DANCE MUSIC....OKAY PHILLY, YOU ARE NEXT!

[TonySantiago]

I can see why people say that music they don't like all sounds the same. I used to not like metal, but when I started listening to it, I realized that there are so many different styles of metal and they sound different. Before I listened to metal, I used to think it all sounded the same.
Same thing goes for dance by people who don't like it. Why do you think XM, Sirius, and Music Choice have multiple stations in the dance format? Not to mention all the Internet stations playing different varieties of dance. To people who hate dance music, disco and current dance sound the same, KTU and Pulse 87 sound the same. All we want is for ONE full-market FM dance station in Philly, playing the format that has the most mass-appeal out of its subgenres. There is a market for it, ask Brett who fills up clubs whenever Z88.9's there. Unfortunately, people back in the 70s and 80s found it cool to hate disco, and when those people started becoming in charge of radio stations, they eliminated the format. Most dance stations today have a loyal fanbase (there's a lot of people who barely get Pulse 87 or Z88.9, yet they choose to listen to those stations if they know about them because it plays music they like.) The limited signals don't allow for people to discover that they exist or that they like the music they play. In fact, there probably is only one major market dance station with a big signal...C-89.5 in Seattle, but they're non-commercial. Pulse 87 might be the second best, since it covers New York City itself well, even though it doesn't go far into the suburbs. Z88.9 is weak in Philly itself, and its transmitter is out in the pine barrens. Super 91.7 only covers 10 miles. Party 105 is also almost in the middle of nowhere, and only puts a 40 dBu signal into Connecticut, yet they have loyal fans in both Long Island and Connecticut. If a dance station is programmed well and has a full-market signal, it could get into the top 10, maybe even the top 5 12+. But no one wants to try it. Sounds like a good experiment for 97.5 to try if smooth jazz fails.

Post 100! WOO HOO! ;D

Spot on Nick! My gut feeling has always been that there is a crowd in Philadelphia that wants current rhythmic. I'm sure the fan base there treat Z88.9 and Super 91.7 the same way those in New York City "proper" treated Party 105 before Pulse 87 launched. There IS a following.

Well, let's see what Brett and Kris are doing down where you are! I trust them. And, really, it's just a matter of time before something commercial happens. Terrestrial radio is taking many hits as is with layoffs and firings. It's now time for them to come up with something creative and "outside the box", if as a business they want to exist.

 

[murcuryvapor]

There is a market for it, ask Brett who fills up clubs whenever Z88.9's there.

Numbers? Locations? Also, proof that the 'presence' is responsible for the bump, not marginal or status quo.

 

[Rockin Rob]

Let's face it, if there were a clamoring for a dance station, don't you think WISX 106.1 would be a runaway success? I hear them (not by choice, mind you) more POP ROCK product. To be honest, I'd label them more of a rhythmic-LEANING Hot AC. A tighter playlist than Ben FM, just with more of the old school pop rap. I don't see that hanging on, it will either become a full-fledged Hot AC (with a balance of rhythmic and pop) or just a wholesale flip. The reaction would have been "we like My 106, and will support it until we get a full-blown dance station". But, where are the fans of dance? *cues cricket sounds* Nope, they don't exist. 106 is the perfect barometer for the need of a dance station... and it falls well below the radar.

On the other hand, you say dance music will be the savior for terrestrial radio. Ummmm, yeah... just like HD? LOL!!!!!!

 

[TonySantiago]

On the other hand, you say dance music will be the savior for terrestrial radio.

Let's put it in these terms. Terrestrial radio NEEDS innovative programming...one that wants to GET people back onto radio. Pulse 87 is doing that. Don't believe me? Look at this link below....

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10409000/1/the-fm-radio-station-you-wont-find-on-fm.html

It can be dance, it can be other voids in your marketplace. It could be new formats not ventured on SD such as a "gay" outlet. Point is, radio is in trouble! Look at what happened with Clear Channel today as the investors who wanted to buy had backed out and their shares fell SHARPLY! NUMBERS SHMUMBERS...you gotta do something quick! You can't think "traditional" anymore. The technology out there is too fast and too quick to grab as many people as possible...leaving radio in the dust since they're just sticking to "safe"....which quite honestly, is no longer "safe".

Catering to 40+ year olders is NOT the sole answer. Innovative programming is. And yes, I DO feel dance is the "savior" only because it is something DIFFERENT than traditional CHR. Granted, some elements of CHR is in there...it NEEDS to be to attract new listeners. But in comparison to everything else offered, dance IS different....or let's change that...RHYTHMIC.

