Columbus June PPMs

[AnalyticalMonkey]

Can't disagree about Sterling being weird. I don't think Dave Kaylor has the smarts for radio. After retiring he reported from the political conventions a couple of times and he cannot think on his feet at all. If he doesn't have a script in front of him he's lost (a lot of TV people seem to be that way).

Bob Hetherington is an interesting choice, I had forgotten about him. He's kind of a Kurt Ludlow type--solid, calm, composed. But then I started thinking about it and he's gotta be pushing 60 now. And therein lies WTVN's problem. Even if they start broadcasting on FM how do they grab ahold of an audience that isn't getting older and shrinking every day? Anybody like that seems like a quick fix. A recent Harris or Gallup poll showed that people watch a lot more TV and rely less on radio when they get into their 70s and older and that's only 5 years removed from the workforce. I think a lot of WTVN's listeners will hit 70 in the next five years.

So Sterling may be too weird for morning radio, I agree. Then again, if he picks up thousands of younger listeners it might help produce the audience shift that TVN simply must have to remain viable into the future. Nothing about their current format (on AM or FM) will do that.

Maybe I'm not thinking out of the box enough like you are when it comes to Sterling. I like Sterling, but I think I like Dirk Thompson even better. I like bombastic muckraking on occasion. It's a fine line sometimes between maintaining credibility and becoming a circus clown, but occasional ranting about something does get the blood flowing.

Doug Leselles is another one ... he still sounds great whenever I hear him on Catholic Radio.

Hetherington is 57, he had nice enough presence on TV and it's not like the old days where he would have to worry too much about ratings too much. (No CHR or Rock Wars anymore.) I could see him asking the types of questions Conners asked without getting too political but with enough talent to carry the show.

CC doesn't want to pay anybody anymore, I'm guessing that's why Conners is no longer there. (I heard Jeff Rapp congratulating Conners for a great career and for being able to go out on his own terms. Conners said, "Well, not exactly.") ... but they need somebody good for that slot. If you get one of these guys with real jobs during the day (like Dusty Rhodes in Cincinnati), and only make them work 3 hours a day, that might be the ticket to getting someone good in that slot.

I hear you about wanting to get a younger profile, but Conners worked in that slot. I didn't consider him "old" ... it's not like he talked about remembering when they first installed electricity or anything. He said little enough that he was still relatable ... I think if he started talking about his interests more (like Joel with the "Ford Guy" example I gave above), that's when people are unable to relate. I wasn't a huge fan of O'Malley, but I think he would sound good doing the same thing Conners used to do.

Like I said, for Hetherington or O'Malley, they could consider it like free advertising for their real estate businesses.

I wonder if rotating these guys would work ... in case radio doesn't pay enough to be attractive to any of them. Hetherington, O'Malley, Kaylor, Leselles, Sterling on separate days with Joel as producer being the constant.

Just thinking out loud, don't know if any of this is practical.

 

[AnalyticalMonkey]

Thought of another one: Randy Rhinehart, from Auto Smarts. He has a great voice, in my opinion and does okay with the Auto Smarts chat. If he has enough brains to do a news show and ask good questions, he would really give them a professional sounding morning show.

Not asking much out of him, either. Just do the same thing Conners used to do. Nobody cares about your opinions, just ask questions and occasionally call out the BS.

 

[Mr. Glimps]

I think Chuck Gillespie is still in town. I remember he did a solid job subbing for Bob a few years back. He's a pro with strong local ties.

 

[AnalyticalMonkey]

I think Chuck Gillespie is still in town. I remember he did a solid job subbing for Bob a few years back. He's a pro with strong local ties.

Yes. Good call. Chuck would be a great morning guy.

 

[cameheretosaythis]

I think Chuck Gillespie is still in town. I remember he did a solid job subbing for Bob a few years back. He's a pro with strong local ties.

Thanks Chuck!

 

[KFodor]

I'm not entirely sure if it's further erosion of AM stations or political talk is losing listeners except for it's very core audience or a bit of both. I saw someone on this board use the phrase "new political reality". And maybe that has something to do with it.

