Could a "deep cuts" station survive?

[aaronk]

...stations, taking cash from the so-called Independent Promotors, who gave 'Promotional Support'. It was in the news a few years ago.

Now I see what you mean. Having a station that plays more songs won't necessarily fix that problem, though.

The young people aren't using radio.

Are you defining "young people" as 18-34 or teens or younger? In the history of radio, very few stations have ever really targeted younger than 18. As far as 18-34 numbers go, has there been a significant decrease in the number of people listening? As of last year, Arbitron reported about 94% of this demo still listens to the radio on a weekly basis, which isn't all that bad in my opinion.

Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.

I agree 100% with you on this. What can radio do to reinvent itself and draw more listeners? Or at least get listeners to stay longer? The ratings say that playing a larger library doesn't work, so what can we do? Personally, I think the answer is more about the content that goes between the records.

 

[Albert19X]

I agree 100% with you on this. What can radio do to reinvent itself and draw more listeners? Or at least get listeners to stay longer? The ratings say that playing a larger library doesn't work, so what can we do? Personally, I think the answer is more about the content that goes between the records.

But haven't the numbers proven fart noises and sexual innuendos are what the public wants?

 

[Scotpfv]

Simple answer to the question is, probably not. Seems that the general rule in radio today is play what people are familiar with. Going with the lowest commen denominater does bring in the cash.

I might be an odd one out here but I prefer to hear something by a band I have never heard before. Another reason why KTCU is the only station I listen to on a regular basis.

Deep cuts is a great idea and I (and most other radio or music fans) would listen. But I'm not sure if it could get over to the casual listener. I wish it could.

 

[grantchester]

Ratings don't prove that people will only listen to the 'commercial hits' foisted upon radio by the recording industry.
Programmers test only a few hundred songs. Those are songs THEY are familar with. Once I asked a Classic Rock programmer to test a Santana song he wasn't familiar with. It tested well. He played it, a lot. The ratings were good.
Now think about this: 'Linus and Lucy' by Vince Geraldi, 'Sparticus Ballet' by Katchaturian, 'Theme from the Magnificent 7', 'Bolero' by Ravel, 'William Tell Overture' by Rossini, 'Little Houses' by Pete Seeger', and just about anything Danny Elfman has written. You've heard it, it's familiar, but it doesn't fit some preconcieved notion of a genre, so it's not tested and certainly not considered for airplay on a commercial music station.

Here's my point: Placed in the proper context, a musically valid composition of any style can be entertaining to a mass audience. Programmers need to think beyond their charts and playlists, and consider how people actually relate to radio, to radio personalities and to the music they hear on the radio. That's what is needed to re-energise a declining medium. And don't tell me people won't respond to something unfamiliar... How did all those top 40 hits get to be popular in the first place, if people just want to hear the same old thing?
g

ps- aaron: playing a wide variety of music aimed at pleasing the listener is not possible when a programmer is beholden to a record industry. They want their 'Song Du Jour', 'Flavor of the Month' in heavy rotation. That's why they've always paid to bribe the programmers. More songs would break that feed-back loop, and open things up to more variety.

pps- rover: It's not the cult of personality, it's the context created by the personality that makes the unfamiliar viable. The personality gives 'Entrance' to the music, to EN-TRANCE the listener.

 

[davideduardo]

Programmers test only a few hundred songs. Those are songs THEY are familar with.

I've tested up to 1600 songs on one test, and about 3000 differnt songs during one year for that operation. I've done dozens and dozens of over-a-thousand song tests. And every time we look for additional songs to play, and occasionally run the test on the air asking for "additional songs you would like to hear" with a score list in the newspaper.

 

[TheRover]

I don't understand why music radio has to be crammed into these little cubby-holes. I wish there was at least one station that played significant music without being limited to some era or genre. I'd love to have an informed announcer choosing things like Sousa and Bederbeck, Goodman and the Dorsey brothers. Crosby and Sinatra, T-bone Walker and Bob Wills. Tom Rush and Gordon Lightfoot. Beatles, Springsteen, Who, and Bubblepuppy. CSNY and Pentangle. The Incredible String Band and Beck. St Martin of the Fields and the Acadamy of Ancient Music. Herbert Von Karajan, Shastakovitch and Nevill Mariner.
Commerical music and the 'charted hit' system have been proven to be corrupt for DECADES. Why are the top hits the only choices? Can't anyone tell the difference between significant music and dreck?

