Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[landtuna]

And for crying out loud, if a 29-year old song isn't an "oldie", what the hell is?

"Oldies" define music from a specific period in time, not a sliding scale. To be considered an Oldie a record should have been released during the 1st or 2nd generations of what we normally call "The Rock Era" or roughly 1955-early 80's. These were the songs played on Top-40 radio during this time but there are exceptions. Disco, for instance, was played on some T-40's but are not considered Oldies. Nor are Country crossovers, or Standards. Jazz are not Oldies but some individual songs, due to their popularity, were played on T-40 such as "Take Five".

A 29-year old record can be an Oldie if it meets the criteria above but it falls into that fuzzy period in the mid-80's when pop became junk and didn't sound like the music that proceeded it. I personally would not consider "She Bop" an Oldie.

Oldies stop at the early 80's. Any record released after that period will never be an Oldie. Call them Classic Hits or any other relatively meaningless term, but NOT Oldies.

My .02. YMMV.

 

[michael hagerty]

My mileage varies. Sorry, but I heard people of my parents' generation (born 1917 and 1922) refer to songs from the past (5 years or more) as "oldies", "moldy oldies" and "oldies but goodies". Art Laboe's "Oldies But Goodies" album set (and the Penguins' "Memories of El Monte") didn't invent the term, they just applied it to a then-new set of music.

 

[semoochie]

That's the furthest forward that I've ever heard anyone qualify the status of an oldie. An "oldie" used to be a non-current song. At some point, the early 70s was the brick wall. Now it's moved up to the early 80s. I'm sure that 50 years from now, a song will only be considered an oldie, if released before 2020. I'm sorry that I'm going to miss that generation's desciption of "the good old days" and why the kids' music is junk. In a somewhat related area, there's a quote from someone about the younger generation, that sounds very contemporary but was written in about 500 BC!

 

[firepoint525]

The small AM station in the town where I grew up referred to basically anything that was no longer on the charts as "gold." They once played Maxine Nightingale "Right Back Where We Started From" about three months after it was a hit, and referred to it as "not too old gold." They had their "solid gold weekends." "Every other hit was a blast from the past" as they put it. These goofy goofball marketers who are trying to jettison the 55+ because the younger than 55 among us supposedly "don't remember" songs from the '50s and '60s don't get it. Hell, I grew up with those songs. The only 40-somethings in my former hometown who "don't remember" songs from the '50s would be those who have amnesia. : '50s through '70s REGULARLY played on top 40 radio when I was growing up.

 

[firepoint525]

David, do you think KOLA will have to build an entirely new audience...or do you think a lot of the fans of '60s-'70s music will continue listening? I don't imagine there are a lot of people who like the majority of music from the '60s and the '90s.

If it performs as designed, they will shed many of the 55+ listeners quite quickly, while building over a longer time a base with more 40-54 year olds who did not use the station in the past due to the "geezer songs".

I'll bet that's what's happened to WDRC-FM here in Connecticut. It jettisoned most of its '60s titles, added a bunch more '80s songs and saw its 6+ number go from the mid-6's to the low 9's in just two books. Anecdotal evidence: My barber is in her early 40s. She used to have AC WRCH on in the shop, but has recently switched to DRC-FM. I asked her about it last time I was there -- we were laughing about an "oldies" staion playing "She Bop" -- and she said, "I love every song they play." And they're not playing "There's a Kind of Hush" or "Don't Be Cruel" anymore.

My experience was 180 degrees different from this. I go in for a haircut, they have the local AC playing, I ask them (almost always women, mind you) about it, and they are almost always exasperated by the lack of variety. They have been listening for so long that they can pick up patterns that even you and I would miss. "If they play this, they will play that next," etc.

 

[CTListener]

David, do you think KOLA will have to build an entirely new audience...or do you think a lot of the fans of '60s-'70s music will continue listening? I don't imagine there are a lot of people who like the majority of music from the '60s and the '90s.

If it performs as designed, they will shed many of the 55+ listeners quite quickly, while building over a longer time a base with more 40-54 year olds who did not use the station in the past due to the "geezer songs".

I'll bet that's what's happened to WDRC-FM here in Connecticut. It jettisoned most of its '60s titles, added a bunch more '80s songs and saw its 6+ number go from the mid-6's to the low 9's in just two books. Anecdotal evidence: My barber is in her early 40s. She used to have AC WRCH on in the shop, but has recently switched to DRC-FM. I asked her about it last time I was there -- we were laughing about an "oldies" staion playing "She Bop" -- and she said, "I love every song they play." And they're not playing "There's a Kind of Hush" or "Don't Be Cruel" anymore.

