Comments from engineers about HD Radio and it's "much smarter brother"

[LinoNYC]

I have checked repeatedly over the recent years for any hard ratings evidence, as you are well aware, there is none.

There are none so blind as those who will not see. The ratings evidence is right in front of you. Demographics. Find me the number of listeners to AM radio under the age of 50. Keep moving the age down. Look at the evidence.



Wrong. When music formats moved over to FM, what formats were put on AMs? Talk. News. Sports. Formats that young people have no interest in. Again, the ratings are the evidence. Talk/news/sports formats, with precious few exceptions, have no listeners under age 50. AM stations abandoned music formats, and that's why the young people abandoned AM. After all, they put up with inferior audio quality for decades before the switch, even when they had LP records and Dolby cassette tapes available to them.

It's not better audio that's going to bring them back, and it's not going to happen overnight, even if HD-AM could fly...which it can't.

I've got to admit you have me dumbfounded by your response.

How can someone with your experience and longevity be so at-odds with the history of his own industry?

One of your former employers (ABC) formed a talk network in the early 1980s because they had seen what was happening to their AM O&Os and perceived a wider market among other AM operations that had lost the youth/music audience.

At the time (early 80s) I read two articles that were critical of this decision, they pointed out that Talk, Nostalgia and even oldies were essentially terminal formats with fixed audiences that would eventually age-out,

"Eventually" is here.

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If you doubt that quality is/was the downfall of am for young listeners, entertain this thought of mine: If WABC had AM iboc and sounded as it can now, back in 1982 do you think a crap gonzo station like Z-100 would have gotten off the ground in 1983?

If AM had sounded then as it can today with iboc we wouldn't be seeing this "shortwaving" of the band.

It's not better audio that's going to bring them back, and it's not going to happen overnight, even if HD-AM could fly...which it can't.

You may be right. Tragedy. Waste.

Lino

 

[mgpt6]

FMXtra has been around since 2005. Those who have seen it ,love it. But DRE will not market it in the USA,only overseas.

 

[KB1OKL]

As for AM, the rock solid daytime signal of KYW barely decodes (it flickers in and out like a bad cellphone). You can't listen to it. At night, forget it. Not one other Philadelphia market AM station can be received in HD, no matter what I do with various antennae. Mind you, I have a wire AM antenna hooked up to the thing and am a radio geek. The average listener isn't going to mess with this. On the other hand, the analog signals come in ok.

Basically, this AM IBOC technology sucks for the end user. All you're doing is badly compromising the analog signal for a minimal benefit. The sidebands interfere badly with analog reception, yet you need to have an 8+/10 signal to make the HD signal decode. Basically, you need to be right on top of the transmitter site for it to work. And, you have to set up your system properly for it to receive the signal. Any impurity at all and you don't get the HD benefit on AM. It's appalling and absurd. A total lose-lose. For what? Because it sounds good in a laboratory setting? Ridiculous. If it doesn't work in a real world situation, it's a failure. And no, it doesn't seem to.

If you doubt that quality is/was the downfall of am for young listeners, entertain this thought of mine: If WABC had AM iboc and sounded as it can now, back in 1982 do you think a crap gonzo station like Z-100 would have gotten off the ground in 1983?

If AM had sounded then as it can today with iboc we wouldn't be seeing this "shortwaving" of the band.

Lino

Lino did you read the quote on top of yours? If you did how can you say that IBOC in ANY time or place would have succeeded? It's just plain old bad technology that doesn't work. I have read so many different accounts of IBOC, same story, different authors I can't understand how ANYONE can even still stick up for IBOC, especially AM-IBOC. It's as bad as turning on an AM radio in a room full of Fluorescent lights, worse actually.

 

[LinoNYC]

Lino did you read the quote on top of yours? If you did how can you say that IBOC in ANY time or place would have succeeded? It's just plain old bad technology that doesn't work. I have read so many different accounts of IBOC, same story, different authors I can't understand how ANYONE can even still stick up for IBOC, especially AM-IBOC. It's as bad as turning on an AM radio in a room full of Fluorescent lights, worse actually.


That is just a stupid statement.

As for the "author" of these tales of woe, there have been, and still are others who voice positive experiences but characters such as yourself have made it a point to ridicule and drive them off.

It's understandable why no one bothers to stay around long once they see that a clique of naysayers, often with no connection to radio and limited knowledge will use them to vent some sort of frustrations they have.