If you want it, then go sell it. Fact of the matter is, you can't. Radio is a for-profit business. The Bone tried "deed cuts" for a while. And along with everything else they do, it failed. Nobody wants to hear them. If there was a market for "deep cuts" then it would be a format. Go to Sirius, get an IPOD, and rock out. You're never going to hear it on broadcast radio. They're in the business of playing hits.

Well, then, I'd like to see the tables turned, with all the people that like to hear "the hits", being insturcted to simply go put those 200-500 hits on an iPod, and Rock Out..... while the "other" 5,000-10,000 songs worth listening to, are played on terrestrial radio.

At one time Rock Radio did advance beyond a 7th Grade "level" of playlists. But now, for the sake of ratings, and advertising dollars.... an artificial brick wall is there to keep most of what is programmed, at, or below that level. THAT is weird !

So much for Culture, by way of the great medium of Radio.
They Sold Their Souls for Rock 'n' Roll Ratings and Cume.

 

[aaronk]

Placed in the proper context, a musically valid composition of any style can be entertaining to a mass audience.

Agreed, but the context we have to work with is the FM band where everyone has preset buttons and can quickly punch those buttons to find out which station is playing the best song. I do it just like everyone else. A Danny Elfman song can be very entertaining to a mass audience who is listening to it during the scene of a movie; however, if it were on the radio and I had those buttons in front of me, I'd be flipping the station.

Programmers need to think beyond their charts and playlists, and consider how people actually relate to radio, to radio personalities and to the music they hear on the radio. That's what is needed to re-energise a declining medium.

Yes, exactly, that's why I think it is the content that you put in between the records---something the listener can relate to, whatever it might be.

And don't tell me people won't respond to something unfamiliar... How did all those top 40 hits get to be popular in the first place, if people just want to hear the same old thing?

This is a very valid point. I think people will respond to something unfamiliar if it is something they like. That's why the people who run radio stations do those music tests. They want to find out what people are responding to, and they don't want to play songs that end up at the bottom of the tests.

There's another thing to consider about this point, though. Current-based stations can play the occasional new and unfamiliar songs, because younger audiences want to discover new music. By contrast, older listeners who use gold-based stations don't tune in to discover new and unfamiliar oldies, unless they are music fanatics like I am. I love discovering "new" old songs, but I don't think the average person does.

More songs would break that feed-back loop, and open things up to more variety.

In theory this sounds great. I'm all for a station that plays more variety, because I can't stand hearing the same songs over and over again (unless they are my favorites, of course). We just need some proof that this actually works.

 

[aaronk]

Well, then, I'd like to see the tables turned, with all the people that like to hear "the hits", being insturcted to simply go put those 200-500 hits on an iPod, and Rock Out..... while the "other" 5,000-10,000 songs worth listening to, are played on terrestrial radio.

This would be excellent for radio-loving people who are really into music! But if all those people who only wanted to hear the 200-500 hits suddenly went away, what would happen to listenership?

At one time Rock Radio did advance beyond a 7th Grade "level" of playlists. But now, for the sake of ratings, and advertising dollars.... an artificial brick wall is there to keep most of what is programmed, at, or below that level. THAT is weird !

So much for Culture, by way of the great medium of Radio.
They Sold Their Souls for Rock 'n' Roll Ratings and Cume.

I'm honestly too young to remember when radio played a large variety of hits. (I'm just under 30.) If that did exist at one time, I'm sure a competitor quickly figured out that they could crush that format by playing fewer, better testing songs. Once you have competition, it's always about ratings and cume. How else can you make money?

The problem is that there are a very limited number of frequencies in any given market, and running a station is very expensive. It just doesn't seem very feasible to create a station catered to a very, very small niche market.

 

[Albert19X]

I'm honestly too young to remember when radio played a large variety of hits. (I'm just under 30.) If that did exist at one time, I'm sure a competitor quickly figured out that they could crush that format by playing fewer, better testing songs. Once you have competition, it's always about ratings and cume. How else can you make money?

The problem is that there are a very limited number of frequencies in any given market, and running a station is very expensive. It just doesn't seem very feasible to create a station catered to a very, very small niche market.