So go on.....keep on laughing at me. It will be VERY interesting to see what happens in the near future when what I am pushing actually happens and ratings are at or near the top in the big markets. Then we'll see who laughs, and most likely it will be ME doing the "told ya so!"

One thing I've definitely learned about radio.....you have to possess that degree of arrogance because I see that EVERYWHERE.

 

[nd2023]

If I could get Wired 96.5's HD2 signal where I live, I would have bought an HD radio a long time ago. What's the point of buying an HD radio to hear the same crap in "HD"? How come Carribeans and Haitians (and other ethnicities on pirate stations) listen to and support the pirate stations that play their favorite music, even though the pirates have a crappier signal than Pulse?
Back in the early part of this decade, I discovered that I really liked dance music by listening to KTU. If KTU sucked back then like it sucks now, I probably would not have discovered that I liked dance music. And I'm a DXer too, so I heard Party 105.3 play dance music that I really liked. I used to listen to it for hours sometimes through static when the tropo hit because I hadn't found any dance stations on the Internet yet (before Energy 98 and iPartyRadio). I believe there are so many other people who like dance music but haven't discovered it yet. On Pulse 87, a listener called in and said "I never heard this kind of music before and I happened to stumble on your station and I really like your music." I also get similar phone calls on my dance show on my college station, and my show is one of the more popular ones because it's the only dance outlet in the area.
A lot of youngsters have friends who are in bands, and may not know anyone who's a dance DJ (by that, I mean a producer, not simply someone who beatmatches songs at a club), because it's so much easier to rap or play a guitar/drum/other music instrument than to learn how to use a computer or synthesizer to create electronic dance music that sounds good. Therefore, the youth gravitates towards rock and hip hop. In high school, I was one of the few people that liked dance music. I DJ some parties at my college, and people love music they can actually dance to (even if they forget it next morning). Dance and hip hop go well together, dance and rock could be polar opposites.
If my observations are a reflection of people in general, then a full powered dance station could do very well in a major market. If Brett can find fans of dance music in the pine barrens, and Party 105.3 can find fans of dance music in sparsely populated eastern Long Island, imagine how many more can be found in a major city.
So, the Florida Party stations flopped? 95.3 Party in Apopka had a lot of static in downtown Orlando (before they moved their transmitter and increased power), and didn't come in well in the Disney area. 95.3 was slowly transitioning to hip hop, and by the time they moved their transmitter, it was mostly hip hop. And Party 93.1 did well initially, but it was programmed poorly and there were no jocks, and a format hole led them to flip to rock. My point is that no major market (or even major city) ever had a dance station which has a signal equal to the other commercial stations. KTU and Star 93.7 were never dance stations. The dance stations we have now are all handicapped some way, but yet they manage to have loyal fans. And they do well in the places where they have a city grade signal. I know someone who graduated from Brandywine High School (home of Super 91.7) and she enjoys dance music because of that station. Perhaps 104.5 would have done so well if it flipped to dance instead of Spanish, that WRFF wouldn't exist.

 

[Rockin Rob]

Maybe some of my radio brethern (and sistern) can back me up on this, but "loyal fan bases" do not equate to mass appeal/mainstream success.

 

[murcuryvapor]

On the other hand, you say dance music will be the savior for terrestrial radio.

Let's put it in these terms. Terrestrial radio NEEDS innovative programming...one that wants to GET people back onto radio. Pulse 87 is doing that. Don't believe me? Look at this link below....

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10409000/1/the-fm-radio-station-you-wont-find-on-fm.html

It can be dance, it can be other voids in your marketplace. It could be new formats not ventured on SD such as a "gay" outlet. Point is, radio is in trouble! Look at what happened with Clear Channel today as the investors who wanted to buy had backed out and their shares fell SHARPLY! NUMBERS SHMUMBERS...you gotta do something quick! You can't think "traditional" anymore. The technology out there is too fast and too quick to grab as many people as possible...leaving radio in the dust since they're just sticking to "safe"....which quite honestly, is no longer "safe".

Catering to 40+ year olders is NOT the sole answer. Innovative programming is. And yes, I DO feel dance is the "savior" only because it is something DIFFERENT than traditional CHR. Granted, some elements of CHR is in there...it NEEDS to be to attract new listeners. But in comparison to everything else offered, dance IS different....or let's change that...RHYTHMIC.

So go on.....keep on laughing at me. It will be VERY interesting to see what happens in the near future when what I am pushing actually happens and ratings are at or near the top in the big markets. Then we'll see who laughs, and most likely it will be ME doing the "told ya so!"

One thing I've definitely learned about radio.....you have to possess that degree of arrogance because I see that EVERYWHERE.

