Classic Rock: Evolve or Die!

[vchimpanzee]

At the time, we asked him why they had to clutter the Top 40 with so many non-rock songs, like "Candyman" by Sammy Davis, Jr., or "The Men in My Little Girl's Life" by Mike Douglas, or "It Must be Him" by Vickie Carr.

I like those. The radio station I listen to most plays two ot the three but I think I used to hear the third on another station.

None of them would play both Vickie Carr or Sammy Davis, Jr. in the same half hour as Steppenwolf or Led Zeppelin.

I wouldn't want to hear them. Robert Plant and the Honeydrippers or with Alison Krauss, that's something different entirely.

 

[TheBigA]

I understand that "Country" nearly died completely around 1959, when there were something like six stations programming it.

Technically it didn't exist as a format at that time. In fact format radio as we know it really didn't exist in 1959. The voice of the Grand Ole Opry, WSM, wasn't a country station until the 1970s. It was primarily a "middle of the road" station, that played popular standards during the day, and current country releases at night. There may have been six stations that considered themselves "country" in 1959, mostly in the south.

 

[b-turner]

That is true. The stations back then, even void of a network affiliation, playing music, typically did block programming. You simply had several shows daily that featured certain types of music if you were a music station. In fact, block programming prevailed for many more years at small market stations.

In fact, at my first job, we were country 6 to 9 in the morning, oldies during the day and top 40 at night and weekend afternoons except Sundays when Gospel music was aired in the morning and orchestrated instrumentals on Sunday evening ending in a 2 hour classical block before sign off. That was 1978. In a few months, however, we were Top 40 dayparted severely.

 

[semoochie]

Technically it didn't exist as a format at that time. In fact format radio as we know it really didn't exist in 1959. The voice of the Grand Ole Opry, WSM, wasn't a country station until the 1970s. It was primarily a "middle of the road" station, that played popular standards during the day, and current country releases at night. There may have been six stations that considered themselves "country" in 1959, mostly in the south.

I know that you know what you mean but I have no idea! Top 40 was invented in 1952. How could it not have been a format by 1959 or for that matter, MOR, Classical etc.?

 

[semoochie]

You asked about top 40 radio playing Sammy Davis Jr's "Candyman?"

In 1969?

"Candyman" was written for the 1971 movie "Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory." Sammy recorded it for his 1972 album "Sammy Davis Jr. Now." The song reached number one on June 10, 1972.

Or are you a prophet too?

Now, this is interesting. I have a distinct recollection of hearing that song on KPFM, when they were still MOR, before they switched to Top 40, in March 1969. I remember the announcer playing the song, saying it was the #1 song in the country and me thinking that he meant #1 on the adult charts but somehow, I found out it was actually the #1 song, period. The only explanation is that I have it confused with another #1 adult song from 1968 or 69.

 

[b-turner]

All of this is so confusing. Yes, Todd Storz started top 40 in 1952 and some say Gordon McClendon did, depending on who you choose to believe. Even the dates are argued since none of this was originally that well documented and so many today were not around at the time. At best, I think both of these guys might not have realized what they started.

Stations back then, even when they might have a format they used several hours a day, still block programmed. As I understand it Storz did that for the first few years. I suppose the best way to explain this would be that Storz might have played only the biggest selling songs but it wasn't the same songs all day long. In other words the most popular songs for various age groups might be featured at targeted times of the day.

To give you a bit of an example, it might be the MOR hits in morning drive, hits the housewife would want in during the day, maybe country in the afternoon and then a time for the youth. At night it might be popular orchestrated songs and then a classical block. I know KOWH was a daytimer and cannot truly document their specific schedule. Maybe Richard Ward Fatherly published that (I listened to him on WHB growing up, by the way). From what I can gather, there was not a bunch of overlap on songs.

It really wasn't to about 1959 or 1960 that stations figured out they could stick with one group of radio listeners around the clock. KOWH might have been an exception. Certainly there must have been several. I for one would love to know that answer myself. I suppose this was because there were so few radio choices then. A city like Nashviille or Omaha might have had 5 or 6 stations on the air at that time. Network radio would have still be around through the 1950s, perhaps not as a fulltime format but in certain dayparts for sure. TV may have taken radio's programming but TVs were really expensive then so not everyone had one, so radio filled that void.