My experience was 180 degrees different from this. I go in for a haircut, they have the local AC playing, I ask them (almost always women, mind you) about it, and they are almost always exasperated by the lack of variety. They have been listening for so long that they can pick up patterns that even you and I would miss. "If they play this, they will play that next," etc.

Even without most of the '60s titles, DRC still plays twice as many songs as RCH, so it could be my barber was tired of the AC repetition too. But given her enthusiasm for classic hits, I'm guessing that it was more a case of the AC playing too much current music for her tastes.

 

[landtuna]

My mileage varies. Sorry, but I heard people of my parents' generation (born 1917 and 1922) refer to songs from the past (5 years or more) as "oldies", "moldy oldies" and "oldies but goodies". Art Laboe's "Oldies But Goodies" album set (and the Penguins' "Memories of El Monte") didn't invent the term, they just applied it to a then-new set of music.

I understand your point but my use of the label applies to radio genre definitions and not street terminology. A self-described Oldie station playing Guns 'n Roses is not describing itself correctly.

My generation (slightly pre-Boomer) has used the term "mouldy oldies" since I was a teen but it isn't a radio genre term. "Oldies but Goodies" albums came out in the early 60's (or slightly prior) - almost in the heart of the 1st generation of the music. And that makes my point. Those songs of that era are known as Oldies and have been almost since their release.

The Oldies calendar has to start and stop somewhere otherwise there is no valid definition to describe the era. Perhaps we should change the description but I'm not sure a better name is available as the current one has been in use so long.

 

[landtuna]

In a somewhat related area, there's a quote from someone about the younger generation, that sounds very contemporary but was written in about 500 BC!

You mean:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato.

 

[michael hagerty]

My mileage varies. Sorry, but I heard people of my parents' generation (born 1917 and 1922) refer to songs from the past (5 years or more) as "oldies", "moldy oldies" and "oldies but goodies". Art Laboe's "Oldies But Goodies" album set (and the Penguins' "Memories of El Monte") didn't invent the term, they just applied it to a then-new set of music.

I understand your point but my use of the label applies to radio genre definitions and not street terminology. A self-described Oldie station playing Guns 'n Roses is not describing itself correctly.

My generation (slightly pre-Boomer) has used the term "mouldy oldies" since I was a teen but it isn't a radio genre term. "Oldies but Goodies" albums came out in the early 60's (or slightly prior) - almost in the heart of the 1st generation of the music. And that makes my point. Those songs of that era are known as Oldies and have been almost since their release.

The Oldies calendar has to start and stop somewhere otherwise there is no valid definition to describe the era. Perhaps we should change the description but I'm not sure a better name is available as the current one has been in use so long.

And I see your point, except...

Radio genre terms for formats and street terminology should match as closely as possible. It allows the station to say "We are (blank)" and have the audience say "Yeah, that's exactly right."

Oldies was in that sweet spot for the years that it played songs the desirable demo considered oldies.

Webster's dictionary says the use of the term "oldie" dates back to 1874, and simply means a song from an earlier day. Every generation has their oldies. Mine (Baby Boomers) got played to the exclusion of everyone else's for far too long. We don't need to bury the term with us.

It's been 8 years since the format changed names. More like a decade since stations stopped using it as an identifier. If today's audience wants to call "She Bop" or "Smooth" an oldie, not only are they right, but it's a golden opportunity for radio to ditch the clunky terminology of "Classic Hits" and get in sync with their listeners.

The 1955-1980 music? That's oldies too. But the majority of it has simply aged out of usefulness for airplay.

 

[landtuna]

Radio genre terms for formats and street terminology should match as closely as possible. It allows the station to say "We are (blank)" and have the audience say "Yeah, that's exactly right."

If you asked random people on the street what constitutes the Oldies era what do you think they would say? I'm thinking they would probably point to KOOL and say "those are oldies". Ten years from now, when KOOL has moved their playlist forward to 1980-2010, they will not be saying that. My oldest is 38 but neither he nor his younger siblings refer to their teen music as "oldies". Oldies are MY youth music. That's my point.

Webster's dictionary says the use of the term "oldie" dates back to 1874, and simply means a song from an earlier day. Every generation has their oldies. Mine (Baby Boomers) got played to the exclusion of everyone else's for far too long. We don't need to bury the term with us.

