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Clear Channel has destroyed L.A. radio

Re: KIIS

> I totally understand what is being said here, but there's
> something being completely overlooked... and that is that
> you can't have accurate call-out numbers if your station
> isn't playing a song...

No, I'm afraid you misunderstand how call-out works.

Call-out research only plays a brief piece of a song (usually the hook portion) to a respondent. It is perfectly normal for a station to do call-out research not only on the songs currently on the playlist but also for new songs by artists the station has in recurrent rotation.

Not being involved at Clear Channel's operation, I can only guess that the Nickelback song was included in call-out but didn't test well enough to be added. (Despite your rhetorical assumption: "Would it's test scores be any different? I doubt it.")<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Re: U guys R high

> Considering Clear Channel has NO CLUE about the L.A. market
> and what works and what doesn't work I think you BOTH are
> way off base here.

Okay, Mr. Newbie-with-friends-who-work-at-stations-outside-the-market, I've had about enough already.

It is <u>you</u> who are off base, coming in here and bombarding us with lots of know-it-all posts. If Clear Channel "has no clue" about this market, tell me why they are doing so well in billing. You need to know what you are talking about before you post here, or you will be ripped to shreds by the regulars.

I leave you wide open to criticism from here on out, and will not step in as moderator to defend you against attack (unless the attacks get personal).

As the preacher said in "Blazing Saddles" after his Bible got shot to pieces: "Son, you're on your own."<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
>
> Once again, your PERCEPTION of what people want to hear
> versus the REALITY of what they want to hear are two
> different things.

In my case, this is not a perception. My comments are based on tens of thousands of interviews with listeners, on an ongoing basis about perceptions, habits and songs.

> Unfortunately, a lot of those in the
> industry share this false perception.

We do not get our perceptions, especially in a market like LA, from anywhere else but the listeners themselves. We find out what our specific target or targets want and deliver it.

> Most regular
> listeners DON'T like to hear the same songs over and over...

Actually, they do. I have asked about favorite songs and how often listeners wish to hear them. Uniformly, they say, "oh, about every hour."

> We have a piped in AC/Hot AC music mix at the office... and
> plenty of people there complain about hearing the same songs
> over and over.

Repetiton is a perception caused by th eplaying of bad songs. If you play the good ones in proprtion to thier appeal, you will have no perception of repetition.

> You go to some of the local music boards
> and it's the same thing... KZLA... they play the same songs
> over and over (even though nothing gets more than 6 spins a
> day there)...

One place I do not go for research of the market is music boards. I tlak to real listenrs who use the station normally.

> People complain about KIIS all of the time..
> giving songs 90-105 spins a week is plain dumb.

It has been #1 twice in the last three books because they play the hits, which is what a CHR does. Remeber, the stations with the 30 shares in the 60-s played 40 songs. Over and over and over.

> The only
> ones that care to hear songs that much are that all
> important 6-17 demo.

Wrong. Nearly all listeners want to hear good songs that that they love often.
>
> People have other options for music now and are tuning out
> in droves due to the LACK of variety available to them
> despite all of the stations out here...

Untrue. False. No statistics to support this.

> Another fallacy is that people will tune out if they hear
> something "unfamiliar".

Just try doing real time measurement of like and dislike, and watch the unfamiliar songs. They tank. every time.

> KOST got A TON of requests last
> year when they added Anna Nalick's "Breathe" and Rob Thomas'
> "Lonely No More"... If you spike a song, people are going
> to call if they like it and they are going to call if they
> don't like it...

The telephone is not a ratings device, and does not serve any purpose when used to measure incoming calls.

> common sense dictates they will play the
> song more if people like it and less or not at all if they
> don't.

LA PDs, most among the best in the business, know what will generally work and not. KIIS tanked when they brought in a Boston PD who made the station too east Coast and white. They went rhythic and look enormously good.

> It appears to me that many in the industry have a NARROW
> view of things... people really need to open their eyes and
> realize that people don't get all of their songs from the
> radio any more and as long as it continues down this road,
> radio will be listened to by fewer and fewer people as time
> goes on.

we have realized this for decades, which is why we do call out and all kinds of other research so the listener can tell us, in a valid sample, what they want. And what they don't want.
>
 
Re: KIIS

> Call-out research only plays a brief piece of a song
> (usually the hook portion) to a respondent. It is perfectly
> normal for a station to do call-out research not only on the
> songs currently on the playlist but also for new songs by
> artists the station has in recurrent rotation.

That's one reason why callout is virtually useless when it comes to new songs -- that is, songs that aren't being played in the market yet. (Sometimes you get lucky and a song used in a commercial or TV show is getting some buzz.)

But brand new songs? Even by recognized artists? You're just never going to get a useful read from callout.

The PD has to make a gut decision, play the damn thing for a couple of weeks, and THEN get useful callout info on it.
 