As you may have noticed, I am more than happy to take you on.

Lino

 

[calstymes]

A question for LinoNYC:

Do you own shares in iBiquity? Are you looking forward to a public offering? It's really quite alright if you do. I am simply curious.

You may elect to ignore this post, which is fine by me, or call me an idiot, which is fine by me as well (since I have been called much worse), but the fact of the matter remains, engineering personnel at AM radio stations which have gotten behind and installed this technology by order of their corporate engineering departments are now privately saying that it is looking like AM HD is over and will never make it.

So in the face of the increasing number of industry professionals who are jumping off the AM IBOC lollypop ship, including some who actually post here surreptitiously or otherwise, I am just somewhat astounded at how you can continue to defend this system which considers itself to be a technology of the future, but isn't really much more than an ABLISNG (that's an "analog bandwidth-limiting interfering sideband noise generator" for those who don't know) that has a relatively poor AD/DA conversion algorithm and for which iBiquity and/or its predecessor(s) paid huge amounts of money to suppress competing and superior technology in its application for this purpose.

Oh wait, that's right. The payoff doesn't come until the public offering has been made. My bad!

 

[Play Freebird]

If you want to make IBOC work on AM, you would need to revoke licenses from most of the little guys. Because the band is too damn crowded on AM in analogue and there's no real space to steal the sidebands for IBOC. ...

I'm of the opinion that the AM band can be saved by thinning out the herd (pulling in licenses) and by recognizing the reality that AM signals bounce when the sun is set (or low).

Needless to say, there would be a huge political problem if AM licenses were taken from the "little guys" while the large groups were allowed to retain their stations. Using the Philadelphia market as an example, which AM licenses would be revoked? Let's go down the list:

WFIL -- legendary station, but doesn't pull big numbers anymore, so maybe that's a candidate.

WIP -- Still doing OK, owned by CBS, and they discuss sports -- so they get to stay.

WPHE -- A daytimer which doesn't speak English, so they're out of luck.

WURD -- Another daytimer targeting poor people, so they aren't needed either.

WPEN -- Spent a lot of money recently rebuilding transmitter sites, so they get to stay (even though WIP is kicking their butt)

WNTP -- Nothing but right-wing talk, so if the Democrats take control of the FCC, they're gone.

KYW -- Can also be heard on WYSP-HD2, so why retain the AM license? Shut them down!

WNAR -- Yet another daytimer, but licensed to the county seat of populous Montgomery County, so we need to let them stay.

WFYL -- Who?

WPHT -- They run Rush Limbaugh, the savior of AM radio, so should let them keep their license

WHAT -- What? They contribute to high levels of interference of 1340, so we must shut them down.

WPAZ -- Closest station to the Limerick Nuclear Power plant, they definitely need to stay to provide information in case of an emergency.

WNPV -- Great little community station, I think they should stay.

WNWR -- 50 kW daytimer, but owned by a Washington communication attorney, so they get to stay

The alternative approach: Find a way to allow AM stations to simulcast in VHF spectrum (on a shared basis, if necessary), make receivers available to the public at reasonable prices, wait at least 10 years, then allow the licensees to turn in their AM authorizations voluntarily.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Your own company presides over a once-legendary 50K in upstate NY which has spent the last 3 decades going pillar-to-post trying to find a viable format and, if rumors are true, will soon meet an unfortunate end.

Precisely what company do I work for? I've never posted it here. Tell me.

Entercom.

Wrong, but thanks for playing. Sorry, but we're out of the Samsonite luggage.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

One of your former employers (ABC)...

Gawd...you REALLY have me confused with someone else.

 

[BRNout]

If you want to make IBOC work on AM, you would need to revoke licenses from most of the little guys. Because the band is too damn crowded on AM in analogue and there's no real space to steal the sidebands for IBOC. ...

I'm of the opinion that the AM band can be saved by thinning out the herd (pulling in licenses) and by recognizing the reality that AM signals bounce when the sun is set (or low).

Needless to say, there would be a huge political problem if AM licenses were taken from the "little guys" while the large groups were allowed to retain their stations. Using the Philadelphia market as an example, which AM licenses would be revoked? Let's go down the list:

WFIL -- legendary station, but doesn't pull big numbers anymore, so maybe that's a candidate.

WIP -- Still doing OK, owned by CBS, and they discuss sports -- so they get to stay.

