completely different meaning.

The Oldies Era will eventually pass into history but it will leave behind a legacy that no other musical period can match. Besides pure entertainment it drove the youngsters of my generation to march in the streets demanding equal rights and an end to unjust wars. It created a generation of people who, upon becoming adults, did not accept the status quo and were not afraid to challenge people in authority to put things right. It forced an end to the Vietnam War, conscription and the careers of two corrupt and dishonorable presidents. It forced society to look beyond the length of ones hair, or their gender, to find the value of a person. These reasons, and many more, are why the Oldies Era should be remembered, if for nothing else than the experimentation and innovation that went on almost uninterrupted for 30 years. The people who did not live through it can listen to the songs but they cannot feel the vibes that were the heart and soul of that time. As for those of us who did, we can be eternally grateful that the music of our lives was fundamental in the largest societal change in our nations history excepting the Great Depression.

 

[michael hagerty]

And, if you follow the Google links I posted a couple of hours ago, you'll find younger people do, in fact, use the term in reference to music from the past 23 years.

As someone posted earlier, young people tend tod use "old school" to identify anything having happened "before their time".

That was David, and that's true. But following those Google search links (You did do that, right? )reveals that there actually are people referring to music they grew up with from 1990 onward as "Oldies".

Hey, I didn't invent the term oldie, radio did. They popularized it, branded their stations after it and then abandoned it when it adopted a negative sales connotation.

Radio didn't invent it. They used a word that had been in common usage for nearly 100 years at that point that described the music and applied it in the way the people used it. The aberration occurred when Boomers wouldn't let the music evolve past a certain point. It was never the intent of radio to define an era...just to play past hits for 25-54 year old adults. For that to be an ongoing business, that requires adaptation to age-in and age-out.

We all recognize that the use of any word is dependent upon context. A 1923 Model T is an oldie. So is my great uncle. In a music context an Oldie is as I have defined.

Also Sprach Landtuna.

Honestly, I thought I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek with my "People of Earth" notice this afternoon.

The Oldies Era will eventually pass into history but it will leave behind a legacy that no other musical period can match. Besides pure entertainment it drove the youngsters of my generation to march in the streets demanding equal rights and an end to unjust wars. It created a generation of people who, upon becoming adults, did not accept the status quo and were not afraid to challenge people in authority to put things right. It forced an end to the Vietnam War, conscription and the careers of two corrupt and dishonorable presidents. It forced society to look beyond the length of ones hair, or their gender, to find the value of a person. These reasons, and many more, are why the Oldies Era should be remembered, if for nothing else than the experimentation and innovation that went on almost uninterrupted for 30 years. The people who did not live through it can listen to the songs but they cannot feel the vibes that were the heart and soul of that time. As for those of us who did, we can be eternally grateful that the music of our lives was fundamental in the largest societal change in our nations history excepting the Great Depression.

Holy crap.

Even Joan Baez and Bob Dylan would keep their egos in check and say maybe they provided a soundtrack for turbulent times and inspired a few people.

Pop music didn't do any of those things. People did. An historic number of people all approaching draft, college and voting age in an era when you could see firehoses and dogs being turned on people for the color of their skin and watch the boy next door begin his journey home in a body bag while eating your frozen TV dinner.

Some of it was spurred by legitimate outrage by decent young people that their country's words and actions didn't always match. Some of it was self-preservation and some was riding the bandwagon because it was hip. It was still significant enough to cause those changes.

Did rock and roll play a part? Yes. Would these things have happened without it? Likely so. In the same way we would have won World War II without Artie Shaw and the Andrews Sisters, the brutality against Americans based upon their race, little girls running down roads after their clothes were burned off by napalm and corrupt administrations far more willing to risk young American lives than the loss of the next election would have provoked a response without a big beat coming out of a transistor radio.

 

[davideduardo]

I used to hear the term all the time in the 60s. I don't remember ever hearing it by 1970. I continued not to hear it until the Oldies format began to show up or when an "Oldies But Goodies" album was being sold. It could've just been in my area. Maybe, the east coast or midwest was different.

The oldies format began to appear around 1968-69. Barry Richards programmed WMOD in DC in '68, and Jack Alix did Million Dollar Music WEEL in suburban DC in '69. Those are just two examples.

Your memory on when oldies or oldies based stations began to appear is, as Michael mentions, distorted by time.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Search "oldies" on iTunes, Amazon, whatever - and what you'll get is mostly 50's-70's stuff.

