Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[CTListener]

James Taylor was a soft-rock singer-songwriter, no more a folk artist than Carole King or Dan Fogelberg. "A more polished version of Dylan" best describes the mid-'60s Donovan.

 

[bigtom101]

Not sure what you would call Hippie Radio. They are not quite classic hits, but they are definitely not "oldies." They are sort of in-between. It is my understanding that there is also a Hippie Radio station in Chattanooga.

They are basically what oldies evolved into by 2004/5..."Greatest Hits Of The 60's & 70's." 64 to 79 playlist, still heavy on the 60's with a core from 65 to 74.

I remember when the format first launched - it's aimed at boomers who want to hear, but without the stigma of the "O" word.

The website boasts the station is geared towards high TSL rather than cume...which is not exactly a winning strategy.

http://hippieradio.net/format%20info.asp

 

[michael hagerty]

From "Annie's Song" for about a year, Denver's singles were Top 10 on the Country chart. Three went to #1. The streak was broken, ironically, by his duet with another artist who had Country chart success, Olivia Newton-John. "Fly Away" was #12 Country.

We've already established that a song appearing on Billboard in one genre doesn't necessarily mean the song belonged to that genre. "Annie's Song" is not Country although he did make several pure Country records. I would have called Denver a Folk artist more than anything else.

And ONJ was also not a Country artist but rather Pop.

Anne Murray was successful on the Country charts from the beginning of her career. If Top 40 had decided to take more of a rock edge and defend against AOR, Anne and John's airplay would have been limited to Country and AC.

Back in those days I would have classified ONJ, Denver and Murray as MOR. Definitely not Country. Perhaps AC as we know it now.

How would you classify early 70s James Taylor if not as "soft rock"?

Folk. He was a very polished version of Dylan.

As for Disco, very few Top 40 stations were able to resist it. As Guy's chart shows, it fell in the shortest part of the cycle and was over in two years. The stations that didn't buy in we're belatedly protecting their flanks against AOR, which was peaking, but which had already eaten their lunch 2-6 years before, depending on the market.

I moved to Phoenix in '79 and remember Disco being huge in the nightclubs but not necessarily on T-40 radio. They may have played some Disco from acts like the BeeGee's who were then known more for their pop hits. There was at least one station in the metro area that staged "down with Disco" events.

Disco disenchantment hit different cities at different times. '79 was past the peak nationally, which was '78, but in Los Angeles in the Fall 1979 Arbitron, KIIS-FM and KUTE-FM, both all-disco, pulled a combined 5.4 share. KTNQ had already gone Spanish, but KHJ and KFI couldn't afford to ignore mainstream disco hits.

In San Francisco, it was totally different. KFRC leaned AOR both in its presentation and it's music in 1979, outright ignoring Top 5 records because they were disco. PD Les Garland didn't want the station to die when the music did. Smart move, but he took a lot of heat from with the industry. Especially from disco-heavy Casablanca Records, which took out a full-page ad in Radio & Records that read:

WE LOVE YOU LES

and less

and less

and less

Garland's approach...don't play it, but don't talk about how it sucks, either, kept the station from looking like Neanderthals and left the door open for his successor, Gerry Cagle, to take KFRC heavily rhythmic in 1981-83.

 

[michael hagerty]

James Taylor was a soft-rock singer-songwriter, no more a folk artist than Carole King or Dan Fogelberg. "A more polished version of Dylan" best describes the mid-'60s Donovan.

And "folk" as a label had been dead for a while. Dylan, Baez, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Judy Collins had all recast themselves as singer-songwriter.

 

[RIN3GUY]

And, while many consider "Funkytown" the last disco song, consider how the character and mood was preserved in so many songs ranging from "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" to PSB's "Always on My Mind" and so many more.

Good point, David -- Disco did indeed decline, but its demise was a myth. Disco and quasi-disco hits continued to reach #1 every year throughout the '80s: Physical & We Got the Beat ('82), Flashdance, Billie Jean & Beat It ('83), Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go, Wham! ('85), How Will I Know & Banarama's Venus ('86), Bad ('87), So Emotional ('88) & Paula Abdul's two big hits in '89.