But while there is some variability, in most markets surrounding Columbus we've seen erosion in Cincinnati, Detroit, Cleveland and , Toledo. Only Dayton has showed a general increase. Pittsburgh is flat. And Pittsburgh is on an FM.

Maybe even Rush can no longer single handedly save AM radio.

I don't think talk radio as a format is dead, but there are a few things going on here:

1. Joel Riley. I was listening to the 9 o'clock hour on WTAM this morning. Entertaining and fun to listen to. Joel is simply not entertaining enough and not polished enough to carry the show. He would be an okay sidekick, though.

2. WTVN has been decimated by Clear Channel. Two guys in the news department (Matt Bruning technically works for WLW)? On a news station? A news station on autopilot? Give me a break. Although, I have to admit that I like Dean Muccio at night.

3. People are sick of the conservative/liberal talk. Both sides are equally odious.

4. I think Rush Limbaugh represents a "changing of the guard" of sorts. Rush is the last of the cold war/love Israel at all costs brand of conservatives. After a war in Iraq most people think was insane, right-wing hawks have lost a lot of credibility with their followers. I think the sweet spot in political radio right now would be someone with more Rand Paul-style views (small government, low taxes, stop being the world's policeman).

5. I think they all forgot that radio is all about entertainment value. Rush was downright funny 20 years ago. Not so much anymore.

6. Rush Limbaugh on the radio is just fine, but I don't think Hannity, Levin and Beck are going to play in Columbus. Even before the influx of people from NE Ohio, this was not a talk-radio conservative's kind of place. It was always more of a RINO-Republican type place.

7. People love local and local presence is where it's at. Clear Channel has decimated the local ranks ... they cut a bunch of $30,000 or $40,000 a year people to save money and now the ratings have been cut in half.

8. Historically, Saturday morning was always spent hawking cars on WTVN (Byers' Bandwagon), but at least there was some real programming mixed in. Saturday Morning Open Phones was a great show. Fun to listen to all the regulars calling in ... Auto Smarts? Booooorrrrrrrinnnnngggg. Steve Germain's jokes are funny, but he reinforces the notion of a sleezy car dealer ... especially when he advises people to patch up a car and sell it (i.e. stick someone else with it). Jessica Germain has an annoying voice.

That's my two cents'

All reasonable points. But, I also want to chime in on what's been going on with the slow (apparently planned) disintegration of the WTVN News Department. Seems like this was the "beginning" of the slide for them, well before Obama's re-election. And the more people that left, and the less reliable the station became in its delivering of local information, the faster the slide in ratings got.

Just my two cents, but as far back as I go with the News/Talk format (back to the mid 70's, in fact), it had always been said that good, solid local news with an on street presence was necessary to make that type of station work. Name me a News/Talk station that gets big numbers with no news department, or just one person in the morning. It might be out there, but it would be in the minority to be sure.

Now, add to that the retirement of B.C. (some big shoes to fill). Not saying that Joel Riley isn't busting his butt...I'm sure he is...but any major change to a radio station that was stable in staff for decades will make for at least temporary ratings issues while the new host loses the "old" die hard fans of the previous host and begins to build "his" audience. That type of battle for ears is quite normal in these situations.

Let's also mention that talkers in many of the markets mentioned here that are losing audience have been doing the same thing...cutting their news staffs and on-air local news presence. You rightfully mention Dayton being the apparent exception. Dayton is expanding its local news presence. To be sure, being owned by a company with a big newspaper and a big TV News station helps. But, this leaves me wanting to make a point...it's easy to look at Limbaugh and Hannity and Conservative Talk and blame them and it as the problem. But consider all this and ask yourself, is it remotely possible there's something else at play? After all, Dayton airs Limbaugh and Hannity too. And Dayton/Springfield is hardly a bastion of conservatism, if you look at the political makeups of the area. It has conservative areas, yes...but the cities are solidly Democratic.