The 'disco era' is long over. That was the only real period in time dance music dominated with a format. And it was stamped with that same corpo-rock machinery that I also found loathsome.

The last exciting thing I heard on a 'dance' station was Speed Racer on 97.1..and that was over 15 years ago. Only mash-ups offer anything remotely interesting-to my mind anyway-and that is an extension of the Hip Hop/Sampling thing.

I liked some house. Acid House was a personal favorite. I still have the Maurice and Yazz 12"s somewhere. Am I wading through Deep House or other forms that retain the 'disco'ey stamp? No. I like the abstract sample-laden stuff--like 'Pump up the Volume'-and wasn't that a crossover hit?

Move up a few years, and I am listening to DJ Shadow, Aphex Twin, Grassy Knoll, Dub/Reggae music of all stripes, and well-constructed (!) Hip-Hop (you know, where the word 'woah!' isn't repeated ad-nauseam)
Some stuff I can listen to I qualify as timeless. You really can't say that about most forms of dance music. Freestyle-I can pick the year every time. To me, it sounds the same. It's imbued in the production vales of the music: 8-bit samplers and brassy keyboards. Same with most of the current 'techno-fused stuff: too repetitive to be interesting, and too 'niche' to be crossover.

I would rather have a Breakbeat/Chill station than an 80s throwback (yes, that is where you're stuck-admit it or not) dance station.

So, you'll have a time in NY where you have a 18M+ metro to deal with. Philly is Cheesteaks and horrible 'alt rock'; same old, same old. Don't think it would fly.

 

[TonySantiago]

Wow Murcury! For a minute there, I thought you were a "hater" too! And for me, I'm BIG into house, deep house (the lounge grooves) and trance. And I certainly remember Maurice, plus the Acid tracks that came out of the UK during that time...early 90's.

Freestyle? If there was new material that could come out that sounds NOTHING like the 80s, I would welcome that....the music has to reinvent itself.

What does this have to do with radio, talking music issues (for everyone else wondering)......a rhythmic station for today has to sound like TODAY, not how 'KTU in NYC does playing mainly old.

 

[murcuryvapor]

Wow Murcury! For a minute there, I thought you were a "hater" too! And for me, I'm BIG into house, deep house (the lounge grooves) and trance. And I certainly remember Maurice, plus the Acid tracks that came out of the UK during that time...early 90's.

Freestyle? If there was new material that could come out that sounds NOTHING like the 80s, I would welcome that....the music has to reinvent itself.

What does this have to do with radio, talking music issues (for everyone else wondering)......a rhythmic station for today has to sound like TODAY, not how 'KTU in NYC does playing mainly old.

(I was spinning Acid/House in the late 80s, actually. Yes, mostly English, but some US artists as well.)

My point is that 'reinvention', which seems to be nil. Dance music is boring to me, most current and past. No patience for the 'oontz' with subtle shifts in vocal style, and that's what will keep people away. The paradox is that's the quality it needs to sell at all, and with the shrinking Philly population more interested in Rock, Pop and Talk, where would you crowbar it in without infusing rap/hiphop into the playlist? It has no pedigree in this city to stand alone.

(Now, MIA? Different story. Not saying that all records should sound like hers, but she is stylistically interesting at least.)

Basically, the best you can hope for is a crossover infusion into a pop format-as some rap, dance, and rock/alt does.

So, if the 'dance' station is going to fail anyway, how about a station that plays some of the aforementioned artists like Shadow and other breakbeat/chill/electronic artists-that is not college band-and sell to that ever-shrinking tiny niche? As long as we're fantasizing...why not? It would be an interesting few months at least.

 

[Dancerev889]

Wow Murcury! For a minute there, I thought you were a "hater" too! And for me, I'm BIG into house, deep house (the lounge grooves) and trance. And I certainly remember Maurice, plus the Acid tracks that came out of the UK during that time...early 90's.

Freestyle? If there was new material that could come out that sounds NOTHING like the 80s, I would welcome that....the music has to reinvent itself.

What does this have to do with radio, talking music issues (for everyone else wondering)......a rhythmic station for today has to sound like TODAY, not how 'KTU in NYC does playing mainly old.

The current dance music that is coming out is very pop driven. Which is a very good thing. Along with the BPM's going way up on the hip hop side, you are beginning to see hip-hop and dance mesh together again like it did in the early to mid 90's.

(I was spinning Acid/House in the late 80s, actually. Yes, mostly English, but some US artists as well.)

