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Critique of Conservative Talk

E

EbolaMonkey

Guest
An interesting article from former WTMJ news director and APD Dan Shelley. One look behind the curtain:

Conservative talk show hosts would receive daily talking points e-mails from the Bush White House, the Republican National Committee and, during election years, GOP campaign operations. They’re not called talking points, but that’s what they are. I know, because I received them, too. During my time at WTMJ, Charlie would generally mine the e-mails, then couch the daily message in his own words. Midday talker Jeff Wagner would be more likely to rely on them verbatim. But neither used them in their entirety, or every single day.

The full story,
http://www.milwaukeemagazine.com/currentIssue/full_feature_story.asp?NewMessageID=24046&pf=yes
 
I found it interesting a couple of years ago to have the name "Grover Norquist" called to my attention. Do a little research. If there are "talking points" lists circulating, they may have Grover's fingerprints on them.

Start with Google.

You may have to read a couple of books by people more liberal than you normally like to read, but you'll find Grover out there somewhere.
 
Absolutely a great piece, which truly shows the hypocracy that has become the norm in right-leaning radio. I wonder if a WBAP has had these similar problems in the backend that we're aware of??
 
Yeah, Slam, MSLSD, NBC et al would never do anything like that. Right.

As Bryan Adams sang, "It cuts both ways."
 
I'm not a big fan of right-wing radio, but this article was so chock full of inconsistencies and broad generalizations, I stopped even writing a point by point response to it.

Here are just two glaring examples:

1. WTMJ is "one of the largest and most successful news/talk radio stations in America." I'll pause to allow the laughter die down. Milwaukee is the #36 market in the US. If you're trying to pass yourself off as some sort of martyr-ish servant of the journalist ideal, it might be wise not to try and pass this off as WABC.

2. The writer creates two categories of conservative talk tactics, one of which is "You Know What Would Happen If", criticizing right-winger talkers for using the tactic of "You know what would happen if a DEMOCRAT did that?"

The tactic magically becomes virtuous and majestic later in the article when he FLAT OUT uses it himself:

"To amuse myself while listening to a talk show, I would ask myself what the host would say if the situation were reversed. What if alleged D.C. Madam client Sen. David Vitter had been a Democrat? Would the reaction of talk show hosts have been so quiet you could hear crickets chirping? Hardly."

When you do it, it's bad. When I do it, it's for the benefit of all mankind.
Isn't that pretty much the definition of a hypocrite?

Truthfully, I'm not insensitive to the base issue of his article. That right-wing radio has become a cause of concern in terms of the totality and nature of voices heard on the bandwidth. But this article is SO filled with an ax to grind, inconsistencies, and self-aggrandizing anecdotal mudslinging, it does a disservice to the root of the problem: How do you serve up opposing viewpoints in a way that listeners clamor to like they do this right-wing tubthumping?

I could have responded to this article for pages. But, I have things to do. You have things to do. Let's just be glad this guy is out of radio so he can be the Martyr Of The Biggest Station In Milwaukee. Where all that hot news comes down. "This just in...cow escapes barn and wanders onto highway..."
 
What the article doesn't mention is the growing audience of conservative radio.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, hippie! lol
 
I'm not a big fan of right-wing radio, but this article was so chock full of inconsistencies and broad generalizations, I stopped even writing a point by point response to it.

I think the article is perfect at exposing what goes on with 99 percent of conservative talk hosts around the country. It's not an article about Rush Limbaugh. Probably not even about Mark Davis (although both of them lean on the argumentation tactics described in the article). For Rush and Mark, much of their act is instinctive and comes quite naturally to them. Whether you agree with them or not, they are talented radio people.

What the link exposes is the Mike Gallagher's and Hugh Hewitt's of the world. And all of the other copy cat, cookie cutter hosts in local markets (like Milwaukee), who learned how to do "conservative talk," not how to do "radio." Most PD's look for hosts who fit the description of the article. They don't know how to find talent that knows how to do radio first, but with a special knack for talk.

Feel free to disagree.
 
Number one, I have been a political talk host. I have no leanings, but Rush was my lead-in. I have never used a talking point. I go directly from the newspaper and major news outlets for my info. Also, I'm currently the fill-in host for a nationally syndicated show out of Dallas here. Same thing. And the person I fill-in for does not use talking points.