WPHE -- A daytimer which doesn't speak English, so they're out of luck.

WURD -- Another daytimer targeting poor people, so they aren't needed either.

WPEN -- Spent a lot of money recently rebuilding transmitter sites, so they get to stay (even though WIP is kicking their butt)

WNTP -- Nothing but right-wing talk, so if the Democrats take control of the FCC, they're gone.

KYW -- Can also be heard on WYSP-HD2, so why retain the AM license? Shut them down!

WNAR -- Yet another daytimer, but licensed to the county seat of populous Montgomery County, so we need to let them stay.

WFYL -- Who?

WPHT -- They run Rush Limbaugh, the savior of AM radio, so should let them keep their license

WHAT -- What? They contribute to high levels of interference of 1340, so we must shut them down.

WPAZ -- Closest station to the Limerick Nuclear Power plant, they definitely need to stay to provide information in case of an emergency.

WNPV -- Great little community station, I think they should stay.

WNWR -- 50 kW daytimer, but owned by a Washington communication attorney, so they get to stay

The alternative approach: Find a way to allow AM stations to simulcast in VHF spectrum (on a shared basis, if necessary), make receivers available to the public at reasonable prices, wait at least 10 years, then allow the licensees to turn in their AM authorizations voluntarily.

You seem to want to take this to a political discussion, hence your absurd comment about WPHT. WPHT and KYW are two signals that should be protected, as they were in the old allocations. It has nothing to do with format, though it can be tempting to make decisions based on this. For example, WPHE is based in Phoenixville and has a Spanish gospel format. And, it probably only has about 3 listeners (on a good day). They certainly DO NOT serve the residents of Phoenixville and the surrounding area. Yes, it would be tempting to put them on the list for potentially cleaning up the band. But, they're also a daytimer - so they don't actually contribute to polluting the band at night. During the day, they're properly spaced from their neighbors. So, they aren't part of the problem. My apologies Freebird, but I'm not jumping at your various attempts to bait me.

To be brutally honest, I think that we should roll back the night time allocations to pre-1986 standards. The daytimers you listed would be safe, but those who've added nighttime service (like WURD) should have to shut down at dark. They do promote interference where it didn't exist before. Their 105 nighttime watts interfere with CHML in this region (just enough to make it noisy) and with first adjacent stations on 890 and 910. Shutting down those sorts of stations at dark would go a long way to cleaning up the band. Has nothing to do with the format, it has to do with fixing past errors in allocating AM service where the FCC chose not to take skywave interference into account. And, yes, this is only an idea. I know it will never happen - but it absolutely should.

Can't you see that when you say "yes" to every little interest group - you end up in a situation where nobody wins? Because that's what has happened to the AM band.

One point where we actually do agree is that an alternate spectrum would be a great option for a lot of these stations. I'd really love to see that happen and to have the AM dial dominated by a few big 50 kw signals that would be clear - and free to use that IBOC technology. At this point though, that seems to be a pipe dream.

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

Can't you see that when you say "yes" to every little interest group - you end up in a situation where nobody wins? Because that's what has happened to the AM band.

One point where we actually do agree is that an alternate spectrum would be a great option for a lot of these stations. I'd really love to see that happen and to have the AM dial dominated by a few big 50 kw signals that would be clear - and free to use that IBOC technology. At this point though, that seems to be a pipe dream.

To borrow a political quote from the early days of the civil-rights struggle: "seperate but equal is not equal".

Any solution for the AM band is going to have to include EVERYBODY. You can't have a solution where the majority of the small operations, and mom & pops literally get evicted and shoved off on to some other piece of spectrum, while an elite handful of clear channel flamethower stations are the only ones to get to stay on Ancient Modulation......oops......I meant AM.

Either everybody stays on AM, or everybody goes. It's the only fair way.

 

[KB1OKL]

Lino did you read the quote on top of yours? If you did how can you say that IBOC in ANY time or place would have succeeded? It's just plain old bad technology that doesn't work. I have read so many different accounts of IBOC, same story, different authors I can't understand how ANYONE can even still stick up for IBOC, especially AM-IBOC. It's as bad as turning on an AM radio in a room full of Fluorescent lights, worse actually.


That is just a stupid statement.

best I could think of in a hurry, there are better analogies of IBOC noise and interference of course.