On a related subject, I met a guy around 1980 that bought an AM station and had a philosophy that the songs people loved they could never burn out on. In my mind he was wrong so I watched like a hawk to see if he'd change his mind. In short he played 5 different 'styles' of music. Each music type had 60 titles. Every song was played virtually every day in the same time frame (ie: Country Classics, Beautiful Music, Oldies and I don't recall the others). He did some 'special' music styles on weekends like Bluegrass, Southern Gospel and familiar classical tracks. Although his were timeless classics, handpicked, he felt playing the songs every day was okay. I cannot say he was wrong. Sales were good and he did this for years and rarely changed out any music...maybe 1/3rd over several years. I have to admit every song was the cream of the crop in each style. As I recall he was keen on selling $1 ten second spots and really pushed for at least 5 spots a day, one in each music type featured and typically had three spots between each song...not bad for small town radio.

 

[semoochie]

There's a difference between block programming and dayparting. I don't doubt that you may have been more likely to hear "Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte" between 10AM and 3PM than 7-midnight. The funny thing though is when I was sick and home listening, I don't remember it being all that much different from other times. It certainly felt the same in the summer.

 

[davideduardo]

All of this is so confusing. Yes, Todd Storz started top 40 in 1952 and some say Gordon McClendon did, depending on who you choose to believe. Even the dates are argued since none of this was originally that well documented and so many today were not around at the time.

Actually, KOWH and its change to Top 40 in 1952 is quite well documented. Todd Storz started running ads in the trades immediately after the station "took" Omaha. There were quite a few articles in the trades, and it's quite well documented that McLendon hired Stewart away from Storz to go to Dallas and work the same magic.

Stations back then, even when they might have a format they used several hours a day, still block programmed. As I understand it Storz did that for the first few years. I suppose the best way to explain this would be that Storz might have played only the biggest selling songs but it wasn't the same songs all day long. In other words the most popular songs for various age groups might be featured at targeted times of the day.

KOWH was a daytimer with 500 watts on 660. It did not call itself "Top 40" as that term apparently did originate until several years later, apparently at Storz' WTIX in New Orleans. But they did play only the top songs, over and over all day.

To give you a bit of an example, it might be the MOR hits in morning drive, hits the housewife would want in during the day, maybe country in the afternoon and then a time for the youth. At night it might be popular orchestrated songs and then a classical block. I know KOWH was a daytimer and cannot truly document their specific schedule. Maybe Richard Ward Fatherly published that (I listened to him on WHB growing up, by the way). From what I can gather, there was not a bunch of overlap on songs.

KOWH was definitely not block programmed. This is detailed in Fatherly's recent book, which is available on Amazon. It's also the story that Storz told me just months before his death when he gave me an impromptu class in Top 40 in his office at WQAM in 1964.

Keep in mind that KOWH's Top 40 format was based on Doris Day and Gogi Grant because it would be several years before Rock Around the Clock and rock n' roll.

McLendon's all music approach was similar, and well detailed in Garay's biography.

It really wasn't to about 1959 or 1960 that stations figured out they could stick with one group of radio listeners around the clock.

I was a radio geek and grew up down the block from the manager of WERE in Cleveland. That station became Top 40 somewhere around 1955 and the only block programming they had was the Holy Rosary at 6 PM every afternoon. I listened to the DJs like Bill Randall and Joe Finan. By 1958, Cleveland had two full Top 40's (WERE and WHK) and a quasi-Top 40 in WKYC/KYW all going strong.

Interestingly, Cleveland DJ Alan Freed who was on WJW until around 1955 went to New York to kick off WINS's Top 40 format in late 55 or early '56. Around that time, WMGM also went Top 40, making two 50 kw stations in the format very early on; WMCA became the third Top 40 in 1958.

KOWH might have been an exception. Certainly there must have been several.

If you look at the ads in Broadcasting in Sponsor and Broadcasting from the mid-50's you can see that the big changes came between '55 and '57. And when those stations changed, they did it for the most part throughout the day. There were some notable exceptions, like the ABC stations such as WABC and WLS that were late-comers (60's) and kept some network programs for several years.

 

[davideduardo]

There's a difference between block programming and dayparting. I don't doubt that you may have been more likely to hear "Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte" between 10AM and 3PM than 7-midnight. The funny thing though is when I was sick and home listening, I don't remember it being all that much different from other times. It certainly felt the same in the summer.

That's a very good point.

There are quite a few sites that show station charts going back into the 50's and we can see that the earlier Top 40's back in the late 50's were still playing lots of throwbacks to the pre-rock n' roll era along with Danny & The Juniors, Frankie Ford and Paul Anka. They stressed music for moms in the daytime and went for the kids in the afternoon and evening.

There is a KOBY San Francisco survey from 1957 that shows how the blend included the Liechtensteiner Polka and Little Richard!

http://bayarearadio.org/koby/surveys/

 

[JRH]

I know that you know what you mean but I have no idea! Top 40 was invented in 1952. How could it not have been a format by 1959 or for that matter, MOR, Classical etc.?