My point is that 'reinvention', which seems to be nil. Dance music is boring to me, most current and past. No patience for the 'oontz' with subtle shifts in vocal style, and that's what will keep people away. The paradox is that's the quality it needs to sell at all, and with the shrinking Philly population more interested in Rock, Pop and Talk, where would you crowbar it in without infusing rap/hiphop into the playlist? It has no pedigree in this city to stand alone.

(Now, MIA? Different story. Not saying that all records should sound like hers, but she is stylistically interesting at least.)

Basically, the best you can hope for is a crossover infusion into a pop format-as some rap, dance, and rock/alt does.

So, if the 'dance' station is going to fail anyway, how about a station that plays some of the aforementioned artists like Shadow and other breakbeat/chill/electronic artists-that is not college band-and sell to that ever-shrinking tiny niche? As long as we're fantasizing...why not? It would be an interesting few months at least.

 

[icybluelake]

I hope you are successful Tony.

 

[TonySantiago]

Thank you Icybluelake

Though the situation isn't that bad, depending on where you live. If you are close to Brett's station (Z88.9, also on 95.1 around the area) you're lucky. If you're near Wilmington (Super 91.7), you're lucky. But hopefully in time some commercial broadcaster will make a current rhythmic station in the area a reality. Radio needs to save themselves quick!

 

[Wildstyle K]

Wow! O.k, so based on all the things I've heard about Philly radio stations from people is that......(how can I put this delicately?)

If anyone ever decides to go to Philly, MAKE SURE that they BETTER have satellite radio befoe they get there, (even though I believe satellite radio doesn't carry all the variety of dance that's out there) or only people who have little or no interest in radio or dance music should go. Now I come here and this is only reenforcing all the things I've heard.

I really don't feel like getting into the come back of dance music or all the ways I believe that dance music could be successful and what needs to be done because I posted these theories on so many forum websites, had it all in my blogs, and just recently, a few hours ago, breifly mentioned about it on a U.K. website, where they were talking about why 2 Step Garage is dead in the U.K. Maybe I'll cut and paste it here someday, but not now.

I'll just say for now, those of you interested in dance music in Philly, just go to my MySpace page and immediately download as many mixes as you can.

It almost seems as if even Atlanta is doing better when it comes to dance music than Philly, and I believe here in Arizona is way better than Atlanta! (I'd like to see them play Ne-yo's new hit in Atlanta on a hip hop station... or even "damaged" by Danity Kane.. it took "don't stop the music" long enough to reach their playlists!)

Anyway, go to my page and just enjoy the hott new mixes I post weekly. Don't worry about what you may have missed, just know hot mixes are coming every week, and listen to my shows on Stevie B's dance party radio (www.DancePartyRadio.com) You listen to his station, it's mostly old school, but when I do my shows, I play a lot of breakz, booty bass, house, electro-pop....etc and I rarely play old school. I'm not sure when I'll do my next show, but it will be soon. Just listen out...

Club KDM Experience vol. 1 & 2 alone will hit you with hott new tracks from Rockell, Lady Sovereign, Lisette Melendez, Sharyn Maceren, Flo Rida, Underdog Project, Kat DeLuna, and even the new Paula B and Stevie B hits. Project Freestyle! Vol. 1,2,3, and 4 will hit you with much more than that, and this is just a breif summary of what you'll get on my page, so just go now www.myspace.com/djkdm and read my blogs to make sure you're getting all that you want. (I've got to clean it up a bit so all links are in one place, but the info is all there.) You'll get to listen before you download most. Enjoy...

AND hopefully at some point mainstream radio will get better. Not going to get in to all the politics now, but for once I can say at least I'm pretty much satisfied with what we have here in Phoenix during the mix shows. All it took was for one station to pop in and it caused others to improve themselves as well. The new 101.5 JamZ (rhythmic) hardly plays any dance, but they at least keep it rhythmic and include the bass remixes of r&b and hip hop hitz. Their old school shows are phenomenal, especially on Friday's during Flashback Friday, when the PROGRAM DIRECTOR mixes. I just don't get why if he mixes booty bass, house and freestyle, then why can't the other dj's on the station do it too? But whatever. At least Kiss FM does it now. We have the new Movin 97.5 which is like the "MY" station in Philly, but Movin sucks now compared to what other stations are doing. No one plays more dance than Energy 92.7 / 101.1 The Beat of Arizona, but the problem is that Energy's signal is so weak that many people just ignore it. Hearing dance on top 40 and rhythmic stations makes me happy because all the brainwashed people hearing it there will start to accept it because most people think this way: "I hate techno, but if the radio is playing it with the hip hop hits and my friends start liking it, then it's cool and I like it too".