As for the "author" of these tales of woe, there have been, and still are others who voice positive experiences but characters such as yourself have made it a point to ridicule and drive them off.

I believe they are leaving because one by one they are realizing that IBOC is a complete failure.

It's understandable why no one bothers to stay around long once they see that a clique of naysayers, often with no connection to radio and limited knowledge will use them to vent some sort of frustrations they have.

Or perhaps they get educated here and realize that their seeming pot of gold is really made of tin.

As you may have noticed, I am more than happy to take you on.

I'm not trying to take "anyone on" I just can't believe with so many negative outcomes of iBlock being reported everywhere from experts in the field here on this board, in the radio press and on the radio blogs, and also all the amateur reports that people like you continue to ignore the obvious fact that IBOC is a complete and utter failure. The only positive things I have ever read about it are from pie in the sky innocent radio neophytes, NPR personnel who are getting a free ride at our expense one way or the other (tax payers or donors) and last but definitely not least, employees of iNiquity or people who have connections with the iBlock Alliance.

Lino

 

[BRNout]

Can't you see that when you say "yes" to every little interest group - you end up in a situation where nobody wins? Because that's what has happened to the AM band.

One point where we actually do agree is that an alternate spectrum would be a great option for a lot of these stations. I'd really love to see that happen and to have the AM dial dominated by a few big 50 kw signals that would be clear - and free to use that IBOC technology. At this point though, that seems to be a pipe dream.

To borrow a political quote from the early days of the civil-rights struggle: "seperate but equal is not equal".

Any solution for the AM band is going to have to include EVERYBODY. You can't have a solution where the majority of the small operations, and mom & pops literally get evicted and shoved off on to some other piece of spectrum, while an elite handful of clear channel flamethower stations are the only ones to get to stay on Ancient Modulation......oops......I meant AM.

Either everybody stays on AM, or everybody goes. It's the only fair way.

Thinking like this is how we ended up with the AM band being turned into one big graveyard. Better for all to sink into the morass equally than for some to survive. I just can't agree with this line of reasoning. If there was a way to open a new band higher up the spectrum, that would be the better place for most of the smaller stations. Frankly, the quality of AM radio - for technical reasons - is what's killing it. But, it can be saved by limiting the number of signals. That would permit more wideband broadcasting, actually allowing this IBOC technology to work. As it stands now, that attempt is a failure.

As for the rest of this line of reasoning, perhaps we need some radio Darwinism to kick in here. We do not need all of the stations that clutter the dial. Those that can't be successful shouldn't be. A sad but true fact.

And, who ever said that a doller a holler biblethumper is equal to the likes of WABC or WBZ or WBBM? Or that it should be? Should we handicap the popular stations that serve hundreds of thousands of listeners for the sake of those (in the same market) who serve <200 people? It may not be popular, but I have to come down on the "no" side. If their messages need to get out so damn badly, let 'em stream on the internet instead.

If you want AM to be viable, this is the route that you need to take. People need to wake up and smell the coffee on this one.....

 

[Play Freebird]

You seem to want to take this to a political discussion, hence your absurd comment about WPHT. WPHT and KYW are two signals that should be protected, as they were in the old allocations. It has nothing to do with format, though it can be tempting to make decisions based on this. For example, WPHE is based in Phoenixville and has a Spanish gospel format. And, it probably only has about 3 listeners (on a good day). They certainly DO NOT serve the residents of Phoenixville and the surrounding area. Yes, it would be tempting to put them on the list for potentially cleaning up the band. But, they're also a daytimer - so they don't actually contribute to polluting the band at night. During the day, they're properly spaced from their neighbors. So, they aren't part of the problem. My apologies Freebird, but I'm not jumping at your various attempts to bait me.

I wasn't trying to bait you or anyone else -- my comments were just a "tongue in cheek" illustration of the mess that would likely arise if the FCC decided to go ahead and thin the AM herd.

Would these decisions be made solely on the basis of licensed facilities (giving Class A stations automatic preference), first local service, heritage, niche programming, politics, ratings, or what? Would ex-licensees be compensated financially? What would happen to underperforming "blowtorch" signals like WWKB?

 

[flytrap]

I have a better idea. Check the ratings of the station. If the station barely shows up in the ratings book its obvious nobody is listening. Shut them down. I gare rone tea some of these bottom feeders would try to put on some decent programming so they wouldn't lose their license. I'm sick of every big city AM with nothing but colon blow and preachers. Or worse yet, Preachers who sell Colon Blow.