Yes SOME people may refer to songs as "oldies" based on time frame, rather than a time period. HOWEVER, I guarantee you, ask anyone on the street and "oldies" will generally be accepted as early rock-and-roll music. I think it's a good term that aptly fits several genres of popular music from that time period. Radio (and other factors mentioned) made it that way, and it has obviously stuck.

Michael, your way of looking at it is not wrong, it's just that that in many of our opinions, it is far from the mainstream language.

Again, no one my age refers to songs as "oldies" unless they really are the Elvis, Beatles, Motown songs that once were found on "oldies radio".

 

[michael hagerty]

Biondi:

Both you and Landtuna have said "no one" your age uses the term "oldies" to describe anything other than music from 1955-1984 (ish).

Landtuna took it further:

When I hear a person born in 1980 call a song released in 1995 an "Oldie" I will change my opinion. Until then, Oldies are 1955-1984ish.

All the Google search does is prove that people born after 1980 are using the word now, publicly, to describe music they grew up with in the past 23 years.

I'm not voicing an opinion. I've stated facts:

1) The word "oldies" predates the format by 100 years as a description of a song from the past.

2) Until Boomers insisted it not progress further, oldies radio used the sliding scale approach to the music.

3) People outside the Baby Boom generation continue to use the term to describe songs from their past.

4) As the Boomer generation dies off, so will first-hand memory of the brief period in which "oldies" was used to describe a specific era of music played on radio stations.

Every one of those is a fact, not an opinion.

And I don't understand what's so controversial here. I'm not saying anyone can't or shouldn't call 1955-84 (ish) music oldies. I'm just saying that anyone who calls music from their past "oldies" is equally correct. And as they do, things will be returning to the historical norm for the use of that word.

"No! No! We want our language choice to be dictated by a business decision made by broadcasters to appeal to a generation other than ours that insisted on a rigid approach to a format."

...said no one, ever.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

I too don't understand the controversy. I didn't throw out your links as meaningless, it's just that in my opinion, you're overstating the word's application to newer material - from what me and Landtuna have experienced (very different age groups) the word still has GENERALLY the same connotation - 50's - 70's music.

It's not like anyone is "attached" to the word, or wants to take it to their grave. It's just that few around here see the term being able to aptly define a shifting segment of popular music.

Of course there will be exceptions, but I don't feel that your links prove the term's meaning in everyday language in a significant or ample fashion.

 

[michael hagerty]

I too don't understand the controversy. I didn't throw out your links as meaningless, it's just that in my opinion, you're overstating the word's application to newer material - from what me and Landtuna have experienced (very different age groups) the word still has GENERALLY the same connotation - 50's - 70's music.

It's not like anyone is "attached" to the word, or wants to take it to their grave. It's just that few around here see the term being able to aptly define a shifting segment of popular music.

Of course there will be exceptions, but I don't feel that your links prove the term's meaning in everyday language in a significant or ample fashion.

How is saying there are people who use the term for music they grew up with in the past 23 years overstating but saying "no one" uses the term for that not?

And Landtuna seems to be attached. To the grave and beyond. An "oldies era" legacy. Stated several times with increasing passion.

 

[landtuna]

That was David, and that's true. But following those Google search links (You did do that, right?) reveals that there actually are people referring to music they grew up with from 1990 onward as "Oldies".

I'm sure you could find truth to any example if you looked hard enough. What I and others referred to was the common phrase.

Radio didn't invent it. They used a word that had been in common usage for nearly 100 years at that point that described the music and applied it in the way the people used it. The aberration occurred when Boomers wouldn't let the music evolve past a certain point. It was never the intent of radio to define an era...just to play past hits for 25-54 year old adults. For that to be an ongoing business, that requires adaptation to age-in and age-out.

I should have used the word "adopted" instead of "invented". And I'm unsure what your next sentence means as Boomers, per se, didn't have anything directly to do with the music "evolving". That would have been done by the artists themselves.

Radio doesn't have a problem with other genre's being defined such as Big Band and Nostalgia and MOYL. Why would they have a problem with Oldies? Especially, like the others, it could be considered untouchable to the sales staff.

Also Sprach Landtuna.

Honestly, I thought I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek with my "People of Earth" notice this afternoon.

I'm making an argument. How else should I phrase it?

Even Joan Baez and Bob Dylan would keep their egos in check and say maybe they provided a soundtrack for turbulent times and inspired a few people.

Interesting you mention those two because just the other day on PBS there was an introspective on Baez and, of course, her association with Dylan. They did much more than inspire a few people. Whole college campuses got involved in addition to countless others who were not in college at the time. They were influential enough to upset multiple presidents, the mayor of Chicago (and other cities) and the FBI. Some people were willing to put themselves in harms way (see Kent State University) for those beliefs. No, the music didn't make them march but it sure influenced a hell of a lot of people. I was living in the Bay Area then and remember well the constant turmoil.