Face it: All news...or News Talk is an expensive format to program correctly. Always has been. Always will. It is labor-intensive. But there can be a good payday if an owner is willing to accept that as fact. Are there ways to trim and survive? Sure. But, like the radio textbooks say, "A General Manager must be willing to remind the owner of the dangers of cutting budgets too far, lest product quality be compromised."

 

[del_griffith]

Jason: WHIO was experiencing that WTVN type erosion when it was only an AM station. The addition of the FM signal gave it a new set of lungs.

Matter of fact, during that time of WHIO erosion and before FM, WTVN was still humming along pretty well. It was one of the very few AM stations that wasn't a 50kw blow torch that was in that position. Even with a market that was outgrowing it's directional to the west/southwest and east/southeast night signal.

And yes, thankfully WHIO has maintained a strong news presence.

But as a layman, I believe that WHIO would, even with a beefier news presence, not be enjoying it's current situation without the FM component.

Finally, where did the audience go? There is no other radio source that even comes close to being WTVN or what WTVN once was unless you count WMNI or WOSU and neither has seen the offset bump in ratings as people transitioned.

 

[KFodor]

Jason: WHIO was experiencing that WTVN type erosion when it was only an AM station. The addition of the FM signal gave it a new set of lungs.

Matter of fact, during that time of WHIO erosion and before FM, WTVN was still humming along pretty well. It was one of the very few AM stations that wasn't a 50kw blow torch that was in that position. Even with a market that was outgrowing it's directional to the west/southwest and east/southeast night signal.

And yes, thankfully WHIO has maintained a strong news presence.

But as a layman, I believe that WHIO would, even with a beefier news presence, not be enjoying it's current situation without the FM component.

Finally, where did the audience go? There is no other radio source that even comes close to being WTVN or what WTVN once was unless you count WMNI or WOSU and neither has seen the offset bump in ratings as people transitioned.

Del...

No doubt about that the FM signal helped. Why? Though the AM signal at night, theoretically throws a big footprint to the north, go a bit northeast, and it dies just north of Fairborn at night. That eliminates Springfield from the equation (which didn't get good reception from the AM during the day much in the past 20 years or so). The FM added northern county coverage that it didn't have much of before.

Then add to it, aging demos of AM listeners. When the FM was added, the demos dropped a bit, increasing the numbers 25-54. But, IMHO...the FM was just one part of the equation. The additional resources the station has by being part of the collaborative helps cement the image that the station is the "go-to" for local news coverage on radio. Then, when you add the nation's top talk talent and a strong morning local news block, it all comes together in a critical mass.

Would an FM help 'TVN? Perhaps. But, if the public's "perception" is that the station's news coverage is not as good as it used to be, that could be a problem for them. But, an FM also needs to address something the public perceives as a "problem" (building penetration downtown, a null in a certain direction). The superior quality of FM, I think is a good selling point, but it's not what necessarily "seals the deal" with the listeners, especially the upper demo crowd, which is accustomed to AM and initially, I think, is reluctant to switch.

Anyone who works in radio for any length of time understands the saying that "perception is reality". And, certainly, the folks at Clear Channel can be very good at it. It's not what something is...but what the public perceives it is that often drives their thinking. How do you think some politicians get elected these days?

Some of our nation's political leaders (just like some radio programmers) understand that better than others. And I wish a few of the others would get with the program.

 

[del_griffith]

I'm not sure the public, outside of those of us in the business, those of us who are geeks, those who are wannabes and those who believed WTVN was their personal forum that you see post on Facebook pages and the like, has indicated they are not satisfied with the changes. And the loss of news isn't the latter's issue. It's the loss of a couple of favorite weekend hosts. I don't see much or for that matter of the I miss Bob Conners posts. I do see periodically the loss of those weekend guys on their facebook pages from their specific fans. But news coverage doesn't seem to be the driving force.

I during the week have a 9-5 life. No one I work with has said "I miss Bob Conners". There was some chatter when he announced his retirement. But after he left. Crickets. I'm old enough to remember when John Fraim was let go by WTVN and Bob moved into his spot. There was talk and chatter for a while as people started to adjust to Bob's different style in the morning from his afternoon show and the shift from the more fatherly Fraim to the more hip Bob.