I believe a lot probably do, and we get them from everyone to be sure. But 99 percent? I don't think so.

Additionally, EVERYBODY sends their talking points. Not just conservative groups. They're all out their trying to exploit the system. And more power to them.

Secondly, this guy I can't take seriously after comments like "WTMJ is one of the largest and most successful news/talk stations in the United States" and other flimsy, inaccurate statements. Even being sympathetic to the root problem, I can't take someone's input if they are off the mark so constantly.

Plus, in the article, he paints himself as some sort of altruistic keeper of the flame of logic, fairness in justice--wandering through a sea of lesser people who are all self-absorbed, petty and mean-spirited. All the while, he actually indulges in some of the same practices that he openly criticizes.

So while I wish there were some way to have discourse about how to serve up political discussion that will have the same appeal the conservative talkers seem to enjoy right now, this guy's cred is pretty much shot because of his approach and his indulgence in his own hubris. Plus, if it took him till Katrina to figure out there was a problem? Well, I'll just let that stand on its own. In the biz for 20 years and just now a light goes on about the one-sided nature of right wing talk? Sheesh.

Limbaugh was around a few weeks before Katrina, if memory serves.
 
scottythecynic said:
Yeah, Slam, MSLSD, NBC et al would never do anything like that. Right.

As Bryan Adams sang, "It cuts both ways."

I agree, theres a left-ended cut as well..I guess I come from the school of thought that journalism should be neutral, in the style of murrow or pyle, and only report the straight facts. When it comes to talk radio , I also agree it should be even handed. The post-fairness doctrine ear of radio has pretty much become a right-tilting bully pulpit.

Letterman, you have to agree that quite a few local/regional/national talk hosts, esp. on the AM side, have been "less than just" when it comes to people with different political leanings. I can think of one such host in this city (name withheld) who has disrespected or belittled callers on the air who disagree with his views. If we're going to be even-handed, I suggest they put away the RNC talking points, drudge report postings and learn how to defend an argurment with their own wits about them, same goes with someone with a left tilt, put away the Huffington or DailyKos access and defend your beliefs accordingly. I know it would make it a helluva lot more interesting listen.
 
But 99 percent? I don't think so.

Exaggerated language. Not meant to be exact. Also not meant to specifically refer to conservative talking points. But I don't blame you for taking it that way. Consider it clarified.

I linked to the article because I think there's interesting information in it. I agree that the writer doesn't make a great case throughout. I'd say the article is more valuable for some of its anecdotes than for the case it makes.

Secondly, this guy I can't take seriously after comments like "WTMJ is one of the largest and most successful news/talk stations in the United States" and other flimsy, inaccurate statements. Even being sympathetic to the root problem, I can't take someone's input if they are off the mark so constantly.

Plus, in the article, he paints himself as some sort of altruistic keeper of the flame of logic, fairness in justice--wandering through a sea of lesser people who are all self-absorbed, petty and mean-spirited. All the while, he actually indulges in some of the same practices that he openly criticizes.

Here you use an argumentation fallacy typical of the talk radio genre. You point to a couple of problems with a person's point of view and then argue the broader case that the person has nothing of value to offer -- because their case was poor in the couple of places you mention.

You'll see this tactic used often against nearly any claim in the "liberal media." Talk show hosts and their listeners feel no need to answer a specific point if they can claim the point originated in the liberal media and thus needs no answer for that reason alone. Some liberals dismissed Linda Tripp out of hand, simply because she was openly conservative. Regardless that her facts appeared to be true. Some conservatives jumped on Mark Felt, because he helped bring down one of their own. Even though his whistle blowing was accurate.

If push comes to shove, I doubt we disagree on this that much. I see more value to the article than you do. That's about it.
 
Oh, please. That's not a tactic. That's human nature.

If someone tells you--right out of the box--that the sky is brown and oranges are blue, you have a right to question the validity of everything that follows.

While I agree that he a couple of valid points, his wrapping himself in a shroud of perfection while slagging his co-workers is just unprofessional and a clear ax was had to grind.
 
Letterman, you have to agree that quite a few local/regional/national talk hosts, esp. on the AM side, have been "less than just" when it comes to people with different political leanings. I can think of one such host in this city (name withheld) who has disrespected or belittled callers on the air who disagree with his views. If we're going to be even-handed, I suggest they put away the RNC talking points, drudge report postings and learn how to defend an argurment with their own wits about them, same goes with someone with a left tilt, put away the Huffington or DailyKos access and defend your beliefs accordingly. I know it would make it a helluva lot more interesting listen.

