dance music station (or at least show) needed in Boston

[BRNout]

: If you like that crap - good for you! Get yourself an
Ipod, crank it up to 15 and go crazy. Just do it with headphones
on, in private, PUH-LEEZ!

There should be enough variety on the FM dial to please both groups: those who love rhythmic music and those who hate it. Sadly in Boston right now, only the latter group is being (over)served properly. Personally, I enjoy all sorts of music and find Boston to be one of the most lacking big markets when it comes to variety. And, forget the HD-2 argument. There are probably only 500 people in the whole market who have them and I'd bet that a solid 25% can't decode 93.7 HD-2 with their radio. So that's not a valid "here you go" concession either.

None of the rock stations in the market are burning up the ratings, yet the various ownership groups cling to those formats like grim death. I can't think of another market quite like this one. Even Salt Lake City has more (a lot more) programming diversity.

Just because WBCN was hot back in the 80's (and yes, I listened to it then) doesn't mean that they must remain some sort of a rock museum that has garnered poorer and poorer ratings over the years. Times change. And, there are simply too many rock-based formats in Boston; particularly when viewed with respect to the limited number of market wide signals available. One of them could, and should, be converted into a rhythmic-based station. Be it dance or urban contemporary/AC or a hybrid.

Most of the really big markets are down to 2, 3 or 4 full-market rock-based (AOR, classic, active, alternative) formatted stations. Boston has at least 5 and that counts neither the duplicated signal of WAAF, The River, Mike, or the many classic rock rimshots. For example, Chicago has 4 right now and only 1 is doing well (Bonneville's Classic Hits WDRV). New York is down to 2. All are markets with a lot more available commercial signals on FM. Add in all those AC and Hot AC female-oriented (i.e. Nickelback twice an hour) stations and there's little room for much else in Boston.

The "Power 104" stunt was probably the only one in the US this year where the "stunt" format, if done for real, would double the audience within one quarter! If you want to see a manifestation of that, just look at the excited posts on this board. Normally, these stunts are supposed to be a joke. This time, the joke's on WBCN.....

By the way, the term "disco" is almost 30 years out of date.

 

[nd2023]

LIke it or not, that is your own business. As far as a radio format
is concerned, if any station ownership thought there was money to be
made by doing it, they would already be doing it, regardless of their personal
feelings/tastes... Business is business...

Mega Media Group is already doing it in market #1, and is expanding to markets #2 and #3. They see increasing revenue in the future.

 

[WLYNWAZNgm]

What part of BUSINESS do you not understand? Other markets have
absolutely nothing to do what is done in THIS market. If station ownership
IN THIS MARKET thought the format would be profitable, and advertisers
would support it, THEY WOULD ALREADY BE DOING IT!
GET A CLUE!

 

[d21ofnj]

What part of BUSINESS do you not understand? Other markets have
absolutely nothing to do what is done in THIS market. If station ownership
IN THIS MARKET thought the format would be profitable, and advertisers
would support it, THEY WOULD ALREADY BE DOING IT!
GET A CLUE!

Here's a clue, look what kind of format is on top of the ratings, and look what's below the 3.0. Everyone is going in a rhythmic direction now, I assure you a dance station will make the Top 10. Why no one has done it, it's plain simple. Corporate doesn't want to get their hands dirty incase one of their rock stations has to flip, especially if they flip to dance. They could profit and make business, it just takes the right brain to control it.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

There are probably only 500 people in the whole market who have them and I'd bet that a solid 25% can't decode 93.7 HD-2 with their radio.

WMKK HD-2 is strong and steady here in Somerville, and I'm even on the "wrong" side of a hill (facing southwest).

 

[WLYNWAZNgm]

I can now rest easy, because you have assured me! You obviously
have all of the answers. How nice for you! You obviously have owned, operated
and programmed many, many successful commercial radio stations! Not only that,
but you have been a CEO of many corporations, and have a vast understanding
how corporations operate! Not. I just love it when wannabes, never were's
and never will be's have all of the answers...
: No clue. None. Zero. Zip. Nada...

 

[d21ofnj]

I can now rest easy, because you have assured me! You obviously
have all of the answers. How nice for you! You obviously have owned, operated
and programmed many, many successful commercial radio stations! Not only that,
but you have been a CEO of many corporations, and have a vast understanding
how corporations operate! Not. I just love it when wannabes, never were's
and never will be's have all of the answers...
: No clue. None. Zero. Zip. Nada...