There were formats, but many stations didn't run formats as such.

In the 60s where I grew up, Cedar Rapids IA, there were four AM stations... MOR/news/farm, top 40, MOR that folded a couple of times before switching to country in about 1967, and one that was block programmed... MOR days, top 40 nights, country all weekend. This station did drop all that and go "chicken rock" in 1968, then top 40 in 1970. (A 4-hour Sunday morning polka program continued with the top 40 format and other formats that followed over the years!)

Another station that boomed in from Waterloo was MOR, but country PM drive with a polka half-hour before noon. It went all country in about 1971.

In markets with fewer stations, there were even more block-programmed stations.

Sometimes stations tried one format, but it didn't quite work out. In the early 60s 1150/KWKY in Des Moines went country. Apparently that wasn't enough to pay the bills, because it was soon pay-for-play preachers all morning drive and much of Sunday, with a three-hour swap shop program evenings, and the Texaco Opera Saturday afternoon. This hodge podge was in place in 1974 when 1460/KSO went all country. KSO was quite successful, KWKY tanked and went all-religious.

 

[TheBigA]

I know that you know what you mean but I have no idea! Top 40 was invented in 1952. How could it not have been a format by 1959 or for that matter, MOR, Classical etc.?

Others have addressed the other formats. With regards to country, it was a fringe regional music in the 50s, and it biggest stars got airplay in on other stations. Eddy Arnold, Webb Pierce, Buck Owens, Roger Miller, Johnny Cash all had pop hits until the late 60s. That's when country radio began to take off as its own format. Those artists got more exposure and more airplay before country was its own format than after. The fact that there were no national country music organizations to promote the music as a genre is an indication.

 

[b-turner]

David, thank you for the information about KOWH and the birth of Top 40 radio. Growing up I got to listen to both WHB and KLIF as we lived in both places while both stations were at their peak of popularity. I always contended Top 40 was less about format and more about the most popular songs at the moment. It seemed that musicians came forward that developed top 40 as more of a distinct format versus a hodge podge of the biggest hits at that moment. The variety was so significant in the 1960s, for example. You could hear Sinatra and Hendrix and everything in between with typically very entertaining DJs in the late 1960s.

 

[davideduardo]

David, thank you for the information about KOWH and the birth of Top 40 radio. Growing up I got to listen to both WHB and KLIF as we lived in both places while both stations were at their peak of popularity. I always contended Top 40 was less about format and more about the most popular songs at the moment. It seemed that musicians came forward that developed top 40 as more of a distinct format versus a hodge podge of the biggest hits at that moment. The variety was so significant in the 1960s, for example. You could hear Sinatra and Hendrix and everything in between with typically very entertaining DJs in the late 1960s.

One of the things that Storz believed in was moving away from the block program model, which had served radio in the pre-TV era but which had been pre-empted by the new medium. Storz saw TV coming, and it was no coincidence that his move at KOWH was in part a reaction to the prospects of the lifting of the TV freeze "soon".

When I met with him I was on my way to Ecuador where I would build South America's first Top 40 station. I had a long layover in Miami, and visited WQAM where the manager, intrigued by an 18-year-old with a radio station, introduced me to Mr. Storz who was visiting the station. Storz took several hours to instruct me in how to do the format right. A key element was not breaking the format ever and doing everything that was not music as briefly as possible so that the promise of music was always perceived to be immediate.

I think some just imitated the success of the Storz stations. Others became true believers and enhanced the format in their own way, such as Chuck Blore's creation of KFWB.

As I think back, I do not believe that playing "rock n' roll" was a concern to him. I believe he always referred to "the hits" in reference to the music, not to the genre. In other words, if it was a big song, you played it.

 

[CTListener]

One of the things that Storz believed in was moving away from the block program model, which had served radio in the pre-TV era but which had been pre-empted by the new medium. Storz saw TV coming, and it was no coincidence that his move at KOWH was in part a reaction to the prospects of the lifting of the TV freeze "soon".

When I met with him I was on my way to Ecuador where I would build South America's first Top 40 station. I had a long layover in Miami, and visited WQAM where the manager, intrigued by an 18-year-old with a radio station, introduced me to Mr. Storz who was visiting the station. Storz took several hours to instruct me in how to do the format right. A key element was not breaking the format ever and doing everything that was not music as briefly as possible so that the promise of music was always perceived to be immediate.

I think some just imitated the success of the Storz stations. Others became true believers and enhanced the format in their own way, such as Chuck Blore's creation of KFWB.