No one has said "have you noticed WTVN no longer has local news in the evening or local anchors and that some of their news is from Cincy"?

Oh and I'm a believer in local. I wish the loss of local was more perceptible to the public and the reaction more apparent to management. But I've also considered that I've become a relic.

And I go back to where did the audience go? For as much as they should be news and chatter junkies, there really isn't much choice and the choices that are their have seen growth. The only thing I could see is the silent majority WTVN listners found a home with the oldies on WODC. The music matches the demo. But that station is more devoid of news than WTVN whether it come from a local studio, a Cincy studio or a network studio.

 

[towercity]

Local programming on talk radio would be a huge improvement over the same old conservative national programming but I don't think it can ever get back to where it was, even on FM, at least not for long.

Take The Fan, for example. Has a lot of local programming but if the host says, "After the break we'll tell you why Browns owner Jimmy Haslam is in more trouble." Well, I can look it up and probably know more about the topic than the host does by the time he comes back from the break. Same with Corby's topics on WTVN. I guess it's a matter of whether I want the radio guy's personality injected into the information and often times I discover that I don't--unless they are unusually crisp, funny and entertaining and there just isn't a lot of that. It's like sit-coms on TV--if I only get a couple of good chuckles out of a half hour show it's not worth it--I can be more entertained talking to my neighbor over the fence.

That's one reason why I think of Sterling as a more interesting morning guy than the 55-65 year old radio and TV people suggested previously. Sterling can be on-topic and be making great points one minute, then sound more neurotic than Woody Allen the next. That's unusual. That grabs me, even if I don't agree with him on everything. He also talks fast and covers an amazing amount of ground per sentence, sorta like Gordon Gee. Which makes him endlessly entertaining once you get used to him.

Whoa--there's your answer. E. Gordon Gee.

 

[towercity]

Inall seriousness though, what about John Remy? The guy had a bigger than life personality that's sort of a throwback to old AM Radio.

 

[KFodor]

I'm not sure the public, outside of those of us in the business, those of us who are geeks, those who are wannabes and those who believed WTVN was their personal forum that you see post on Facebook pages and the like, has indicated they are not satisfied with the changes. And the loss of news isn't the latter's issue. It's the loss of a couple of favorite weekend hosts. I don't see much or for that matter of the I miss Bob Conners posts. I do see periodically the loss of those weekend guys on their facebook pages from their specific fans. But news coverage doesn't seem to be the driving force.

I during the week have a 9-5 life. No one I work with has said "I miss Bob Conners". There was some chatter when he announced his retirement. But after he left. Crickets. I'm old enough to remember when John Fraim was let go by WTVN and Bob moved into his spot. There was talk and chatter for a while as people started to adjust to Bob's different style in the morning from his afternoon show and the shift from the more fatherly Fraim to the more hip Bob.

No one has said "have you noticed WTVN no longer has local news in the evening or local anchors and that some of their news is from Cincy"?

Oh and I'm a believer in local. I wish the loss of local was more perceptible to the public and the reaction more apparent to management. But I've also considered that I've become a relic.

And I go back to where did the audience go? For as much as they should be news and chatter junkies, there really isn't much choice and the choices that are their have seen growth. The only thing I could see is the silent majority WTVN listners found a home with the oldies on WODC. The music matches the demo. But that station is more devoid of news than WTVN whether it come from a local studio, a Cincy studio or a network studio.

The only thing I will dispute here...is whether the loss of "a couple of weekend hosts" is capable of making a station drop 4 share points 12 plus in the past couple of years...

 

[gabigley1]

Inall seriousness though, what about John Remy? The guy had a bigger than life personality that's sort of a throwback to old AM Radio.