Okay, how come you haven't tried to program dance? Have you even THOUGHT of giving the format a chance for the LISTENERS to decide from themselves? Is it for a MEANINGFUL purpose or is it that you believe all other stations on their "opinions" if dance was NEVER given a chance to even be on commercial radio? Tell me, if all other pirates are flooding the frequency, why do they go after the dance pirates first? There has to be something more than just saying dance music won't work or make any profit.

 

[BRNout]

What part of BUSINESS do you not understand? Other markets have
absolutely nothing to do what is done in THIS market. If station ownership
IN THIS MARKET thought the format would be profitable, and advertisers
would support it, THEY WOULD ALREADY BE DOING IT!
GET A CLUE!

Yeah, that would make sense EXCEPT that ownership often has prejudices about what they carry on their stations. So, it's not nearly that simple. For example, EMF broadcasting could get a hell of a lot more nationwide listeners with a country format than with their lame K-Love format. But that's what they're all about. There are lots of examples of this. In Boston, you have a slate of owners which (aside from CBS and Clear Channel) do not know how to program a rhythmic format. Yet, there are all these underperforming rock stations.

And, Boston is not its own country and cannot be looked at in some sort of vacuum. Other markets DO provide a guide as to what can work and what probably won't. While it's true that some ownership groups get out of hand in programming the exact same format in all of their markets, a smart programmer can see which way the wind is blowing and what can work in their market. Boston radio, on the other hand, has been pretty much static for a decade. Yeah, there have been a couple of changes here and there. But the overall market picture hasn't changed while the business has changed dramatically. And, the tastes of the public have changed.

Yeah WLYNgm, I get it, you are a rocker and hate rhythmic stuff. The bold font eludes to this. And, I respect your point of view. But save the lecture, my argument isn't about personal taste as much as it is about business. Most Boston stations are programming with 1980s and 90s formats to a 2009 audience. WBCN? WAAF? WZLX? These are throwbacks to an earlier time. WFNX? WBOS? A joke. As a group, they haven't changed significantly in years.

Most 18-35s men aren't listening to that kind of music anymore. They're listening to WJMN, aren't they? High school kids have been listening to Hip Hop and rhythmic stuff for years. At least that's what the ratings indicate - and have for years. Most AOR (Metallica, etc.) is their father's music. Some listen, but not that many. And women of the same demo? Kiss 108. Why not get a piece of that audience? That's the freaking point.

It is BUSINESS and it's time for the big guys in Boston to get a clue. All seem to be satisfied with the status quo and there are few enough stations out there that they're getting away with it. But, all it will take is one bold move to shake everything up.

Time to get with it. Tastes change and demos change. When I visit relatives in southern NH, the radio is fun for me now because it's like listening to a time capsule from 1990 or so. The likes of Rock 101 up in Manchester and WHEB and WAAF and WBCN program in a way that you don't hear that much anymore. The preponderance of music that I hear is stuff that you just don't hear so much elsewhere. Fun for a weekend to hear so many old Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple and Boston songs. But absurd when you live in the market and find that there's little variety. And, by the way, WJMN is killing everyone with one of the weakest CHR/Urban playlists in any big market. They're ripe for the picking. Am I wrong?

Yes, other (more fluid) markets do provide a clue as to what's hot and what's not. You want to be successful? To break out of the crowd (and CC's FM stranglehold)? Take a look at what works and where things are going. Sure, Boston isn't New York and never will be. But, you need to look farther afield and at other places too. How about Seattle, Portland, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Minneapolis? Collectively, they tell you something about where things are going. Anyone who is in the radio business and ignores trends does so at their own peril.

 

[WLYNWAZNgm]

Again, my personal tastes have nothing whatsoever to do with business. Even our own stations here - as a listener, I am not their audience. There is, however, an audience out there for their respective communities. Me, as a listener - WZLX, the River, or my CD player...

Like any type of programming, brokered time is available on a variety of stations, for those who wish to put up their own money where their mouths are. "I want what I want when I want it" and continued whining accomplish nothing. Simplistic answers won't cut it. Just look at the current economic picture...

I am not on this board soliciting to sell time - that could be considered a conflict of interest. Possible there may be big changes here that will surprise many people...I am not at liberty to elaborate right now...When I am ready to make an announcement, you will hear it here first!

If somebody approached us with a viable business plan., of course I would listen. Regardless of my personal tastes, good business is good business.

 

[rapking]

What part of BUSINESS do you not understand? Other markets have
absolutely nothing to do what is done in THIS market. If station ownership
IN THIS MARKET thought the format would be profitable, and advertisers
would support it, THEY WOULD ALREADY BE DOING IT!
GET A CLUE!