The difference between street term oldie and music genre oldie is what I was trying to get across earlier. Yes, a generic oldie is anything old but that term is useless to describe radio music playlists. Frank Sinatra is an oldie but he is not in the genre Oldie.

It's been 8 years since the format changed names. More like a decade since stations stopped using it as an identifier.

Not true. Many, many stations still refer to themselves as Oldies (even those that play songs outside the parameters). Oldies didn't change to anything, rather, some stations changed their genre name to Classic Hits so they could incorporate newer music into their playlists and not appear to be an old codger. Personally I think the CH designation is worthless and describes nothing but it is a name that has been accepted - apparently as a convenience to advertisers and their agencies. "Classic Hits" could as easily describe The Andrews Sisters or Dean Martin as it could Led Zeppelin or The Moody Blues.

If today's audience wants to call "She Bop" or "Smooth" an oldie, not only are they right, but it's a golden opportunity for radio to ditch the clunky terminology of "Classic Hits" and get in sync with their listeners.

Those of us who use the term Oldies know what it means. My kids wouldn't be caught dead saying it to each other because it is music from a generation that proceeded them and they don't consider themselves old fogeys quite yet. For that reason you won't hear them call either of your examples Oldies.

I'm not sure I understand what's "clunky" about the term Classic Hits and how it relates to the continued widening of the genre Oldies. If I asked a musical-informed person to give me an example of a classic hit they might say Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy", "Volare" or "Yesterday". Every one of those was a classic hit but only two fit the radio definition.

The 1955-1980 music? That's oldies too. But the majority of it has simply aged out of usefulness for airplay.

Now we're branching out into another type of discussion. The music known as Standards/Nostalgia/MOYL etc., has also aged out of economic usefulness to commercial radio but those labels are not being altered to make them into something they are/were not. The same should apply to Oldies. It was a period in time for a certain type of music. Calling something out of the decade of the 90's an oldie simply because it is 15 years old is incorrect.

 

[CTListener]

Oldies Era? Please! Why not just call it music from the '60s and '70s, which is all it was at the time we were listening to it for the first time, and what it is now when the new, younger listeners attracted by music from the '80s and '90s start listening to their local "classic hits" stations and run across older songs still in the mix -- like my barber is doing.

BTW, Sinatra's mid-'60s hits "Strangers in the Night" and "That's Life" and his '70s hit "New York, New York" are most certainly oldies if they're being played on a station that's playing other Hot 100 hit '60s and '70s music. Just because they also showed up on MOYL playlists doesn't change that fact. MOYL played the Beatles and Carpenters, too; does that mean "Yesterday" and "Close to You" aren't oldies?

 

[landtuna]

Oldies Era? Please! Why not just call it music from the '60s and '70s, which is all it was at the time we were listening to it for the first time, and what it is now when the new, younger listeners attracted by music from the '80s and '90s start listening to their local "classic hits" stations and run across older songs still in the mix -- like my barber is doing.

Actually, during the 60's and 70's we referred to the music as "Rock n Roll".

It always amazes me when my two youngest (early 20's) are able to recognize one of my "mouldy oldies" because they don't listen to radio very much and even then not to Oldies at all. Not sure where they are hearing it.

BTW, Sinatra's mid-'60s hits "Strangers in the Night" and "That's Life" and his '70s hit "New York, New York" are most certainly oldies if they're being played on a station that's playing other Hot 100 hit '60s and '70s music. Just because they also showed up on MOYL playlists doesn't change that fact.

Sinatra was big in some markets (Noo Yawk for instance) but not in others so your examples did get played on some T-40 stations but not on others. Since T-40 was a blend of Rock and Pop (basically whatever was charting) you could claim his music belongs to the Oldie genre but most purists would not agree since his styling was much more Easy Listening. A young Sinatra was a staple of MOYL since he had his start during that era.

MOYL played the Beatles and Carpenters, too; does that mean "Yesterday" and "Close to You" aren't oldies?

Of course not. A song could belong to multiple genres. Consider "A Summer Place". I've heard it on T-40, Oldies, Easy Listening and Beautiful Music.

 

[michael hagerty]

Radio genre terms for formats and street terminology should match as closely as possible. It allows the station to say "We are (blank)" and have the audience say "Yeah, that's exactly right."