 

[michael hagerty]

And, while many consider "Funkytown" the last disco song, consider how the character and mood was preserved in so many songs ranging from "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" to PSB's "Always on My Mind" and so many more.

Disco did decline, but its demise was a myth. Disco and quasi-disco hits continued to reach #1 every year throughout the '80s: Physical & We Got the Beat ('82), Flashdance, Billie Jean & Beat It ('83), Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go, Wham! ('85), How Will I Know & Banarama's Venus ('86), Bad ('87), So Emotional ('88) & Paula Abdul's two big hits in '89.

Exactly. More accurate to say that its dominance took a nap, and there were still hits during that time. Rhythmic CHR was made possible by disco.

 

[landtuna]

Remember, in the 60's and 70's we often called Top 40 stations "rockers" while we called album rock stations "progressive" or "AOR".

Yesssssssss. I remember all those. AOR typically played the deeper cuts from the more popular chart-busters and what we would now call Alternative.

Disco was definitely a part of Top 40. Only in a few markets did we see KTU-like stations. In most, the CHRs played a lot of disco if the market was a rhythmic-oriented one, and disco was just a subset of the format... just look at the R&R CHR charts from that period.

The stations I listened to in that time period were still T-40 and they didn't play many disco songs at all. I have no idea what a "KTU-like station" is.

Disco had pretty much no Urban appeal. Just consider what the appeal of Village People might have been to the Urban / African American core.

Back then there was only one urban station here that I recall - KUKQ. I didn't listen to it so have no idea what it played. I do remember riding with one of my co-workers who was Black and he listened to a local station that focused on Disco. That was in '79.

And, while many consider "Funkytown" the last disco song, consider how the character and mood was preserved in so many songs ranging from "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" to PSB's "Always on My Mind" and so many more.

I would call "Funkytown" a Funk song (along with "Low Rider" and others). I never heard it played in clubs but sure heard Low Rider. The others you mention don't sound like Disco to me.

 

[bigtom101]

The stations I listened to in that time period were still T-40 and they didn't play many disco songs at all. I have no idea what a "KTU-like station" is.

Disco 92 KTU was a disco station that launched in NYC, and had great success at first: Per Wiki - "...with no notice, the station abruptly flipped to a disco-based rhythmic top 40 format with the tagline "Disco 92" at 6 p.m. July 24, 1978. That fall, the station rose from "Worst to First", unseating WABC in the 18-30 age demographic."

 

[michael hagerty]

The stations I listened to in that time period were still T-40 and they didn't play many disco songs at all. I have no idea what a "KTU-like station" is.

Disco 92 KTU was a disco station that launched in NYC, and had great success at first: Per Wiki - "...with no notice, the station abruptly flipped to a disco-based rhythmic top 40 format with the tagline "Disco 92" at 6 p.m. July 24, 1978. That fall, the station rose from "Worst to First", unseating WABC in the 18-30 age demographic."

And WABC knee-jerked bigtime, added a ton of disco, alienated their base and never recovered. Dead within 4 years. Exactly what Les Garland avoided at KFRC.

 

[landtuna]

And "folk" as a label had been dead for a while. Dylan, Baez, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Judy Collins had all recast themselves as singer-songwriter.

There are singer-songwriters in virtually every genre. That defines the musician, not the type of song. Folk is a distinct genre. There is no genre called "singer-songwriter".

 

[michael hagerty]

Landtuna's remarks on Anne Murray prompted me to look up her discography. A mixed bag of things too ponderous to dissect, but one item stunned me.

I always thought of "Shadows In The Moonlight" as being her step away from Country. Maybe it's the saxophone.

#25 on the Hot 100. Not surprising. In 1979, this was not going to be a big Top 40 record.

#1 AC. Absolutely.

But it was also #1 on the Country chart. Big surprise to me.

 

[CTListener]

The stations I listened to in that time period were still T-40 and they didn't play many disco songs at all. I have no idea what a "KTU-like station" is.