Re: KIIS

> That's one reason why callout is virtually useless when it
> comes to new songs -- that is, songs that aren't being
> played in the market yet. (Sometimes you get lucky and a
> song used in a commercial or TV show is getting some buzz.)

The general "rule" is usually that a song needs to have had 100+ spins on your station to get anything valid on callout Otherwise, you are getting votes for the hook, not the song.
 
Re: U guys R high

> > As always, right on and well said. I second that emotion.
>
> >
> > It's always easy to piss & moan about the "conglomerates".
>
> > "The suits", "the consultants", etc. It's the same old
> and
> > tired droning on and on. If it sucks that bad, get an MP3
> > player or Satellite and stop whining about something you
> > can't control.
> >
> >
> > > And you would have like 11 listeners in LA, man.
> > >
> > > This is not Clear Channel's fault. This whole complaint
> of
> >
> > > your is essentially "why don't they play more white
> music
> > > for me" in a city that is decidedly ehtnic and rhythmic.
>
> > >
> > > If you want that kind of music, go to Minneapolis.
> > >
> >
>
> Considering Clear Channel has NO CLUE about the L.A. market
> and what works and what doesn't work I think you BOTH are
> way off base here.
>


WOW. Please site your qualifcations as a programmer to make this type of statement. Or is it you and a bunch of your college friends gettign together saying: "My iPod list is better than what is playing on the radio."

Your statements have proven that you do not know the market. Your suggestoins go across what seems to work for the market and more for what you FEEL is right. Feelings and actual FACTS are two totally different things.

Have a nice day.
 
> KBIG does Disco on KBIG2. What a joke. You think you have
> enough disco there??

I agree, they are overkilling the stuff. Personally I would like to see KBIG add some current Dance product if they're going to make their HD2 subchannel all Disco.
 
Re: KIIS

> > Call-out research only plays a brief piece of a song
> > (usually the hook portion) to a respondent. It is
> perfectly
> > normal for a station to do call-out research not only on
> the
> > songs currently on the playlist but also for new songs by
> > artists the station has in recurrent rotation.
>
> That's one reason why callout is virtually useless when it
> comes to new songs -- that is, songs that aren't being
> played in the market yet. (Sometimes you get lucky and a
> song used in a commercial or TV show is getting some buzz.)
>
> But brand new songs? Even by recognized artists? You're
> just never going to get a useful read from callout.
>
> The PD has to make a gut decision, play the damn thing for a
> couple of weeks, and THEN get useful callout info on it.

Right. I didn't say it clearly above. But my point is underscored by Archer's comments: You don't just add a song and then put it in high rotation without seeing whether or not it tests well.

But another point comes to mind in reading what Archer added. A good PD/MD will make that gut decision based on the trends that past callouts show. In the case of KIIS, the question of whether or not the Nickelback song was a valid add had to be influenced by what songs had tested well in the past. As David has pointed out, KIIS' listeners tend to like rhythmic songs better than rock songs. And I would bet the callout shows that preference clearly. So, that would cause Nickelback to be passed over, regardless of how high it charts nationally.

OTOH, Nickelback fits Star's audience profile rather well.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
Re: KIIS