If you asked random people on the street what constitutes the Oldies era what do you think they would say? I'm thinking they would probably point to KOOL and say "those are oldies". Ten years from now, when KOOL has moved their playlist forward to 1980-2010, they will not be saying that. My oldest is 38 but neither he nor his younger siblings refer to their teen music as "oldies". Oldies are MY youth music. That's my point.

Webster's dictionary says the use of the term "oldie" dates back to 1874, and simply means a song from an earlier day. Every generation has their oldies. Mine (Baby Boomers) got played to the exclusion of everyone else's for far too long. We don't need to bury the term with us.

The difference between street term oldie and music genre oldie is what I was trying to get across earlier. Yes, a generic oldie is anything old but that term is useless to describe radio music playlists. Frank Sinatra is an oldie but he is not in the genre Oldie.

It's been 8 years since the format changed names. More like a decade since stations stopped using it as an identifier.

Not true. Many, many stations still refer to themselves as Oldies (even those that play songs outside the parameters). Oldies didn't change to anything, rather, some stations changed their genre name to Classic Hits so they could incorporate newer music into their playlists and not appear to be an old codger. Personally I think the CH designation is worthless and describes nothing but it is a name that has been accepted - apparently as a convenience to advertisers and their agencies. "Classic Hits" could as easily describe The Andrews Sisters or Dean Martin as it could Led Zeppelin or The Moody Blues.

If today's audience wants to call "She Bop" or "Smooth" an oldie, not only are they right, but it's a golden opportunity for radio to ditch the clunky terminology of "Classic Hits" and get in sync with their listeners.

Those of us who use the term Oldies know what it means. My kids wouldn't be caught dead saying it to each other because it is music from a generation that proceeded them and they don't consider themselves old fogeys quite yet. For that reason you won't hear them call either of your examples Oldies.

I'm not sure I understand what's "clunky" about the term Classic Hits and how it relates to the continued widening of the genre Oldies. If I asked a musical-informed person to give me an example of a classic hit they might say Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy", "Volare" or "Yesterday". Every one of those was a classic hit but only two fit the radio definition.

The 1955-1980 music? That's oldies too. But the majority of it has simply aged out of usefulness for airplay.

Now we're branching out into another type of discussion. The music known as Standards/Nostalgia/MOYL etc., has also aged out of economic usefulness to commercial radio but those labels are not being altered to make them into something they are/were not. The same should apply to Oldies. It was a period in time for a certain type of music. Calling something out of the decade of the 90's an oldie simply because it is 15 years old is incorrect.

We're way far apart on this one.

To me, "oldies era" is an artificial construct that has outlived its usefulness. It's damming up the river and creating stagnation. It's like saying "history" stops at a certain fixed point and everything from there till now gets lumped into an ever-growing category of "current events" (or maybe "recurrent events" for the format clock freaks).

Frankly, it's part of what damn near killed Oldies as a format.

"Oldie" as applied to music is a term that has been in use for 139 years. To now say that only music from 1955-1980 should have that term applied to it is hijacking the language, dooming the word to extinction as the music fades from mass exposure and those of us who were its fans at the time die.

Except...it ain't gonna happen that way. The average listener (especially those under 50) cares very little about the concept of an "oldies era". They simply refer to records in terms of their experience. If you were born in 1968, don't give a damn about Elvis, The Beach Boys or The Beatles, but dug "She Bop" when you were 15, that's an oldie to you. And if you call it that, I have zero right to say you're using the wrong word to describe your experience because the cutoff was three years earlier.

It's time to get back in sync with how real people...adults who happen to have been born outside the scope of our teen and adult years, think, speak, experience and use the medium.

 

[Thomps2525]

Michael, do you have any idea how many stations even use the word "Oldies" anymore? I'm thinking there are probably a few such stations on AM but haven't all the FM oldies stations evolved into "classic hits"? And don't get me started on the definition of "classic"!

In 1972, KHJ-FM in Los Angeles became KRTH and switched to an oldies format. The playlist covered 1954 through 1963. The oldest songs (Gee, Sh-Boom, Mr. Sandman, Rock Around The Clock) were only 18 years old. If oldies stations in 2013 adhered to that concept, the oldest songs we'd be hearing would include Boombastic, Freak Like Me, This Is How We Do It and Gangsta's Paradise. Yikes! I wouldn't call those songs "oldies" or "classic hits"!

 

[davideduardo]

Not true. Many, many stations still refer to themselves as Oldies (even those that play songs outside the parameters). Oldies didn't change to anything, rather, some stations changed their genre name to Classic Hits so they could incorporate newer music into their playlists and not appear to be an old codger. Personally I think the CH designation is worthless and describes nothing but it is a name that has been accepted - apparently as a convenience to advertisers and their agencies.