Yeah, that would make sense EXCEPT that ownership often has prejudices about what they carry on their stations. So, it's not nearly that simple. For example, EMF broadcasting could get a hell of a lot more nationwide listeners with a country format than with their lame K-Love format. But that's what they're all about. There are lots of examples of this. In Boston, you have a slate of owners which (aside from CBS and Clear Channel) do not know how to program a rhythmic format. Yet, there are all these underperforming rock stations.

And, Boston is not its own country and cannot be looked at in some sort of vacuum. Other markets DO provide a guide as to what can work and what probably won't. While it's true that some ownership groups get out of hand in programming the exact same format in all of their markets, a smart programmer can see which way the wind is blowing and what can work in their market. Boston radio, on the other hand, has been pretty much static for a decade. Yeah, there have been a couple of changes here and there. But the overall market picture hasn't changed while the business has changed dramatically. And, the tastes of the public have changed.

Yeah WLYNgm, I get it, you are a rocker and hate rhythmic stuff. The bold font eludes to this. And, I respect your point of view. But save the lecture, my argument isn't about personal taste as much as it is about business. Most Boston stations are programming with 1980s and 90s formats to a 2009 audience. WBCN? WAAF? WZLX? These are throwbacks to an earlier time. WFNX? WBOS? A joke. As a group, they haven't changed significantly in years.

Most 18-35s men aren't listening to that kind of music anymore. They're listening to WJMN, aren't they? High school kids have been listening to Hip Hop and rhythmic stuff for years. At least that's what the ratings indicate - and have for years. Most AOR (Metallica, etc.) is their father's music. Some listen, but not that many. And women of the same demo? Kiss 108. Why not get a piece of that audience? That's the freaking point.

It is BUSINESS and it's time for the big guys in Boston to get a clue. All seem to be satisfied with the status quo and there are few enough stations out there that they're getting away with it. But, all it will take is one bold move to shake everything up.

Time to get with it. Tastes change and demos change. When I visit relatives in southern NH, the radio is fun for me now because it's like listening to a time capsule from 1990 or so. The likes of Rock 101 up in Manchester and WHEB and WAAF and WBCN program in a way that you don't hear that much anymore. The preponderance of music that I hear is stuff that you just don't hear so much elsewhere. Fun for a weekend to hear so many old Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple and Boston songs. But absurd when you live in the market and find that there's little variety. And, by the way, WJMN is killing everyone with one of the weakest CHR/Urban playlists in any big market. They're ripe for the picking. Am I wrong?

Yes, other (more fluid) markets do provide a clue as to what's hot and what's not. You want to be successful? To break out of the crowd (and CC's FM stranglehold)? Take a look at what works and where things are going. Sure, Boston isn't New York and never will be. But, you need to look farther afield and at other places too. How about Seattle, Portland, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Minneapolis? Collectively, they tell you something about where things are going. Anyone who is in the radio business and ignores trends does so at their own peril.

I agree 100% .

 

[johnster]

BRNout The only thing your leaving out of your argument was it was tried here and not that long ago and bombed. WBCN's ratings even at their low right now are better than what Star937's were in their best of times. They also bill way,way more! WLYN is right. If any of these corperations thought it would be profitable we'd would have one. They all spend lots of money on tons and tons of research. They do know whats going on in other markets. They also know what demographics make up this market. Stations formats are targeted at specific audiences. That is why folks are suggesting to Steve N to try Funkytown either on HD2 or online. Not to pacify him but because it's the best he is going to do and that's not really that bad. Considering that there isn't enough of an urban population here to support any major station. So any station in Boston needs to get a huge chunk of it's audience from well outside the city. That is what is different about the make up of this small city compared to many others. And why all the stations here are targeted at formats that will work in Weston and Wellesly as well as they would in BackBay or Dorchester. This is why right now HD2 is perfect for niche programing ideas like this which would not work on the main signals.

 

[chitchatjf]

The thing is WJMN generally (well at least till lately) played NOTHING but Rap!

WXKS has all but forgotten its urban roots.

The concept of WBCN going CHR may not happen but Urban AC is a format that could work in Boston.

 

[BRNout]

BRNout The only thing your leaving out of your argument was it was tried here and not that long ago and bombed. WBCN's ratings even at their low right now are better than what Star937's were in their best of times. They also bill way,way more! WLYN is right. If any of these corperations thought it would be profitable we'd would have one. They all spend lots of money on tons and tons of research. They do know whats going on in other markets. They also know what demographics make up this market. Stations formats are targeted at specific audiences. That is why folks are suggesting to Steve N to try Funkytown either on HD2 or online. Not to pacify him but because it's the best he is going to do and that's not really that bad. Considering that there isn't enough of an urban population here to support any major station. So any station in Boston needs to get a huge chunk of it's audience from well outside the city. That is what is different about the make up of this small city compared to many others. And why all the stations here are targeted at formats that will work in Weston and Wellesly as well as they would in BackBay or Dorchester. This is why right now HD2 is perfect for niche programing ideas like this which would not work on the main signals.