> > > > > Well, you do bring up good points, but would it
> really
> >
> > > hurt
> > > > > to add some non urban hits? I don't think it would.
> > > >
> > > > Remember, CHRs test their songs frequently if not
> > > > constantly. If a song does not "test" after a certain
> > > number
> > > > of weeks or plays, it gets nuked. It is not a hit
> unless
> >
> > > the
> > > > station's listeners like it.
> > >
> > > David makes a good counterpoint here. The definition of
> a
> >
> > > "hit" has to be based upon more than national chart
> > status.
> > > If, as in Los Angeles, a CHR has to be heavy in Hispanic
>
> > > appeal, a song that appeals mainly to non-ethnic
> listeners
> >
> > > is not going to be a "hit" on that CHR even if it plays
> on
> >
> > > other CHRs in other markets and achieves top-ten chart
> > > status.
> > >
> > > Step back and look at this objectively instead of
> > > subjectively and I think you'll see what we are saying.
> > >
> >
> > I totally understand what is being said here, but there's
> > something being completely overlooked... and that is that
> > you can't have accurate call-out numbers if your station
> > isn't playing a song... KIIS plays Nickelback's "How You
> > Remind Me" all of the time, yet they don't play
> "Photograph"
> > which spent several weeks in the top 3 nationally. Why is
>
> > that? Was it any worse or better of a song? Would it's
> > test scores be any different? I doubt it. I have several
>
> > hispanic friends and relatives and they like all kinds of
> > music... a lot of them like oldies KRTH even and plenty of
>
> > them like rock edged stuff.
> >
> > The problem as I said earlier is that KIIS is VERY narrow
> at
> > the moment and they have become VERY ARTIST based and not
> > song based... they added the new Kelly Clarkson and Gwen
> > Stefani songs far before the add dates despite neither
> being
> > anywhere to as good as their previous hits... and now if
> you
> > notice, both are falling big time there even though they
> are
> > rising nationally... more than likely, low call out scores
>
> > are the culprit... if they had taken the time to listen to
>
> > these songs before they just blindly added them, then
> maybe
> > there would have been some room for the Nickelbacks,
> > Cascadas and James Blunts of the world... Also, why can't
> > they add a song like Natasha Bedingfield's "Unwritten"
> which
> > would fit in better with what they are playing then???
> It's
> > VERY obvious to me right now that the powers that be
> aren't
> > interested in testing songs with anyone not in that all
> > important 6-18 female demo... FYI, I am a member of their
> > listener advisory board.
> >
> > KIIS has always done best when it "plays all of the hits",
>
> > right now it's not and looking at the narrowing of their
> > playlist over that time, it's no wonder their Arbitrons
> are
> > trending down.
> >
>
>
>
> You have it 100% backwards, KIIS has always done WORST when
> they play "all of the hits". The worst KIIS ever did is
> shortly after their PD arrived from Boston. The station was
> way too whitebread for LA, they were jumping out of the box
> on acts like the Goo Goo Dolls and it was a total disaster.
>
> For someone who claims to pay attention to things, how could
> you be so unaware of the huge ratings improvement KIIS got
> when they shifted in a rhythmic direction. Even if they are
> currently down slightly from their recent peak, KIIS is
> still far higher rated today than they were when they played
> "all the hits".
>
> There is one thing I do agree with you on... Song Vs artist.
> On current based formats I think it's better to play a hot
> song from an artist no one ever heard of than a filler song
> follow up by a superstar artist.
>

KIIS has always done worst when programmed poorly, regardless of what "type" of music. If you recall, when that certain PD was brought in from Boston, KIIS was coming down ever-so-slightly from HUGE ratings that they had during the late 90's Pop boom (when Britney and Backstreet Boys were a MUST for any CHR station). They were QUITE whitebread and were doing incredibly well. The only reason their ratings really started to fall (it can be argued) was because there was a growing backlash against pop music. Boston boy then came in and tried to fix something that wasnt really broken (in terms of the structure of how things were being done). The music didn't become any more rhythmic initially. It was only after Steve Perun was brought in to consult that the music became more rhythmic (which is where the trends shifted after the pop boom). Then KIIS's ratings went back up... It's simple, play the right music and the audience won't go away.

It should also be noted that KIIS, while still heavily rhythmic, is playing slightly more pop than they were when Steve Perun was first brought back. I would guess that that's simply because the marketplace is moving back towards the pop (thanks to the Kellys and Gwens and Ashlees, etc).

A top 40 station should ALWAYS play all types of music as pretty much the format. It's the BALANCE of those types that makes or breaks a station.
 
Re: KIIS

> But another point comes to mind in reading what Archer
> added. A good PD/MD will make that gut decision based on
> the trends that past callouts show. In the case of KIIS,
> the question of whether or not the Nickelback song was a
> valid add had to be influenced by what songs had tested well
> in the past. As David has pointed out, KIIS' listeners tend
> to like rhythmic songs better than rock songs. And I would
> bet the callout shows that preference clearly. So, that
> would cause Nickelback to be passed over, regardless of how
> high it charts nationally.

There is another issue. Programmers try to balance their playlist to hold the overall sound or mix or blend of the stations. I can not think of how many times I have had too many ballados or too many fast songs or too many songs of one flavor to add all at one time, as doing that would swing the tempo or blend of the station. So soetimes a song is skipped, or it is waiited on until an older similarly flavored song drops or goes recurrent.

Research does not program a station. A PD does. And the PD looks at research as one tool, but the gut, the experience and the feel of the PD determines how to put it all together.
 
> Honestly, I don't know where to begin, but I've been
> listening to music in this market for over 24 years now, and
> it's my opinion that the L.A. area stations have NEVER
> sounded as boring and stale as they do now... Prime and
> center as the main culprit has to be the megaconglomerate,
> Clear Channel... they own 5 contemporary music stations, 4
> of which I used to listen to quite a bit (KIIS, KYSR, KBIG
> and KOST).

I don't know if you just ran out of time or space, but
shouldn't your post be "I Don't Like Three LA Radio
Stations"?

Yes, they're all owned by Clear Channel, but there are
dozens of other radio stations in LA not owned by Clear
Channel that you haven't mentioned. Is it that Clear
Channel owns the best rated stations and you don't
listen to stations owned by other corporations? Or
maybe you're moving out of the demographic for Kiss,
KYSR and KBIG... and that's why you don't object to
KOST as much?