I second that emotion.

And, the right wing talker I sometimes tune into during the morning hours--ahem, at the lower end of the dial and following UFO information--is one of the most intolerant persons I've ever heard on the air. Not hate speech or anything. Just completely intolerant of others to the point of stereotyping and bigotry.

To say nothing of his meager grasp of facts like how a bill becomes a law, and his habit of stammering and not being able to complete a single sentence without a plethora of "uh's" and restarts of his statements.

I say again that the question is how to put forth engaging radio with entertaining personalities WITHOUT all the right wing tubthumping. Because whether we like it or not, it has generated lots of listeners in lots of instances.

Given how centrist this country is, maybe there's a place for a flamboyant personality with an engaging manner who is more into "we all know what is right and what is wrong on the simplest of human terms" rather than "we all know what a Republican or a Democrat would say about a particular issue."
 
If someone tells you--right out of the box--that the sky is brown and oranges are blue, you have a right to question the validity of everything that follows.

Question? Sure. But that's not what you did. And I'm not so sure he said the sky is brown. He inflated the level of Milwaukee talk radio in a Milwaukee magazine. Big deal. Every market has an inflated view of its own product.

And "a shroud of perfection"? Really?
 
You forgot to mention his doing exactly what he criticized talk hosts for doing.

There are facts in the world. Water freezes at 32 degrees and such.

And then there are perceptions. He showed, throughout the article, that his perceptions bolstered his martyr-ish view of himself as an arbiter of truth, beauty, justice, and journalism in a sea of unprofessional, mean-spirited, egomaniacal people bent on a ideology--who he had to shepherd into broadcast success.

Maybe in your world someone in the 36th market conjures their station into "one of the largest and most successful news/talk stations in the United States" but I started in Indianapolis, ranked lower than Milwaukee, and we never had illusions that we were WCBS, nor did we puff ourselves up that way. Had anyone done so, they'd have been met with the same attitude toward the originator of that hilarity.

1. They don't know what talking about. 2. They really think a lot of themselves. 3. They're a buffoon who is not to be taken seriously.

And sorry if you don't think I'm allowed to judge the voracity of an article based on totally laughable self-important statements like that, but then again, I'm into reality.
 
OK, you asked for it, you got it.

Here's the author describing the "tactic" of information spin that right-wing talkers use. Because the 36th market guy is such a spin expert.

Using the first strategy, a host will describe something a liberal has said or done that conservatives disagree with, but for which the liberal has not been widely criticized, and then say, “You know what would happen if a conservative had said (or done) that? He (or she) would have been filleted by the ‘liberal media.’ ” This is particularly effective because it’s a two-fer, simultaneously reinforcing the notion that conservatives are victims and that “liberals” are the enemy.

Now here's what he does later in the "article":

To amuse myself while listening to a talk show, I would ask myself what the host would say if the situation were reversed. What if alleged D.C. Madam client Sen. David Vitter had been a Democrat? Would the reaction of talk show hosts have been so quiet you could hear crickets chirping? Hardly.

Or what if former Rep. Mark Foley had been a Democrat? Would his pedophile-like tendencies have been excused as a “prank” or mere “overfriendly e-mails?” Not on the life of your teenage son.

Suppose Al Gore was president and ordered an invasion of Iraq without an exit strategy. Suppose this had led to the deaths of more than 4,000 U.S. troops and actually made that part of the world less stable. Would talk show hosts have dismissed criticism of that war as unpatriotic? No chance.

Or imagine that John Kerry had been president during Hurricane Katrina and that his administration’s rescue and rebuilding effort had been horribly botched. Would talk show hosts have branded him a great president? Of course not.


Mr. Hypo, meet Mr. Crite. Four examples deep. Oh, Dan just sits from on high, looking down on all us foolish mortals in amusement. Why indulging in highly hypocritical behavior, of course.

Want more? Goooooood.

Here he is fighting for truth, justice, and the American way--and the movie ends up all happy because the evil radio host came to him hat in hand (as usual, he is quick to point out) and groveled at his feet...