 

[KB1OKL]

Thinking like this is how we ended up with the AM band being turned into one big graveyard. Better for all to sink into the morass equally than for some to survive. I just can't agree with this line of reasoning. If there was a way to open a new band higher up the spectrum, that would be the better place for most of the smaller stations. Frankly, the quality of AM radio - for technical reasons - is what's killing it. But, it can be saved by limiting the number of signals. That would permit more wideband broadcasting, actually allowing this IBOC technology to work. As it stands now, that attempt is a failure.

If AM could be broadcast in wideband again there would be no need for IBOC, wideband AM sounds great, I thought it sounded better than FM, was less processed. I remember listening to it when I was a kid on the big console radios which were usually relegated to the attics and cellars, I would offer the owners 5 or 10 bucks for them, most were glad to get rid of those treasures and give them to me. I have several tube receivers now which have 8 and 16 Khz filters on them and can actually pick up the different BBC stations direct from England occasionally by phasing out the dominant US station and they sound great, now that is real DXing. They broadcast much wider and with less modulation than US stations.

 

[Play Freebird]

I have a better idea. Check the ratings of the station. If the station barely shows up in the ratings book its obvious nobody is listening. Shut them down. I gare rone tea some of these bottom feeders would try to put on some decent programming so they wouldn't lose their license. I'm sick of every big city AM with nothing but colon blow and preachers. Or worse yet, Preachers who sell Colon Blow.

In Buffalo, the latest trend shows little 1 kW WWWS on 1400 (the original WYSL) with twice the 12+ share of 50 kW fulltimer WWKB. So, if it comes down to ratings alone, which facility would be given priority?

I expect to see WECK 1230 in suburban Cheektowaga rise over the next year, now that it has a caring owner. Back in the '80s, WECK generated some impressive numbers for a "Class IV" facility -- peaking at a number four rank in the Buffalo market.

 

[Savage]

Right you are, Freebird - WECK billed over $1 million gross with a BCF of almost a half-mil back in the early 90s. I helped appraise the station for prospective purchasers. I saw the P/L and tax returns. That little dump was a money factory.

Not bad for a graveyard standalone suburban AM in a declining rust-belt market - with a grounded shunt-fed antenna, operating then at less than 1kw (IIRC it was 500 day, 250 night at the time.)

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I'd say the GE SuperRadio is enjoying a much longer run.

Sadly - the defective tuning potentiometers have killed the product. It is discontinued. Replacement of the defective pot is possible, but time consuming and expensive.

 

[BRNout]

I fully recognize that my suggestion would be pretty difficult to implement politically, but doing something like that would help to clear up the band. As it stands now, it's way too crowded. After decades of mismanagement by FCC, the AM band's chickens are really coming home to roost with the rollout of IBOC.

Sadly, past history would indicate that moving signals is really tough to get done. Look at what happened when they opened up the X-band. It is underused and is empty as often as not. That opportunity seems to have been frittered away. Yet the graveyard frequencies are bursting at the seams. And, the clear channels are being knocked around left and right. That's not good for them and its not good for those at their fringes.

All that being said, I do like what I'm seeing with some daytime AMs being allowed to simulcast on low-power FM signals. It's an encouraging trend. Now, if only they'd spread FM down to the Japanese frequencies (down around TV channels 5 and 6) - we'd really have something!

 

[Play Freebird]

All that being said, I do like what I'm seeing with some daytime AMs being allowed to simulcast on low-power FM signals. It's an encouraging trend. Now, if only they'd spread FM down to the Japanese frequencies (down around TV channels 5 and 6) - we'd really have something!

I'll bet if WURD were offered a 250 watt FM translator on a tall building in center city Philadelphia as a quid pro quo for shutting down the 900 AM facility, they would jump at the opportunity. 106.5 almost fits on the One Liberty Place spire without causing prohibited overlap to the co-channel stations in Baltimore or Bloomsburg, although about 5 dB additional protection would be needed towards WBBO. A 40 dB U/D ratio to the local second-adjacents on 106.1 and 106.9 shouldn't be a problem at street level.

From this site assuming 200 watts omni, population within the predicted 60 dBu contour is well over 2 million.

Someone will eventually build a translator on this channel after the pile of MX-ed applications (filed during the 2003 translator window) is thinned out, but don't expect anything to happen soon.