Maybe Clear Channel is wrong in programming all these
stations with few songs or artists crossing over. In
NYC, Lite-FM plays plenty of classic dance hits, even
though Clear Channel owns both Lite and Dance WKTU.
And certainly WKTU and Z100, both Clear Channel stations,
share plenty of titles and artists. I wonder why LA
is different than NYC.

Actually you should be grateful for Kiss. In most
West and Southwest markets with large Hispanic populations,
there are no Top 40 stations even trying to be somewhat
mainstream. I suppose it's market forces that are
moving Kiss to be more rhythmic or urban.




Gregg
[email protected]
 
> > KBIG does Disco on KBIG2. What a joke. You think you have
> > enough disco there??
>
> I agree, they are overkilling the stuff. Personally I would
> like to see KBIG add some current Dance product if they're
> going to make their HD2 subchannel all Disco.
>

Better yet just make the HD2 channel of KBIG,Dance CHR. Wouldn't you think more people would buy the HD Receivers if theres something out there they aren't getting enough of on the main channels? Like I don't know... Dance Radio. I know I'm not buying one for sure. Maybe I would if there was programming I like. Not worn out disco music.

It just shows you no matter what they say about being more innovative with the HD alliance its just the same ol $hit in a new package.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by RyanCA on 02/02/06 05:33 AM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: U guys R high

> > Considering Clear Channel has NO CLUE about the L.A.
> market
> > and what works and what doesn't work I think you BOTH are
> > way off base here.
>
> Okay, Mr.
> Newbie-with-friends-who-work-at-stations-outside-the-market,
> I've had about enough already.
>
> It is you who are off base, coming in here and bombarding us
> with lots of know-it-all posts. If Clear Channel "has no
> clue" about this market, tell me why they are doing so well
> in billing. You need to know what you are talking about
> before you post here, or you will be ripped to shreds by the
> regulars.
>
> I leave you wide open to criticism from here on out, and
> will not step in as moderator to defend you against attack
> (unless the attacks get personal).
>
> As the preacher said in "Blazing Saddles" after his Bible
> got shot to pieces: "Son, you're on your own."
>

With all due respect, I think you're missing the points I've been trying to make here... and Clear Channel has no clue in this market or in San Diego for that manner...

Billing and ratings numbers are 2 different things. Billing is not just based on ratings numbers as we all know... KOST is doing fine ratings wise. KIIS and KYSR are both downtrending 12+ the past 6 months... Power has lost a ton of listeners over the past year... and it looks like NONE of their listeners has migrated to KIIS. I've said it before and I will reiterate my point: Clear Channel is in OVER IT'S HEAD in the L.A. market... until they actually bring in some people that know this market or have lived here all of their life, know the history of the market and know the demos, then perhaps their stations would sound less stale and they would achieve the Arbitron numbers that they are capable of. You and I both know that programmed correctly, these stations could have much better numbers and would of course do even better in billing. If you listen to KCBS, you'll hear a lot of "local/regional hits" amongst their GOLD... of course you won't find those kinds of hits on KYSR (except when Richard Blade is running the show)... These stations need people with LOCAL knowledge and right now that appears to be lacking... As long as KYSR continues along it's current path, it's doomed to failure, pure and simple. Hopefully the new PD will attempt to inject some life in the station. I'm not holding my breath though.

KOST is what it is and pretty much always has been... you either love them or hate them... personally, I don't like to listen to a station that spins only 8 songs more than 7 times in a week like they do, but they do have variety and that's what attracts people along with their image positioning. People go there and they know what they are getting... KOST is a brand to a lot people here. You cannot make that claim about KYSR or KBIG. KIIS used to be brand out here and was known as the station of Rick Dees and the station that "plays the hits"... well, we all know how they pushed the Dees out of there unceremoniously and now they don't sound like a station that plays the all of the hits unless you're listening Sunday mornings 8-12.

As for the criticism, I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't get personal. Obviously, you (along with many others here) don't share the same programming philosophies that I do, and I respect that...

And I still have my Bible, so no worries here...
 
Re: KIIS

> > > Call-out research only plays a brief piece of a song
> > > (usually the hook portion) to a respondent. It is
> > perfectly
> > > normal for a station to do call-out research not only on
>
> > the
> > > songs currently on the playlist but also for new songs
> by
> > > artists the station has in recurrent rotation.
> >
> > That's one reason why callout is virtually useless when it
>
> > comes to new songs -- that is, songs that aren't being
> > played in the market yet. (Sometimes you get lucky and a
> > song used in a commercial or TV show is getting some
> buzz.)
> >
> > But brand new songs? Even by recognized artists? You're
> > just never going to get a useful read from callout.
> >
> > The PD has to make a gut decision, play the damn thing for
> a
> > couple of weeks, and THEN get useful callout info on it.
>
> Right. I didn't say it clearly above. But my point is
> underscored by Archer's comments: You don't just add a song
> and then put it in high rotation without seeing whether or
> not it tests well.
>
> But another point comes to mind in reading what Archer
> added. A good PD/MD will make that gut decision based on
> the trends that past callouts show. In the case of KIIS,
> the question of whether or not the Nickelback song was a
> valid add had to be influenced by what songs had tested well
> in the past. As David has pointed out, KIIS' listeners tend
> to like rhythmic songs better than rock songs. And I would
> bet the callout shows that preference clearly. So, that
> would cause Nickelback to be passed over, regardless of how
> high it charts nationally.
>
> OTOH, Nickelback fits Star's audience profile rather well.
>