Pop music didn't do any of those things. People did. An historic number of people all approaching draft, college and voting age in an era when you could see firehoses and dogs being turned on people for the color of their skin and watch the boy next door begin his journey home in a body bag while eating your frozen TV dinner.

Yes, Vietnam and the civil rights movement were both daily TV events and in between the stories on the little screen we were reminded almost constantly by the radio.

Did rock and roll play a part? Yes. Would these things have happened without it? Likely so. In the same way we would have won World War II without Artie Shaw and the Andrews Sisters, the brutality against Americans based upon their race, little girls running down roads after their clothes were burned off by napalm and corrupt administrations far more willing to risk young American lives than the loss of the next election would have provoked a response without a big beat coming out of a transistor radio.

The music of WWII tended to be patriotic and very upbeat compared to that of the Vietnam War. Even the music that made fun of our enemies (such as Der Fuhrer's Face by Spike Jones) were comedies as were the theater cartoons of the time. There were many propaganda films of course but not music. Even after the very bloody first two years the music didn't reflect the effects of combat as happened during Vietnam. I can not remember any music published in the few years before Pearl Harbor that advocated dissention with official government policy although there were organizations that pushed the non-intervention policy.

 

[landtuna]

And Landtuna seems to be attached. To the grave and beyond. An "oldies era" legacy. Stated several times with increasing passion.

I am not "attached" other than I do not believe it is accurate to consider Oldies a moving time period. "Jazz Age" is well-defined in time even though jazz is still being performed. So is "Big Band". "Standards" not as rigid as the others but still associated with late 40's early 50's and sporadically afterward. "Disco" has a defined time period. Oldies seems to be the only significant exception. I am arguing for nothing more than equal treatment.

"Oldies" (lower case) is not specific. It simply means something old. "Oldies" (upper case) in a music context refers to a specific type and time.

 

[michael hagerty]

That was David, and that's true. But following those Google search links (You did do that, right?) reveals that there actually are people referring to music they grew up with from 1990 onward as "Oldies".

I'm sure you could find truth to any example if you looked hard enough. What I and others referred to was the common phrase.

It was 5 seconds with Google and the phrase "90s oldies".

There's a big difference between "no one uses it" and common usage. The search was in response to your remark that, until you hear someone born in 1980 calling a 1995 song an oldie, oldies means 1955-1984(ish).

Radio didn't invent it. They used a word that had been in common usage for nearly 100 years at that point that described the music and applied it in the way the people used it. The aberration occurred when Boomers wouldn't let the music evolve past a certain point. It was never the intent of radio to define an era...just to play past hits for 25-54 year old adults. For that to be an ongoing business, that requires adaptation to age-in and age-out.

I should have used the word "adopted" instead of "invented". And I'm unsure what your next sentence means as Boomers, per se, didn't have anything directly to do with the music "evolving". That would have been done by the artists themselves.

I meant the music in the format. As noted, with exceptions like KRTH trying to protect a Top 40 sister station, the Oldies format went up to a year old and was on a sliding scale until it hit a wall with upper-end Boomers (then approaching their 40s and prime advertiser territory) who refused to let the music, with very few exceptions, go beyond 1973/74.

Broadcasters tried for two decades to break that logjam but couldn't and watched helplessly as the demos got progressively older and the format became harder to sell to advertisers.

Radio doesn't have a problem with other genre's being defined such as Big Band and Nostalgia and MOYL. Why would they have a problem with Oldies? Especially, like the others, it could be considered untouchable to the sales staff.

Like oldies, nostalgia and big band became tough sells. Big Band's pretty well gone as a stand-alone format.

Nostalgia and MOYL (Music of Your Life, a specific, copyrighted service providing a nostalgia format) have broken the barriers on their eras as well. Originally playing music from 1935-1970, the stations are now playing little if any pre-1955 material and have added a substantial amount of late 70s/early 80s Adult Contemporary tracks, many of which were also played on Top 40 at the time. It's now the Music of Someone Else's Life. Still nostalgia.

But you see, nostalgia, like oldies, is a word with a long history of use and a meaning that ties to individual experience. Jazz is a type of music. So is Big Band. And those were terms coined specifically for that music. To put a single term to an era with music as diverse as 1955-1984 (ish) is a huge task. To lump it under a word that already had usage and meaning isn't logical and won't hold over time as those who personally experienced the usage leave us.