Well, sort of. However, execution of 9/10 of success. Star 93.7 was a rhythmic AC formatted station. That's a very narrow format niche that is directed heavily toward females. Sure, I listened to it too. But, it often frustrated me with some pretty light songs. If you look around the country, you see that rhythmic AC formatted stations rarely do well and many have flipped to other formats. It's simply too narrow of a niche.

You're talking Star in the way that people speak of "Spanish" formats as if they're a singular. As if it was somehow representative of "that kind of music" and is somehow the same think as an urban station in New York or Washington. It couldn't be further from the truth. You bring up "Funkytown" as if that's a typical song played on the likes of an urban contemporary or hot CHR station? Huh? That's an oldie that even an urban AC won't touch outside of specialty programming. Clearly, you don't understand what we're talking about here.

Just because Star didn't generate great ratings (though they weren't bad either - always better than WBOS for instance) doesn't mean that a hot CHR or urban contemporary format wouldn't work. It's completely different. Clearly, you are not familiar with any of these formats - or mistakenly think that Star was in some way "urban" which it most certainly was not. An urban contemporary or hot CHR format would be aimed more directly at WJMN and Kiss, both of which are on top thanks to a lack of competition. Radio One tried to get a piece of this action with 97.7, but were hampered by a piss poor signal and even worse programming execution.

Also, the demographics change by the day. Star has been gone for a couple of years now. In that time, you have more high school kids who were raised on rap who are now in the 18-34 demo. And, more rockers who have gone out of it. And out of the bigger 18-54. Sorry, but it's not 1990 anymore and musical tastes have changed.

By the way, when you're talking about billing - nationally what's the #1 billing music station? KIIS, a CHR in Los Angeles. The power ratios for CHR formats are excellent and those for urban formats are good - some are much better than they were 5 years ago. New York's Hot 97 is an example of this. The power ratios for rock stations, on the other hand, is slowly fading with the demos. In other words, they no longer bill as well - as an overall group - as you think.

 

[TonySantiago]

Okay....

I actually came here because of Pulse 87 (a New York dance station) launching in Washington D.C. by June. Someone mentioned that there should be a dance station in Boston and I DO agree....wholeheartedly.

I HAVE been to Boston during the Kiss 108 days as well as the Star 93.7 days. Regarding Kiss 108, they were VERY similar to our Hot 103/97 in New York, and to my understanding did rather well in the ratings for a bit. Star 93.7 was similar to 'KTU and quite honestly (from all the times I had dissed 'KTU/New York in the past), 'KTU sounded WAY better than Star ever did! I didn't think a station could sound worse than 'KTU did during its dance peak but Star actually made me realize how "lucky" we were. I strongly believe that a Pulse 87 (New York) type station for Boston would do rather well because it would lean MORE on currents and tap into a few rhythmic/pop as well.

Business? Okay....Boston/Cambridge is a college town. You have a wide amount of folks in their 20's as well as those in their early 30's that have either lived in Boston or transplanting to Boston from somewhere else that is your potential audience. Yes, the economy is tough right now but nevertheless these are the people that will hit clubs, tanning salons, health clubs, get their first NEW car, beauty concerns, etc. An advertiser that caters to this sort of clientele would LOVE to get their ad on a station like this. Add TO the fact that you have music from the clubs that is popular there but aren't getting any sort of radio airplay. There are also those within MY age bracket (40's) that love dance music as well. The format is certainly more fresh and exciting than what is currently being offered in terrestrial radio right now.

You can add mix shows to this. Local talent?....hmmmm Louie DeVito, Joe Bermudez, Josh Harris (I can go on and on). But more importantly, there IS an audience base in the Greater Boston area that would love a station like this. Yet, just as all radio folks...you want proof. And this is the time right now where the Boston dance fans MUST unite together to get this to happen. Talk is cheap, let's make that walk!

I know someone that had wanted to start up a Boston Dance Music Coalition but I haven't heard from that guy. We have to show the demand and a group similar to mine in Boston is the only way. Get the talk circulating to the media, do events, whatever it takes and I will back anyone who does this. But being that I don't live in Boston, that "counterpart" of mine would have to be dedicated to puttting a full commitment into this.

Time to start another revolution folks! We'll all dance at WLYN's studios when such a dance station goes into the Top 5!