It actually did exist in Dallas for a brief time in the 60's. Gordon MacLendan wasn't sure what to do with his new FM frequency KNUS and he just let his DJ's sort of run wild with it. They played the long songs on records, mixed Rock and Folk and Pop and Classical. I was in grade school at the time and it marked my transition from KLIF's AM Top 40 kiddie radio to adult FM stereo radio. Eventually, MacLendan imposed a Top 40 format on KNUS but for a brief period the radio station was truly an alternative to tightly formatted corporate programming. I've been looking for a station like that ever since.

 

[Jackologist]

Just like an AA meeting...you seem to get exactly what you need when you come here.

As far as a DEEP CUTS discussion goes, you MUST read this article from Sean Ross

http://www.edisonresearch.com/home/archives/2008/08/whats_at_the_bottom_of_the_mus.php

My takeaway? Let the experts in each market craft the approach and pick the tunes. The people that have been involved 35-45 years or so. But these are precisely the people the industry is jettisoning.

In a WIMAX world of signals from everywhere with equal digital strength and distribution, your only weapon left will be passion and honesty. Respect for the music. Authenticity. The very things that the tally whores and CEO's can't grasp as they drive their stock to sub-sawbuck levels.

 

[critic319]

My takeaway? Let the experts in each market craft the approach and pick the tunes. The people that have been involved 35-45 years or so.

Exactly!

 

[TheRover]

I'm honestly too young to remember when radio played a large variety of hits. (I'm just under 30.) If that did exist at one time, I'm sure a competitor quickly figured out that they could crush that format by playing fewer, better testing songs. Once you have competition, it's always about ratings and cume. How else can you make money?

The problem is that there are a very limited number of frequencies in any given market, and running a station is very expensive. It just doesn't seem very feasible to create a station catered to a very, very small niche market.

It actually did exist in Dallas for a brief time in the 60's. Gordon MacLendan wasn't sure what to do with his new FM frequency KNUS and he just let his DJ's sort of run wild with it. They played the long songs on records, mixed Rock and Folk and Pop and Classical. I was in grade school at the time and it marked my transition from KLIF's AM Top 40 kiddie radio to adult FM stereo radio. Eventually, MacLendan imposed a Top 40 format on KNUS but for a brief period the radio station was truly an alternative to tightly formatted corporate programming. I've been looking for a station like that ever since.

EXACTLY !

Are stations really that expensive to run......

They are if count the cost it takes to initally purchase one.....

But beyond that.... It's a circular arguement in a way....

Because we have lots of sales and marketing folks - - - We need a HUGE budget...

Becuase we have a HUGE budget - - - we needs lots of sales and market folks to support that . . .

 

[Dndsh237]

Are stations really that expensive to run......

YES!!! VERY EXPENSIVE!!!!

In addition to staffing, they have to pay for all that electricity the transmitters use, the lease space for their studios and music royalty paymnts if music is aired. That's just for starters!

 

[Dr. o Fun]

In the same vein as a deep cuts format, could a Classic Rock station survive by expanding their play list with deeper cuts?

For example

keep Yes' "Roundabout" but also add "Starship Trooper" or "Perpetual Change"
keep Tull's "Aqualung" but also add "My God" or "Wind Up"
keep the Eagles' "Hotel California" but also add "Wasted Time" or "The Last Resort"

FYI, each of the deep cuts above come from the same album as the hit.

Am I on to something or is my taste of music more expansive than most?

dr

 

[Jackologist]

Based on my experience, here's what happens when a pro-depth PD gets the gig:

He lives with the tight listed playlist for awhile, but then begins to experiment with some depth tracks in features and in randomly scheduled song slots.

He's smart about it, too. If he plays a depth track, he precedes it with powers and follows it with equally strong (testing) titles. The station has achieved a nice flavor of coolness with safety, without the recklessness of freeform randomness.

The jocks love it, and let him know the listener calls are all positive...they love it - good move, boss!!

One day, the GM pops in and asks about a song from last night....

"I was out to dinner with my wife, who is a big fan of your classic rock station, and she was surprised by a song she didn't know...what was it?"

You happily answer, thinking that you'll help him impress his wife with the creativity and musical acumen of the station, but instead you get the speech on familiarity and the "if my wife doesn't know it, we shouldn't play it" dictate.

Not surprisingly, a day or two later comes the call from the Group VP/Programming or the Consultant...who will ask:

"What's with this group of strange titles you're playing?"

And you respond: "These are some depth tracks that I've popped in for spice in special features"

Consultant: " I see....did we test them?"