One day during a very bad snowstorm, I walked into the studio during a commercial break and suggested to Charlie that he start talking about it rather than whatever conservative topic he’d been discussing. Charlie assumed, as he usually did in such situations, that I was being critical of his topic. In reaction, he unplugged his head phones, stood up and told me that I might as well take over the show because he wasn’t going to change his topic. I was able to quickly strike a bargain before the end of the break. He agreed to take a few calls about the storm, but if it didn’t a strike a nerve with callers, he could return to his original topic.

The snowstorm was the topic of the rest of his show that day. And afterward, Charlie came to my office and admitted I’d been right. But we would go through scenarios such as this many times through the years.


Need another? No problem. Here's one that shows how bright he is. Let's say Limbaugh hit the scene BIGTIME in '93. (I know he was on the air before that, but I'm referring to the avalanche of notoriety he got around this time. EX: The National Review Called Him "The Leader Of Conservative Principles" on their cover around this time.) Took this GENIUS till 2005 to figure out something was a little askew with the right wing talker phenomenon. Wow. Talk about flying blind. Here he is coming to his catharsis:

It was Katrina, finally, that made me truly see the light. Until then, 10 years into my time at TMJ, while I might have disagreed with some stands the hosts took, I did think there were grounds for their constant criticism of the media. I had convinced myself that the national media had an intrinsic bias that was, at the very least, geographical if not ideological, to which talk radio could provide an alternative.


Seems good at rationalization, self-importance, and mudslinging his co-workers, but looking at the world around him in terms of media doesn't seem to be his strong suit. A chimp with a head trauma who listened to Limbaugh ONCE in those years should have been able to discern a clear bias. Entertaining? Sure. Engaging? Of course. Unbiased? This guy wants to have his cake and eat it, too. If it took KATRINA to make him aware of this, I'm thinking he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

But maybe he's the coolest guy in market #36.

Next, the Martyr Of Milwaukee Talk Radio goes to station management with his idealistic, NEWLY DISCOVERED CONUMDRUM:

I went to Charlie and Jeff and told them my concerns. They waved me off. I went to Program Director Rick Belcher and told him I thought Charlie and Jeff had things terribly wrong. He disagreed. I was distraught. I felt I was actively participating in something so inconsistent with reality that even most conservative talk radio devotees would see this. But in a way, it was merely a more obvious example of how talk radio portrayed reality selectively.


Just figure that out after a dozen years, didja??

The next few paragraphs all start with "I." That says something. And they all serve just for Mr. Journalistic Integrity (after the lights were out for a dozen years) to pat himself on the back and put a boot to the groin of everyone else:

I was a dedicated program manager. I helped the hosts at my station do show prep by finding stories I knew would pique their interest and fire up their constituencies. I met with Charlie Sykes daily, about a half-hour before show time, to help him talk through topics before going on the air. Charlie is one of the smartest people I know, but he performs at his best with that kind of preparation.

I often defended Jeff Wagner from upset moderates and liberals in the community. Jeff’s a very good talk show host whose brilliance is overshadowed only by his stubbornness.

I helped our program directors try to find the right role for Mark Reardon, who, in my opinion, was always miscast (he wasn’t as right-wing as Sykes or Wagner and his job was switched several times). Ultimately, that miscasting helped his career, because WTMJ laid him off, after which he became a talk show star in St. Louis, a much larger market.

I worked with news and sports hosts, too – Robb Edwards, Jon Belmont, Ken Herrera, Jonathan Green, Len Kasper, Bill Michaels – to help them craft ways to sound human and “real” behind the microphone without violating the separation of church and state that existed between the station’s talk and news programming. Sometimes I succeeded. Sometimes I didn’t.


IF ONLY THOSE FOOLS HAD LISTENED!!!!!! Then Milwaukee would be safe, and pure, and wholesome and the talk radio world would again bloom anew, fresh and unblemished.

Lastly:

I left WTMJ with some regret, attracted by an offer to work in the cutting edge field of digital media at one of the nation’s largest news and entertainment conglomerates.

I guess if you just came to the conclusion maybe something was one-sided about right wing radio in 2005, you'd consider the world of digital media "cutting-edge."

As for "one of the nation's largest news and entertainment congomerates"? Well, we've seen what passes for "the nation's largest and most successful" with this back-stabbing, mud-slinging clown. I bet it's "Bob's Digital Media & Shrimp Shack."