I guess you misunderstood my post... I know very well about the 10-30 second "hooks" that are played to listeners... As a longtime subscriber to R&R, I had the scores every week for a very long time, and also I've been on the Rate The Music.com site for many years rating music in 3 different formats... I'm very well aware of the process... The songs are rated on a 1-5 scale... they also ask you whether or not you're burned out on a song or not... Songs occasionally score over 4.00 (often times these are urban leaning), though the all-time best score I ever saw was by Avril Lavigne's "Complicated" in 2002 (I don't think I'm allowed to post the specific score here)... It's also rare for a song to score below a 3, though it does happen...

Now, getting back to my main point with KIIS is that they don't give the listeners enough say in whether or not they should play a song... Give the long a spike or two to test the listeners reaction... heck, even do it in overnights if you have to... certainly someone is going to call even at 3 in the morning to a station their size... Let the listeners at least feel like they have some sort of say in things to make them feel more a part of the station... you create something called listener loyalty when you do this... Have a "like it or spike it" or "smash or trash" feature at 7 or 8 pm, or at least have something on the website where the listeners can put their opinions in...

FYI, I'm a member of KIIS' listener advisory panel, so every week I go and rate their songs... and every week the 35 or songs that I am asked to rate are either songs on their current playlist or are heavy recurrents... there rarely are ever songs on their survey that are not on their playlist...

As for Nickelback, the listeners don't seem to balk at hearing "How You Remind Me", which is a much harder rock sounding song than "Photograph"... Research numbers in general are VERY overused industry-wide... I don't put a lot of creed into them (most especially Billboard's "Hit Predictor")... "Photograph" came out with a very low national scores as did Kelly Clarkson's "Since U Been Gone" and countless other hit songs have scored poorly... conversely, many songs that have scored very high haven't done so well... The same holds true for the call-out numbers... A song that sounds familiar, no matter who it's by will ALWAYS score lower than something that is fresh and new... A lot of huge hit songs over the years such as Jennifer Paige's hit "Crush" (which KIIS broke) and Kylie Minogue's "Can't Get You Out Of My Head" didn't do well at all in callout, mostly due to the fact that they sounded a little "familiar" even before they got on the air... If you had just taken these two songs test scores, they never would have seen the light of day... The best programmers program with their gut instinct the most... they use the numbers as a guide and they don't "follow the crowd" or trends...
 