Disco 92 KTU was a disco station that launched in NYC, and had great success at first: Per Wiki - "...with no notice, the station abruptly flipped to a disco-based rhythmic top 40 format with the tagline "Disco 92" at 6 p.m. July 24, 1978. That fall, the station rose from "Worst to First", unseating WABC in the 18-30 age demographic."

The same thing happened in Boston. WBOS-FM went all-disco and had a one- or two-book surge in the ratings. It wouldn't last, as sleepy Beautiful Music station WWEL became WXKS (Kiss 108) and won the market over with a dynamic, polished presentation that, frankly, put WBOS to shame. Kiss also was smart enough to transition smoothly to rhythmic CHR and then straight CHR after the anti-disco backlash turned into the tidal wave that nearly obliterated the genre.

 

[bigtom101]

And WABC knee-jerked bigtime, added a ton of disco, alienated their base and never recovered. Dead within 4 years. Exactly what Les Garland avoided at KFRC.

Seeing as how I wasn't born until 1988...how did 99X have an effect on WABC throughout the 70's?

I always thought Jammin 105 (WTJM) was more of a descendant of them rather than 70's WABC....

 

[landtuna]

But it was also #1 on the Country chart. Big surprise to me.

Think about Anne's biggest record "Snowbird". The music sounds Country but the lyrics are not. But drop a steel guitar in there and it becomes Country.

Sometimes the differences are very subtle. I remember taking my wife out to a Reba concert at the old Sundome. About half way through the concert Reba introduced her band members (about half a dozen IIRC) and then said they were going to take one song (the name of which I don't remember) and do it in four genres: Country, Rock, Disco and something else. It was utterly amazing how different the song sounded yet it was exactly the same notes, same musicians and same instruments.

 

[semoochie]

I'm sorry I'm not more timely but occasionally have to go to work. It seems that to say that Classic Hits is not based on the time a song was a hit, is in direct violation of everything trumpeted on this site about all its predecessors! As popular as Frank Sinatra was, his music is no longer heard on radio because there's little connection to a currently saleable audience. There's no Beautiful Music for the same reason. Nine years ago, Oldies lost the first half of the era played and was replaced by what is now Classic Hits, presumably because the upper end was too old but why is that different from now? If anything, you'd think that the "rock era" would all fall under one category, if we are stating that listening is now suddenly based on mood and not era. I'm not suggesting throwing in a lot of 50s titles at this late date but hitherto, everything has been about the finite line of 55 and how that line is directly related to the age of the music. Can I now expect to hear the Beatles and Stones for another 40 years? If so, it makes you feel kind of bad for Elvis. By the way, I didn't think people would be "dragged" from their Katy Perry fix. I was just making a comparison in a colorful way.

 

[davideduardo]

I have no idea what a "KTU-like station" is.

WKTU was the "original" disco station, as another post explains.

I would call "Funkytown" a Funk song (along with "Low Rider" and others). I never heard it played in clubs but sure heard Low Rider.

Lipps, Inc was the consumate disco "formula group" and among the follow ups to Funkytown was a disco version of "Don't Cry for me Argentina". Funkytown, right from the opening keyboard riffs, is pure, unadulterated late 70's style disco.

The others you mention don't sound like Disco to me.

I did not say they were disco... they were rhythmic songs that followed in the aftermath of disco which were not "rockish" and were part of the dance / rhythmic progression that brought freestyle in the next decade and EDM now.

 

[michael hagerty]

And WABC knee-jerked bigtime, added a ton of disco, alienated their base and never recovered. Dead within 4 years. Exactly what Les Garland avoided at KFRC.

Seeing as how I wasn't born until 1988...how did 99X have an effect on WABC throughout the 70's?

I always thought Jammin 105 (WTJM) was more of a descendant of them rather than 70's WABC....

99X never quite made it. They paraded some serious PD talent through there (Jerry Clifton, Bobby Rich), but it never ignited. About the time people were saying contemporary hit music on FM woul never seriously challenge WABC, WKTU hit and the world was turned upside down.