As I think back, I do not believe that playing "rock n' roll" was a concern to him. I believe he always referred to "the hits" in reference to the music, not to the genre. In other words, if it was a big song, you played it.

How did you decide what was a "big song" before you added it to the playlist? Wait for other stations in smaller markets to play it? Don't think that was possible in Ecuador! Play snippets for focus groups every week and decide what you want to add by tallying the positive responses? Add only follow-ups by established artists right out of the box? But then, you would always be late on the "next big thing." Or ... did palms get greased in those early days of Top 40 (payola) and the labels pretty much decided what was going to be a "big song" for you?

 

[davideduardo]

How did you decide what was a "big song" before you added it to the playlist? Wait for other stations in smaller markets to play it? Don't think that was possible in Ecuador! Play snippets for focus groups every week and decide what you want to add by tallying the positive responses? Add only follow-ups by established artists right out of the box? But then, you would always be late on the "next big thing." Or ... did palms get greased in those early days of Top 40 (payola) and the labels pretty much decided what was going to be a "big song" for you?

There was somewhat of a vicious circle there until we got accurate data about our own listeners via callout in the 70's.

Initial adds were made, in the earliest days of Top 40, by intuition / skill / best guess. Stations that were the only Top 40 added songs "out of the box" with little validation. There was always Billboard and by '58 we had the Gavin Report to check on songs that were moving nationally.

Once we played songs, the checks were sales, jukebox plays and requests. And if a song was not getting momentum, we dropped it.

In my case in Ecuador, we had almost zero record production, no jukeboxes and no tip sheets. So we went by requests and our "High School Panel" which came in and got some little prizes in exchange for voting on the songs that we played the most.

The 50's was also the era of, if you believe the books and articles, considerable influence by record companies in the big markets. But by the time the scandals broke in 1959, most top 40's had strict playlists so the deciding factor was the PD and the MD.

 

[boombox4]

So, after reading through most of this thread, it seems the conclusion is that classic rock needs to add more grunge and 90's / 00's rock music or it will die off just as oldies music pretty much died off, and classic hits seems to be on the verge of dying off (although much more slowly) -- and smooth jazz and AAA died off (or are in the process of dying off).

As a fan of a lot of the harder rock music from the 1990's / 2000's era, the idea of Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit being played on a classic rock station isn't all that bad.

I mean, the fact most "classic rock" (1960's, 1970's, 1980's AOR music, basically) is considered 'classic' music doesn't mean it belongs on the radio, any more than Motown or the Beatles oldies belong on the radio. Radio is a business, and they are chasing those money demos.

I keep seeing that re-emphasised in nearly every thread on these sorts of subjects. I'm not complaining, no point in complaining about reality.

Glad that's all settled then.

 

[TheBigA]

So, after reading through most of this thread, it seems the conclusion is that classic rock needs to add more grunge and 90's / 00's rock music or it will die off just as oldies music pretty much died off,

Except that that music is already being played in other formats. So in my opinion, it's too late to add more current music. It is what it is. You can't keep a horse alive longer by turning it into a mule.

 

[John Gallagher]

And, the new songs by Bryan Adams and Bob Seger are being played on A/C, not Classic Rock. Wonder when a station will call the format Dinosaur Rock instead of Classic Rock?

 

[Avid Listener]

And, the new songs by Bryan Adams and Bob Seger are being played on A/C, not Classic Rock. Wonder when a station will call the format Dinosaur Rock instead of Classic Rock?

Probably long before any station says, "To hell with format labels, we're just going to play good music".

 

[davideduardo]

Except that that music is already being played in other formats. So in my opinion, it's too late to add more current music. It is what it is. You can't keep a horse alive longer by turning it into a mule.

LA Radio Rewind writes on LARadio.com:

"February 6, 1987. With no warning, KMET program director Frank Cody fires the entire airstaff. The station would run jockless until February 14 and then switch to New Age music as KTWV, The WAVE, with KMET listeners calling the format change “The Valentine’s Day Massacre.” KMET had aired an album rock format since 1967. Over the years the airstaff included Jim Ladd, Jeff Gonzer, Frazer Smith, Mary Turner, Dr. Demento, Ace Young, Paraquat Kelly, Tom Donahue and B. Mitchel Reed. In the fall 1986 Arbitron ratings, KMET was 20th with a 1.6% audience share. Cody acknowledged that “when the best that album-rock radio can do in this market is repackage its old hits in a classic rock format, then album rock is history.”

That was almost 3 decades ago. One of the most innovative of programmers, Frank Cody, saw no future in "album-rock" despite his personal attachment to the music and the format. He correctly predicted that there was going to be no new music that fit, and, despite many stations having tried mixing newer product or doing deeper libraries, all failed.