Re: KIIS

> > > > > > Well, you do bring up good points, but would it
> > really
> > >
> > > > hurt
> > > > > > to add some non urban hits? I don't think it
> would.
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember, CHRs test their songs frequently if not
> > > > > constantly. If a song does not "test" after a
> certain
> > > > number
> > > > > of weeks or plays, it gets nuked. It is not a hit
> > unless
> > >
> > > > the
> > > > > station's listeners like it.
> > > >
> > > > David makes a good counterpoint here. The definition
> of
> > a
> > >
> > > > "hit" has to be based upon more than national chart
> > > status.
> > > > If, as in Los Angeles, a CHR has to be heavy in
> Hispanic
> >
> > > > appeal, a song that appeals mainly to non-ethnic
> > listeners
> > >
> > > > is not going to be a "hit" on that CHR even if it
> plays
> > on
> > >
> > > > other CHRs in other markets and achieves top-ten chart
>
> > > > status.
> > > >
> > > > Step back and look at this objectively instead of
> > > > subjectively and I think you'll see what we are
> saying.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I totally understand what is being said here, but
> there's
> > > something being completely overlooked... and that is
> that
> > > you can't have accurate call-out numbers if your station
>
> > > isn't playing a song... KIIS plays Nickelback's "How You
>
> > > Remind Me" all of the time, yet they don't play
> > "Photograph"
> > > which spent several weeks in the top 3 nationally. Why
> is
> >
> > > that? Was it any worse or better of a song? Would it's
>
> > > test scores be any different? I doubt it. I have
> several
> >
> > > hispanic friends and relatives and they like all kinds
> of
> > > music... a lot of them like oldies KRTH even and plenty
> of
> >
> > > them like rock edged stuff.
> > >
> > > The problem as I said earlier is that KIIS is VERY
> narrow
> > at
> > > the moment and they have become VERY ARTIST based and
> not
> > > song based... they added the new Kelly Clarkson and Gwen
>
> > > Stefani songs far before the add dates despite neither
> > being
> > > anywhere to as good as their previous hits... and now if
>
> > you
> > > notice, both are falling big time there even though they
>
> > are
> > > rising nationally... more than likely, low call out
> scores
> >
> > > are the culprit... if they had taken the time to listen
> to
> >
> > > these songs before they just blindly added them, then
> > maybe
> > > there would have been some room for the Nickelbacks,
> > > Cascadas and James Blunts of the world... Also, why
> can't
> > > they add a song like Natasha Bedingfield's "Unwritten"
> > which
> > > would fit in better with what they are playing then???
> > It's
> > > VERY obvious to me right now that the powers that be
> > aren't
> > > interested in testing songs with anyone not in that all
> > > important 6-18 female demo... FYI, I am a member of
> their
> > > listener advisory board.
> > >
> > > KIIS has always done best when it "plays all of the
> hits",
> >
> > > right now it's not and looking at the narrowing of their
>
> > > playlist over that time, it's no wonder their Arbitrons
> > are
> > > trending down.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > You have it 100% backwards, KIIS has always done WORST
> when
> > they play "all of the hits". The worst KIIS ever did is
> > shortly after their PD arrived from Boston. The station
> was
> > way too whitebread for LA, they were jumping out of the
> box
> > on acts like the Goo Goo Dolls and it was a total
> disaster.
> >
> > For someone who claims to pay attention to things, how
> could
> > you be so unaware of the huge ratings improvement KIIS got
>
> > when they shifted in a rhythmic direction. Even if they
> are
> > currently down slightly from their recent peak, KIIS is
> > still far higher rated today than they were when they
> played
> > "all the hits".
> >
> > There is one thing I do agree with you on... Song Vs
> artist.
> > On current based formats I think it's better to play a hot
>
> > song from an artist no one ever heard of than a filler
> song
> > follow up by a superstar artist.
> >
>
> KIIS has always done worst when programmed poorly,
> regardless of what "type" of music. If you recall, when
> that certain PD was brought in from Boston, KIIS was coming
> down ever-so-slightly from HUGE ratings that they had during
> the late 90's Pop boom (when Britney and Backstreet Boys
> were a MUST for any CHR station). They were QUITE
> whitebread and were doing incredibly well. The only reason
> their ratings really started to fall (it can be argued) was
> because there was a growing backlash against pop music.
> Boston boy then came in and tried to fix something that
> wasnt really broken (in terms of the structure of how things
> were being done). The music didn't become any more rhythmic
> initially. It was only after Steve Perun was brought in to
> consult that the music became more rhythmic (which is where
> the trends shifted after the pop boom). Then KIIS's ratings
> went back up... It's simple, play the right music and the
> audience won't go away.
>
> It should also be noted that KIIS, while still heavily
> rhythmic, is playing slightly more pop than they were when
> Steve Perun was first brought back. I would guess that
> that's simply because the marketplace is moving back towards
> the pop (thanks to the Kellys and Gwens and Ashlees, etc).
>
> A top 40 station should ALWAYS play all types of music as
> pretty much the format. It's the BALANCE of those types
> that makes or breaks a station.
>

SNL, that's about as well thought-out a post as I've seen here... play the hits and the listeners will come... it's pretty simple isn't it??? Keep it balanced and you make everyone happy... We all know music goes in cycles and thankfully it does finally appear to be moving towards a more pop direction overall...
 
Re: KIIS

>
> I guess you misunderstood my post... I know very well about
> the 10-30 second "hooks" that are played to listeners... As
> a longtime subscriber to R&R, I had the scores every week
> for a very long time, and also I've been on the Rate The
> Music.com site for many years rating music in 3 different
> formats... I'm very well aware of the process... The songs
> are rated on a 1-5 scale... they also ask you whether or not
> you're burned out on a song or not... Songs occasionally
> score over 4.00 (often times these are urban leaning),
> though the all-time best score I ever saw was by Avril
> Lavigne's "Complicated" in 2002 (I don't think I'm allowed
> to post the specific score here)... It's also rare for a
> song to score below a 3, though it does happen...

You really do not know anything about call out. You are talking about public polls done for a national magazine, more for show than anything else. Stations use different techniques, using far more sophisticated recruit techniques, different scales and so on. Many use 0 to 100 for scores, and songs that never get over aa 20 or 30 are really common.
>
> Now, getting back to my main point with KIIS is that they
> don't give the listeners enough say in whether or not they
> should play a song... Give the long a spike or two to test
> the listeners reaction... heck, even do it in overnights if
> you have to... certainly someone is going to call even at 3
> in the morning to a station their size...

Calls are not used to determine airply. Push methods, not pull, are used to get a true random recruit.

And the PD decides on what new music is added, based on their programming philosophy, balance, past history, etc.