And my final nugget here is that it's very, very, very, very interesting that Mr. Slag-My-Former-Coworkers-While-Bemoaning-A-Lack-Of-Fairness-And-Balance wrote something and NO ONE FROM THE STATION WAS ALLOWED TO REFUTE OR ADDRESS THESE ALLEGATIONS IN THE ARTICLE. Not even contacted or asked if these things really happened.

Seems fairness is a matter of convenience to "one of the largest and most successful anecdotal self-congratulators in the nation."
 
Seems good at rationalization, self-importance, and mudslinging his co-workers, but looking at the world around him in terms of media doesn't seem to be his strong suit ... Oh, Dan just sits from on high, looking down on all us foolish mortals in amusement ... I'm thinking he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. But maybe he's the coolest guy in market #36

Wait, this reminds me of something from that article:

"There has to be a bad guy against whom the host will emphatically defend those loyal listeners."

You kinda fit the formula, bro. You're defending the good posters here at Radio-Info against a straw boogyman who insulted your livelihood. Maybe his criticisms of the talk industry as a whole felt too familiar to you.

I think your reaction is more thin-skinned than reasonable or fair. Like I said, Shelley didn't write a bullet-proof article. No where near one. But there are some interesting and valid observations mixed in there.

If, as you say, you don't lean one political direction or the other, then most people are partisan from your vantage point. Given that, you should be used to reading stories where you detect an axe to grind, yet are still able to ferret out the useful information. The fact that you detected the axe shouldn't be all that newsworthy, should it?
 
For what it's worth, Letterman, I too laughed at the snowstorm story. Of course it's purpose was to make the author look good -- like the wise counselor to his hosts. I also thought Katrina was pretty late in the day for a light bulb moment.

But here's the deal. At the very beginning of the article he wrote:

"I first got into journalism because I thought I could make a difference."

From that point forward I knew what I was dealing with, and I graded on a curve. Frankly, I can't listen to political talk radio without similarly suspending my normally higher expectations for conversation, debate and discourse.
 
Point out the useful information in this article.

I didn't claim there was any useful information here. There isn't any.

Merely valid points. Meaning the obvious. Things most of us have known since Limbaugh hit the airwaves. Intuitively obvious to even the most casual of observers.

As for me defending anything, no. This is a message board. You're saying this guy is contributing some insights. He isn't. Not in my book. In yours? Fine. Say so. I'm allowed my opinion here.

Also, he has wrapped up his valid observations, as I have just demonstrated, in a constant stream of self-congratulation, couched in his view of himself as a tireless yet martyred vigilante fighting against a machine he cannot hope to defeat, while trashing his co-workers by name--with no chance of their refuting his claims. Something he considers "evil" when they do it on the radio, but virtuous and majestic when he does it in his mud-slinging article.

As for me sifting through cow patties so I can eat corn--sorry. If someone has 95% self-congratulation and fellow employee slagging as their ax to grind? People who do what I do know there's not going to be anything of intellectual worth in that pile of steaming mess. So please don't pretend you're Kreskin and tell me what I should be used to reading and doing.

Now, by YOUR own definition, you must be here to protect the board from me. Self-appointed and all? I guess, by your own definition, anyone refuting anything on this board FITS YOUR FORMULA.
 
EbolaMonkey said:
For what it's worth, Letterman, I too laughed at the snowstorm story. Of course it's purpose was to make the author look good -- like the wise counselor to his hosts. I also thought Katrina was pretty late in the day for a light bulb moment.

But here's the deal. At the very beginning of the article he wrote:

"I first got into journalism because I thought I could make a difference."

OK. Feud over. I busted out laughing my rear off at that. Does sound really Karen Valentine in Room 222, doesn't it?
 
1Letterman said:
the right wing talker I sometimes tune into during the morning hours--ahem, at the lower end of the dial and following UFO information--is one of the most intolerant persons I've ever heard on the air. Not hate speech or anything. Just completely intolerant of others to the point of stereotyping and bigotry.

He does despise Hillary. At least he says so when he talks about her every 5 minutes. I'd like to actually hear about another topic that is remotely interesting instead of his axe to grind with her. Thank God for the radio's seek button. I try to listen but the same thing over & over again, then the incessant traffic & commercial breaks run me insane.

"And we'll talk about that next. Right here on dah dahdahdah (freq) (callsign.)" ;D
 
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