PD: "Well, no...but these are great tracks this market will respond to"

Consultant: "How do you know that?"

PD: "My jocks tell me that the phones are hot for this stuff or I played them in (market) at my last gig."

Consultant: "I see. So, you're willing to gamble the $40,000 a year the company gives you for research against the word of your jocks for a few untested, unproven, unknowable titles?....OK...it's your career."

Many have received Jesus in much the same way.

End of depth discussion.

 

[TheRover]

In the same vein as a deep cuts format, could a Classic Rock station survive by expanding their play list with deeper cuts?

For example

keep Yes' "Roundabout" but also add "Starship Trooper" or "Perpetual Change"
keep Tull's "Aqualung" but also add "My God" or "Wind Up"
keep the Eagles' "Hotel California" but also add "Wasted Time" or "The Last Resort"

FYI, each of the deep cuts above come from the same album as the hit.

Am I on to something or is my taste of music more expansive than most?

dr

I would turn off the station as soon as Roundabout began playing... so... I souldn't hear the "deep" tracks you're suggesting....

My propostion...is that a Rock station that would not play the tired tested hits at all, except on rare occasions, would have a loyal audience, enough to live off of....

And the rest of the easily amused humans... could just decide which Classic Rock station had the beat contests, blue humor or give-aways... as they're all playing basically the same tested cr-ap.

 

[Dr. o Fun]

Based on my experience, here's what happens when a pro-depth PD gets the gig...

Brutal but points well taken. Guess I'll try to find a fledgling ma and pa rock station to program -- if there are any left!

dr

 

[mic1]

The answer is what many seem to agree with ......unfortunately : NO .You can sprinke your mx log with a deep cut per hour I suppose. I love Led Zep. Would love to hear Achilles Last stand but will the average listener stick around for that? This format is all about the MUSIC. Attitude & lifestyle too. Being a musician helps . Would love to hear deep cuts,however, we prgram for the masses . I can go on but I think you understand. Massage your music logs for flow tempo & era. This is very critical and often overlooked by many MD's in this format. If you know selector,chances are your stations overall sound will get noticed . Don't get me started on imaging. If I hear one more (swoosh movie drop,ying yang) after every song ..Oops..here I go again

 

[johnqdoe]

nope

In the same vein as a deep cuts format, could a Classic Rock station survive by expanding their play list with deeper cuts?

For example

keep Yes' "Roundabout" but also add "Starship Trooper" or "Perpetual Change"
keep Tull's "Aqualung" but also add "My God" or "Wind Up"
keep the Eagles' "Hotel California" but also add "Wasted Time" or "The Last Resort"

FYI, each of the deep cuts above come from the same album as the hit.

Am I on to something or is my taste of music more expansive than most?

dr

I would turn off the station as soon as Roundabout began playing... so... I souldn't hear the "deep" tracks you're suggesting....

My propostion...is that a Rock station that would not play the tired tested hits at all, except on rare occasions, would have a loyal audience, enough to live off of....
And the rest of the easily amused humans... could just decide which Classic Rock station had the beat contests, blue humor or give-aways... as they're all playing basically the same tested cr-ap.

 

[TheRover]

The answer is what many seem to agree with ......unfortunately : NO .You can sprinke your mx log with a deep cut per hour I suppose. I love Led Zep. Would love to hear Achilles Last stand but will the average listener stick around for that? This format is all about the MUSIC. Attitude & lifestyle too. Being a musician helps . Would love to hear deep cuts, however, we program for the masses . I can go on but I think you understand. Massage your music logs for flow tempo & era. This is very critical and often overlooked by many MD's in this format. If you know selector, chances are your stations overall sound will get noticed . Don't get me started on imaging. If I hear one more (swoosh movie drop,ying yang) after every song ..Oops..here I go again

Hey, I'm a Zep fan.... but I would NOT like to hear Achilles Last Stand. Anymore than I would like to hear Nugent's "Stranglehold". Achilles Last Stand has just gotten too much credit from all of the come latelys. But that's just taste.

I'd rather hear "For Your Life" or "Hots On For Nowhere" or even "Candy Store Rock".
Those are all medium length songs. But who are we kidding .....

Classic Rock radio by defintion is entrenched in playing the hits, especially songs that that radio "made" into hits.... Their own Circular Argeument has no room for entry.

It is a Closed System. If you want free-er formattted radio, you'll have to go outside the the Land of the Free....