: Let the listeners
> at least feel like they have some sort of say in things to
> make them feel more a part of the station... you create
> something called listener loyalty when you do this... Have a
> "like it or spike it" or "smash or trash" feature at 7 or 8
> pm, or at least have something on the website where the
> listeners can put their opinions in...

There is no validity to this research, it is deceptive and a sham.
>
> FYI, I'm a member of KIIS' listener advisory panel, so every
> week I go and rate their songs... and every week the 35 or
> songs that I am asked to rate are either songs on their
> current playlist or are heavy recurrents... there rarely are
> ever songs on their survey that are not on their playlist...

Why would they ask the average LA listener to rate sons they are not playing? They have a PD to add new music, with very special criteria. They use the panel as a way of seing "cutting edge" (panels are ultra active listeners and not typical) for what may be happening. They are useful, but only if combined with regular call out.
>
>
> As for Nickelback, the listeners don't seem to balk at
> hearing "How You Remind Me", which is a much harder rock
> sounding song than "Photograph"... Research numbers in
> general are VERY overused industry-wide... I don't put a lot
> of creed into them (most especially Billboard's "Hit
> Predictor")...

Neither do any of us. Which is why we do station specific in house research we do not publish or reveal. The stuff in magazines is mostly BS.


> have seen the light of day... The best programmers program
> with their gut instinct the most... they use the numbers as
> a guide and they don't "follow the crowd" or trends...

Actually, the best programmers use gut on new adds, and go by the numbers from then on.
>
 
Re: U guys R high

>
> With all due respect, I think you're missing the points I've
> been trying to make here... and Clear Channel has no clue
> in this market or in San Diego for that manner...

No evidence presented except your opinions on a Nickelback (sp) song.
>
> Billing and ratings numbers are 2 different things.
> Billing is not just based on ratings numbers as we all
> know...

Billing in LA is almost entirely based on ratings, but not the 12+ ratings you are seing. It is based on the specific demos that advertisers buy, most afre parts of 25-54.


> KOST is doing fine ratings wise. KIIS and KYSR are
> both downtrending 12+ the past 6 months...

Agencies use multi book averages. On a 4 book average, KIIS is doing great, and wobbles of a few tenths of a point are ignored.

Star was way off in ratings and billing last year, and they are working on it. owever, it still has great female 25-44 numbers, and bills marvelously.

> Power has lost a
> ton of listeners over the past year...

To XOL, which has no defense potential. And they are #1 18-34, which is their sales demo.

> and it looks like
> NONE of their listeners has migrated to KIIS.

KXOL. The market is rhythmic.

> I've said it
> before and I will reiterate my point: Clear Channel is in
> OVER IT'S HEAD in the L.A. market... until they actually
> bring in some people that know this market or have lived
> here all of their life, know the history of the market and
> know the demos, then perhaps their stations would sound less
> stale and they would achieve the Arbitron numbers that they
> are capable of.

They are doing marvelously in ratings and billings. Of course, you do not have thier research, the real Arbitron numbers, so how would you know?

By the way, living in a market has never been a requirement for a good PD. Bill Drake was from the deep South and he did OK with KHJ and KRTH, huh? It is about how well you program, not how long you have lived there.

> You and I both know that programmed
> correctly, these stations could have much better numbers and
> would of course do even better in billing.

I doubt it. They are doing great for a competitive market. I do not see how they could do better on the average.

> If you listen
> to KCBS, you'll hear a lot of "local/regional hits" amongst
> their GOLD... of course you won't find those kinds of hits
> on KYSR (except when Richard Blade is running the show)...
> These stations need people with LOCAL knowledge and right
> now that appears to be lacking... As long as KYSR continues
> along it's current path, it's doomed to failure, pure and
> simple. Hopefully the new PD will attempt to inject some
> life in the station. I'm not holding my breath though.

Local hits are a myth. Half the population here today did not live here 30 years ago. There are not enough locals to matter.
>
> KOST is what it is and pretty much always has been... you
> either love them or hate them... personally, I don't like
> to listen to a station that spins only 8 songs more than 7
> times in a week like they do, but they do have variety and
> that's what attracts people along with their image
> positioning. People go there and they know what they are
> getting... KOST is a brand to a lot people here.

KOST is a 35-54 female station. They do not even research men, you know? You are not supposed to like it. They don't care if you like it.


> You
> cannot make that claim about KYSR or KBIG.

Star is a 25-44 female station. They do not care if you like it. They would probably be distressed if you did, as it indicates they are off target.

> KIIS used to be
> brand out here and was known as the station of Rick Dees and
> the station that "plays the hits"... well, we all know how
> they pushed the Dees out of there unceremoniously and now
> they don't sound like a station that plays the all of the
> hits unless you're listening Sunday mornings 8-12.