John Remy has been the voice behind SWACO Radio WPYF–783 at 1630 AM. That station came on the air about nine years ago but have heard it for a few years now. Sure wouldn't mind hearing
John Remy doing mornings on WTVN. More on that Low Power traffic station here:

Http://www.franklincountyohio.gov/fc/content/press/swaco02-10-11.cfm‎

Speaking of WTVN, haven't heard Shawn Ireland during her usual 4PM to 6PM Sunday time slot for the last three Sundays. It appears she has given up that time slot she was paying for.

 

[AnalyticalMonkey]

I'm not sure the public, outside of those of us in the business, those of us who are geeks, those who are wannabes and those who believed WTVN was their personal forum that you see post on Facebook pages and the like, has indicated they are not satisfied with the changes. And the loss of news isn't the latter's issue. It's the loss of a couple of favorite weekend hosts. I don't see much or for that matter of the I miss Bob Conners posts. I do see periodically the loss of those weekend guys on their facebook pages from their specific fans. But news coverage doesn't seem to be the driving force.

I during the week have a 9-5 life. No one I work with has said "I miss Bob Conners". There was some chatter when he announced his retirement. But after he left. Crickets. I'm old enough to remember when John Fraim was let go by WTVN and Bob moved into his spot. There was talk and chatter for a while as people started to adjust to Bob's different style in the morning from his afternoon show and the shift from the more fatherly Fraim to the more hip Bob.

No one has said "have you noticed WTVN no longer has local news in the evening or local anchors and that some of their news is from Cincy"?

Oh and I'm a believer in local. I wish the loss of local was more perceptible to the public and the reaction more apparent to management. But I've also considered that I've become a relic.

And I go back to where did the audience go? For as much as they should be news and chatter junkies, there really isn't much choice and the choices that are their have seen growth. The only thing I could see is the silent majority WTVN listners found a home with the oldies on WODC. The music matches the demo. But that station is more devoid of news than WTVN whether it come from a local studio, a Cincy studio or a network studio.

I love expressing my thoughts with analogies, so here's one for you: auto enthusiasts. Most people don't really care about vehicles the way auto enthusiasts do. They buy a car for practical reasons. But what I have noticed over time is that when auto enthusiasts like something mainstream, the general public motoring public also tends to like it too.

I think the same thing can be said for radio: When the enthusiasts like something mainstream, it generally is a wild hit. One example I always use is mainstream CHR with the right kind of rhythmic element. (I would put WFLZ back during the Power Pig days and Z-93 in Dayton in that category, Wild 93.9 in Lima and even Star 107.9 (hat tip to Jason)). Once you hear it done right, you never forget the sound .. and it is oh so obvious when it's being done wrong.

So, while you are correct that the average person who doesn't pay attention to these things might not be cognizant of the actual nuts and bolts that went into WTVN being what it used to be, they know they aren't interested in listening anymore and have tuned out.

I found an old thread here where some of the old radio talent was being remembered. I think it was you who stated that not all of them were great, but there were great ones in that list. I agree with that statement. But again, people did pay attention to those who were great!

Now as to Connors, that's not somebody you "miss". He's not a "Danny Thomas" type of person who did things for kids, or had some way of connecting with the community, but he was good at what he did. Much better than the guy who replaced him. Not to rip on Joel (again), but I have no problem with him as a DJ. He was just fine on 93.3 ... he's just not right for that morning slot ... nor is letting his conservative politics show right for that slot, either. And I say that not being a lefty!

The only thing I will dispute here...is whether the loss of "a couple of weekend hosts" is capable of making a station drop 4 share points 12 plus in the past couple of years...

You have an AM station, consistently Top-3 or Top-5. That is like owning a trophy building somewhere or like when Detroit was the wealthiest city in America. I don't understand why anybody wouldn't take care of an asset like that in the manner it deserves to be taken care of. What they've done to WTVN is like taking a $1.4 million dollar mansion and putting vinyl siding on it. Unbelieveable that people get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to make decisions like these.

 

[gabigley1]

Speaking of WTVN, haven't heard Shawn Ireland during her usual 4PM to 6PM Sunday time slot for the last three Sundays. It appears she has given up that time slot she was paying for.
UPDATE:
Just saw this on the SIS, aka Shawn Ireland Show website and it looks like her show is moving up:

"SIS IS MOVING ON UP!!!!