 

[michael hagerty]

I'm sorry I'm not more timely but occasionally have to go to work. It seems that to say that Classic Hits is not based on the time a song was a hit, is in direct violation of everything trumpeted on this site about all its predecessors! As popular as Frank Sinatra was, his music is no longer heard on radio because there's little connection to a currently saleable audience. There's no Beautiful Music for the same reason. Nine years ago, Oldies lost the first half of the era played and was replaced by what is now Classic Hits, presumably because the upper end was too old but why is that different from now? If anything, you'd think that the "rock era" would all fall under one category, if we are stating that listening is now suddenly based on mood and not era. I'm not suggesting throwing in a lot of 50s titles at this late date but hitherto, everything has been about the finite line of 55 and how that line is directly related to the age of the music. Can I now expect to hear the Beatles and Stones for another 40 years? If so, it makes you feel kind of bad for Elvis. By the way, I didn't think people would be "dragged" from their Katy Perry fix. I was just making a comparison in a colorful way.

Good points. Here's the best answer I can give:

Oldies hit a wall. The early boomers (1946-1952) were the core, and they wanted the music they grew up with. The PMA range was songs from 1962-1974, with some songs from before that. But the cutoff ended up being more like 1970-72, because the perception of the demo was that the music wasn't as good after that.

Along come me and my buddies...the middle boomers (1953-1959). Now the format should be able to play catch-up and expand into the 70s. PMA range here is 1969-1981. But...turns out we're the group that really thought 70s music sucked. We're the ones who abandoned Top 40 for album rock back in the day, and if we wanted hit oldies, then we'll take the Beatles, Beach Boys, Stones and Motown, too.

The newest music in the format was at that point 9 years too old on paper. Next up, the late boom and first post-boom babies (1960-1966). PMA of 1976-1988. But Oldies wasn't playing any of that because two-thirds of the Baby Boom didn't want to hear it.

And so the format aged into disaster.

Something had to be done and it was Classic Hits. How far back it goes or how new it gets are market-dependent.

By now, the late boom/early post-boomers are past, at or pushing 50. But they can relate to most of the music Classic Hits plays now. And fortunately, people 5 years younger (the heart of the demo for sales purposes) like it on its own merit. The late boom/early post-boomers are about to age out, but the people who have taken their place are fans of this music, and PDs are moving into newer stuff slowly but surely. And, at some point, there'll be a crop of 45 year olds for whom the Stones don't test well. Then the Beatles. Then Santana.

Then the Eagles.

And Firepoint and Oldies are buying drinks for everybody on that day.

 

[michael hagerty]

I would call "Funkytown" a Funk song (along with "Low Rider" and others). I never heard it played in clubs but sure heard Low Rider.

I'm with David, "Funkytown" is disco. And while I can't really classify "Low Rider", I don't think that's funk, either.

Funk is Sly & The Family Stone's "Thank You (Falletin Me Be Mice Elf Agin)", Kool & The Gang's "Hollywood Swinging", Parliament's "Tear The Roof Off The Sucker", The Brothers Johnson's "I'll Be Good To You", LTD's "Back In Love Again", Rick James' "Give It To Me", Jermaine Jackson's "Let's Get Serious", O'Bryan's "Gigolo" and Cameo's "Word Up".

 

[semoochie]

Thank you, Michael. What irked me at the time was that not only did they pull everything pre-Beatles but a slew of mid-60s perennials as well. We lost the Four Seasons' big 60s hits in the shuffle,(replaced by "December 1963"), Gary Lewis & the Playboys and I don't know how many others. I was only 51 at the time. OK, if 45 is the core then there has to be a beginning. How does this relate to a 35 year old, who grew up on Pop and Hip-hop? Actually, there's one other genre they grew up with and that's 50s and 60s Oldies so if you really want to grow the audience then maybe that's the way to go, coming full circle. Oh, one more thing: 70s music was not generally fun. The 60s were and so were the early 80s but the 70s were mostly serious productions of Rock's new found direction. Did I mention that I love Katy Perry?