Dees did not appeal to the KIIS target. They had one demo in the morning, anohter all day. Now, with seacrest, the num bers are better and are additive to the rest of the day. Big win, and proves they are risk takers and know what they are doing.
>
> As for the criticism, I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't
> get personal. Obviously, you (along with many others here)
> don't share the same programming philosophies that I do, and
> I respect that...

You are going too far. A non-programmer with no experience can not have programming philosophies. You can have ideas or suggestions, but unless you parctice, do not preach like you were a real programmer. One thing is to give opinions, but saying CC is clueless or to lay into Star, Power or KIIS without a clue of thier demo target, Arbitron numbers or the reserach that guides them is ingenuous.
 
Re: U guys R high

> > >. I've said it
> before and I will reiterate my point: Clear Channel is in
> OVER IT'S HEAD in the L.A. market... until they actually
> bring in some people that know this market or have lived
> here all of their life, know the history of the market and
> know the demos, then perhaps their stations would sound less
> stale and they would achieve the Arbitron numbers that they
> are capable of. You and I both know that programmed
> correctly, these stations could have much better numbers and
> would of course do even better in billing. If you listen
> to KCBS, you'll hear a lot of "local/regional hits" amongst
> their GOLD... of course you won't find those kinds of hits
> on KYSR (except when Richard Blade is running the show)...
> These stations need people with LOCAL knowledge and right
> now that appears to be lacking... As long as KYSR continues
> along it's current path, it's doomed to failure, pure and
> simple. Hopefully the new PD will attempt to inject some
> life in the station. I'm not holding my breath though.
>

I agree with 99% of the points you made. However, there are a few points that seem particularly disturbing. I don't think the solution is necessarily to have someone who's "lived here" all their lives. In fact, many of the radio stations in LA achieved their highest level of success with talented, competent, and capable programmers who didn't grow up here. Among others, neither John Ivey, Jimmy Steal, Michael Steele, nor Kevin Weatherly grew up in LA. I would suggest that Clear Channel understand the market, but maybe overestimates themselves a bit.

And what local/regional hits are you talking about??? The same ol' KROQ fare?? Dramarama and Oingo Boingo? I believe there was one Richard Blade show, taped a decade ago and repeated every weekend. You can hear the shabbily edit artist id's with STAR now where the artist had said "Kroq".

KYSR is suffering from the same depressed format that plagues HOT AC's all over the country. And with a morning show that's now particularly strong, the situation is a little worse. It's not an LA problem..its a format problem.
 
> This is not Clear Channel's fault. This whole complaint of
> your is essentially "why don't they play more white music
> for me" in a city that is decidedly ehtnic and rhythmic.
>
> If you want that kind of music, go to Minneapolis.
>

Ironic choice you provide, given that KDWB is owned by Clear Channel, and somewhat Rhythmic!
 
> As for CC, I think the "average listener" is a little more
> aware of what is going on than you might think. I have a
> good friend at work who also happens to also work at a
> Culumus station (KVYB) part time and we talk about the
> industry a lot... she's surprised by the questions people
> sometimes ask her and their knowledge... I'm a member at
> several artists fansites and we regularly discuss the
> conglomerates like CC, Cumulus (they made a big mistake last
> week stopping the adds reporting), and others... the true
> music fans are fascinated by this stuff and if you're a
> numbers geek like me, then even moreso... The people on the
> Pulse boards also have a lot of knowledge (and a few
> industry people post there as well)... Maybe I should start
> a "grass roots" campaign. :)
>
> Anyways, I look forward to learning more about the industry
> and chatting with people with knowledge on your level.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> John

As said above, people who post on sites like this, Pulse (where we are both members of) and fan sites are not your typical radio listener. In fact, an overwhelming number of them don't even have modest knowledge to the inner workings of running a radio station. They may be able to detect something isn't right about a radio station the way they have known it, but any real listener organization to force a station to make chances are extremely rare, except for not listening and ratings drop. And for the people who talk to your friend at Cumulus or at any radio station, they make up part of the only less than 1% (maybe even a smaller fraction) of people who ever even bother to call or e-mail a radio station. Most of the calls and e-mails stations get are from the same five listeners who call and e-mail over and over. That's why you can't use incoming phone calls, e-mails and posts on a fan site as a be-all-end-all to tell what's hot and what's not.

While I do share some sentiments about playlists, etc., one thing you have to understand is that what works in Peoria may not be what works in Los Angeles. Heck, what works in Ventura may not be what works in Los Angeles. This is where localness is crucial. While we may not like the choices that we have in our local markets, the only thing we can do is either 1) grin it and bear or it, 2) listen to CDs and iPods, 3) buy satellite radio, 4) listen to Internet radio or 5) not listen to the radio at all.
<P ID="signature">______________
"...and the countdown continues until the neanderthals that govern college football do something about their pathetic postseason."--Tim Brando, Sporting News Radio</P>
 
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