**Begining In August, join your SIS on the Radio on WODC-Oldies 93.3 FM Columbus, Saturday morning 8-10 am, and WVNU Lite 97.5 FM-Washington Court House/Greenfield, Sunday noon-2pm!"

 

[KFodor]

Because the demographics of most AM radio stations are becoming a challenge at the sales end of things, most companies are not, sadly, taking care of the stations like they used to.

In some cases, if the answer to the question, "Is it on the air?" is Yes, the reply is, "Then it's fine".

All this while they cut personnel, cut promotions, cut, cut, cut...and can't understand why the ratings are sliding...

 

[del_griffith]

I'm not sure the public, outside of those of us in the business, those of us who are geeks, those who are wannabes and those who believed WTVN was their personal forum that you see post on Facebook pages and the like, has indicated they are not satisfied with the changes. And the loss of news isn't the latter's issue. It's the loss of a couple of favorite weekend hosts. I don't see much or for that matter of the I miss Bob Conners posts. I do see periodically the loss of those weekend guys on their facebook pages from their specific fans. But news coverage doesn't seem to be the driving force.

I during the week have a 9-5 life. No one I work with has said "I miss Bob Conners". There was some chatter when he announced his retirement. But after he left. Crickets. I'm old enough to remember when John Fraim was let go by WTVN and Bob moved into his spot. There was talk and chatter for a while as people started to adjust to Bob's different style in the morning from his afternoon show and the shift from the more fatherly Fraim to the more hip Bob.

No one has said "have you noticed WTVN no longer has local news in the evening or local anchors and that some of their news is from Cincy"?

Oh and I'm a believer in local. I wish the loss of local was more perceptible to the public and the reaction more apparent to management. But I've also considered that I've become a relic.

And I go back to where did the audience go? For as much as they should be news and chatter junkies, there really isn't much choice and the choices that are their have seen growth. The only thing I could see is the silent majority WTVN listners found a home with the oldies on WODC. The music matches the demo. But that station is more devoid of news than WTVN whether it come from a local studio, a Cincy studio or a network studio.

The only thing I will dispute here...is whether the loss of "a couple of weekend hosts" is capable of making a station drop 4 share points 12 plus in the past couple of years...

I'm sorry if that's what you took from that, because it wasn't the conclusion I was trying to project. Just trying to pass on that they have a certain contingency of noisy and loyal fans. Sort of like Ron Paul.

The catalyst of the share loss is in the core of the schedule. Again, whether it's during certain time periods or overall across all dayparts is the unknown.

 

[talkers]

Speaking of WTVN, haven't heard Shawn Ireland during her usual 4PM to 6PM Sunday time slot for the last three Sundays. It appears she has given up that time slot she was paying for.
UPDATE:
Just saw this on the SIS, aka Shawn Ireland Show website and it looks like her show is moving up:

"SIS IS MOVING ON UP!!!!

**Begining In August, join your SIS on the Radio on WODC-Oldies 93.3 FM Columbus, Saturday morning 8-10 am, and WVNU Lite 97.5 FM-Washington Court House/Greenfield, Sunday noon-2pm!"

Since her show is heavily female, WODC is a much better fit for her show than WTVN since it leans male.

 

[Nu_Roo_2]

I'm sorry if that's what you took from that, because it wasn't the conclusion I was trying to project. Just trying to pass on that they have a certain contingency of noisy and loyal fans. Sort of like Ron Paul.

The catalyst of the share loss is in the core of the schedule. Again, whether it's during certain time periods or overall across all dayparts is the unknown.

That contingency of noisy and loyal fans could help explain why we don't seem to be seeing as much talk format erosion in non-PPM markets, even the largest ones. The core's fervor could make that format especially prone to diary-keepers logging exaggerated listening, either intentionally or unintentionally.

 

[del_griffith]

And I should have said Ron Paul fans not simply Ron Paul. For someone who elicits so much passion, he himself generally is gentlemanly.