As of right now, my favorite station is BBC Radio 1. It's on Sirius Satellite radio, a station broadcasting from the U.K. that palys all the top (U.K.) hits, which includes Fragma, September, David Guetta...etc. along with the regular radio stuff they play here.

 

[CHRles]

Actually, Wired 96.5 recently added Ida Corr's "Let Me Think About It" to its playlist. It's pretty much Top 10 at the station as of this writing.

 

[only1moore]

Thats not the only thing they seem to be doing: They're promoting "Freestyle Invasion" on April 12th (2008), hosted by none other than Chio.

 

[TonySantiago]

Well KDM, you still have Z88.9 and Super 91.7 nearby so the situation is not that bleak.

Besides, the majority of posts in here come from the "haters", that either don't understand or don't WANT to understand. And when they THINK they understand, it's only a small portion of what is the bigger picture. To contrast, DO hear from those that live in the Philly area that can't catch the stations above, but would LOVE for a current rhythmic station to happen there.

Maybe it's the fear of the "haters" that keeps them from posting in here (which I am strongly advising that they do post and not to be "afraid" to speak out.) but based on those posts...that doesn't mean that Philly is anti-dance music. Just that there is a lot of oppostion and outspoken folks. And this time, we're standing!

 

[murcuryvapor]

Well KDM, you still have Z88.9 and Super 91.7 nearby so the situation is not that bleak.

Not really-WBZC barely comes in past the Betsy Ross Bridge, and I don't think WKDU goes by 'Super'.

 

[TonySantiago]

and I don't think WKDU goes by 'Super'.

It's WMPH in Wilmington...they go by Super 91.7

 

[Rockin Rob]

Well KDM, you still have Z88.9 and Super 91.7 nearby so the situation is not that bleak.

Besides, the majority of posts in here come from the "haters", that either don't understand or don't WANT to understand. And when they THINK they understand, it's only a small portion of what is the bigger picture.

OK, explain that last statement to us anti-dance people and TRY to make it compelling, so as to not pawn us off as "you don't like dance music, but if you would open your mind, you'd love it as much as we do". You danceniks like to paint with broad strokes, much like you portray us doing. Truly, its the dance crowd who likes to "exclude since you don't think like us", which, coincidentially, you like to viw US as the close-minded/discriminatory ones.

 

[TonySantiago]

OK, explain that last statement to us anti-dance people and TRY to make it compelling, so as to not pawn us off as "you don't like dance music, but if you would open your mind, you'd love it as much as we do". You danceniks like to paint with broad strokes, much like you portray us doing. Truly, its the dance crowd who likes to "exclude since you don't think like us", which, coincidentially, you like to viw US as the close-minded/discriminatory ones.

Okay...here we go Rob.

First, I must state that before we "get into this", I don't want to change ANYONE into liking dance music; not as much as I do, not even 1/1,000,000th of the level that I do. So with that, here we go. When I made the original post way back when, it was just to see how the "waters" was. Did I think there were people that were going to "hate?" Absolutely. However, it was the LEVEL of hate that I've witnessed in here, on this specific board, that really took me aback and got me on the offensive. I've posted similar threads in other forums but never got NEAR the harsh response as I did here. To which the "haters" attitude comes in loud and clear.

And yeah, based on the underground..you are right, there are dance fans out there that have that same attitude with the hate and exclusion, even "inter" genre-al (if there is such a word). And within, it ticks me off because on the other side of the coin, I tell the dance fans that we've been underground for too long and now it's time to start to rise up and be on the same level with other popular musical genres. That's the basis of my coalition. We know there are problems within and we are doing whatever it takes to address them so that we can forge ahead here.

Regarding those that don't like dance....that's fine. You don't have to like it. But when you get these fervent remarks coming from yourself and many others in here, I'm gonna take defense. Rob, you are one of those guys that I feel that I can discuss this issue with and even if we don't agree, at least we can talk. There are those that will NEVER get it and come off ignorant in the process to which I just plain ignore because they're not worth my time.

I can only speak for myself here by saying that even though I am a dance music fan, I am open to all forms of music. I can listen to Keith Urban, Led Zeppelin, Beethoven, Bruce Springsteen, The Four Tops and get an appreciation for the music in itself. And that's where I am getting at with the "haters" in here. You don't have to like dance. But quit ripping it (and I am saying this in general to all...not just specifically you) and ripping fans of the music that do appreciate it. That's all I'm saying. And to that I hope along the way there are more posts about dance in the Philly board.

You don't have to agree with them, and that's fine but stop the "hate". We're not "hating" either.

Thank you,