Exactly. "Classic Hits" is an industry term, used to differentiate 60's based "oldies" formats from 70's based formats.

Just as few stations call themselves CHR (Or "contemporary hits radio") on the air, "Classic Hits" is not a particularly good on-air term. "Oldies" is much better as far as a positioner for listeners... whether a station plays 60's or 70's or even 70's and 80's together.

But for sales, "oldies" scares time buyers. They know the difference, and don't want to have their work questioned by buying an out of demo station.

Another example of an industry term seldom used on the air: Regional Mexican... the term that describes half the US Spanish language station. But on air, and to listeners, the term is meaningless or awkward. But to agencies, it defines the type of station quite well.

The same should apply to Oldies. It was a period in time for a certain type of music. Calling something out of the decade of the 90's an oldie simply because it is 15 years old is incorrect.

To a listener, an oldie is simply a big song from the past. Since each person's frame of reference for "past" is different, the term means different things to different people.

 

[michael hagerty]

Michael, do you have any idea how many stations even use the word "Oldies" anymore? I'm thinking there are probably a few such stations on AM but haven't all the FM oldies stations evolved into "classic hits"? And don't get me started on the definition of "classic"!

In 1972, KHJ-FM in Los Angeles became KRTH and switched to an oldies format. The playlist covered 1954 through 1963. The oldest songs (Gee, Sh-Boom, Mr. Sandman, Rock Around The Clock) were only 18 years old. If oldies stations in 2013 adhered to that concept, the oldest songs we'd be hearing would include Boombastic, Freak Like Me, This Is How We Do It and Gangsta's Paradise. Yikes! I wouldn't call those songs "oldies" or "classic hits"!

Steve, if you go back and read what I wrote a few posts back, I note that most programmers stopped using the term as an identifier 10 years ago and the majority of stations changed their format description about 8 years ago. As time passes, the term will have lost whatever meaning and/or stigma it may have had to younger (but aging) adults who weren't core listeners.

I have no idea how old you are, Steve, but I imagine the people who were the age you are now in 1972 felt the same way about the term "Oldie" or "Oldie But Goodie" being applied to the music KRTH debuted with.

David puts it best in the post above:


To a listener, an oldie is simply a big song from the past. Since each person's frame of reference for "past" is different, the term means different things to different people.

 

[Thomps2525]

I became a teenager in the 1960s and that is as much as I'm going to say about my age...but I can't see myself in the year 2030 referring to Thrift Shop, Harlem Shake and Suit & Tie as "oldies."

I agree with David that "regional Mexican" is a meaningless term. Exactly what "region" are we talking about? It could technically be anywhere!

 

[michael hagerty]

I became a teenager in the 1960s and that is as much as I'm going to say about my age...but I can't see myself in the year 2030 referring to Thrift Shop, Harlem Shake and Suit & Tie as "oldies."

Okay, well, let's make you as young as that allows and say you became a teenager in the last year of the 60s...1969...which would be 13 then, which makes us the same age...57.

Now, a 57-year old in 1972 was someone born in 1915. I'm betting they didn't consider "Hound Dog", "Summertime Blues" or "Alley Oop" oldies, either. But the 30-somethings listening to KRTH did. And that's all that mattered.

 

[Thomps2525]

Of course you're referring to Big Mama Thornton, Blue Cheer and Dante & the Evergreens. Oh...you're not? You're referring to Elvis Presley, Eddie Cochran and the Hollywood Argyles? Yeah, I guess KRTH never played those other versions. Remember in the mid-1980s when KRTH played oldies and a few current hits? I wonder if that format would work in 2013. It might...if the current songs were actually tuneful and had somewhat of an old-time sound to them. (Don't ask me for examples.)

 

[oldies76]

Of course you're referring to Big Mama Thornton, Blue Cheer and Dante & the Evergreens. Oh...you're not? You're referring to Elvis Presley, Eddie Cochran and the Hollywood Argyles? Yeah, I guess KRTH never played those other versions. Remember in the mid-1980s when KRTH played oldies and a few current hits? I wonder if that format would work in 2013. It might...if the current songs were actually tuneful and had somewhat of an old-time sound to them. (Don't ask me for examples.)

Gotye "Somebody That I Used To Know", Bruno Mars "Locked Out of Heaven"