 

[johnster]

The thing is WJMN generally (well at least till lately) played NOTHING but Rap!

WXKS has all but forgotten its urban roots.

The concept of WBCN going CHR may not happen but Urban AC is a format that could work in Boston.

WJMN since it's inception was targeted at young women in the suburbs. At that time and for a quite a while they were into rap. Not hardcore gangster rap but rap. Obviously they didn't mind picking up other listeners but they always had a target audience. This is why urban hiphop fans were never that happy with it. But now young girls aren't into rap as much. So its shifting. Kiss is also targeting women just a slightly older demo. It's changed it's format over the years but always done very well with it's demo. These were not haphazard changes but tactical changes to keep their target audience happy. When WBCN went to alternative the same was true. They saw they where loosing their target audience of males 18-34. They adapted and had many more successful years. This is all normal. But none of these companies is going to launch a dance or R&B station without some major research to show that this will work not only in the city but throughout the suburbs. And after Star937 went down in flames after a pretty good try at it I just don't see it. All the major dance clubs have closed up one after another. The last successful dance club trend was techno not R&B or 80's dance music. I think dance music today may be less popular than it was when Star937 existed. Again all these companies have plans. They they do research. They study what their audience wants and they try to adapt. If any of them thinks there is a wide enough audience they will go after it. But most of the cities you have mentioned were it is popular have much larger black or urban audiences than we do. HD2 is a great place for it in the meantime and you should really give Funkytown93.7-2 a try.

 

[TonySantiago]

All the major dance clubs have closed up one after another. The last successful dance club trend was techno not R&B or 80's dance music. I think dance music today may be less popular than it was when Star937 existed.

To be fair, I don't live in Boston to know the club scene there. But if you base things on New York and Philly, dance music is actually getting MORE popular. A lot of pop tunes that you would hear on a Kiss 108 or WJMN have been remixed by dance music producers/DJ's where they have a sound of their own and are actually getting some play.

I did tune into the 93.7-HD2. That is NOT what Boston wants. This is what "corporate" wants and that's why corporate is in trouble.

 

[BRNout]

But Johnster, you simply cannot use Star 93.7 as some sort of "example" in this argument. It was rhythmic AC and, actually, the comparison with WKTU isn't fair to WKTU. It was lighter and even more female-leaning than WKTU (if that's possible). It's not the sort of format that's being proposed here. It wasn't really a 'dance' station, it certainly wasn't urban and it had nothing to do with hip hop. It was a more rhythmic version of adult contemporary.

Also, to set the record straight, Star did not "go down in flames" - it was simply flipped to the flavor of the month format. At the time, it was the "Jack" variety hits format but Entercom named it "Mike" in order to avoid paying royalties for the "Jack" name. Mike garners the same or lower ratings than Star but also is low overhead. So it's more profitable. When Star was flipped, there were several stations in the market with lower ratings and at that time, frankly, WBCN and WZLX's numbers weren't that much better than Star's. So, let's at least get that straight.

What we're talking about here is the need for some format diversity in Boston. A dance station might do okay. And that's not what's on that damn 93.7 HD-2 signal that about 10 people can hear. Personally, I think a straight-on CHR as CBS is doing in NY and LA would clean up on both Kiss and Jamn. I also think that an urban contemporary and/or an urban/ac would do well. When WILD-AM was an urban/AC on a daytime only AM signal, it got a 2.0 and had more listeners than WBOS, WXRV or WFNX. That was a couple of years ago before Radio One crashed the station into a mountain. A full market FM would do even better.

As an aside, WJMN is more aimed at young men than women and it has one of the WORST hip hop playlists of any major market signal. Even Hartford's Hot 93.7 eats it's lunch! And, Kiss is aimed so heavily at women that it's one hell of a dull CHR. It skews older than most. Yet, Clear Channel cleans up with this status quo because the only other station that actually ever plays ANYTHING with rhythm is WODS! Clearly, there's space in between for someone to come in and knock both around. I've seen it happen in other markets - when the longtime, complacent, number 1 gets it's ass kicked within about 2 books. WJMN and Kiss are ripe for the picking. Now.

By the way, the Boston suburbs aren't all like Bedford or Lincoln. Not anymore. Lots of diversity now in places like Natick, Framingham, Lowell, Nashua, the Salems (both of them), Marlborough, Braintree, and I can continue..... It's not 1975 anymore when the Boston area was something like 95% white. There are plenty of newcomers in the area now. Most aren't rockers, either.

So, there are a couple of format holes that could be quite viable for someone in Boston: CHR, urban contemporary, urban/AC, and dance. Not "Funkytown" either. Yuck!

 

[Eli Polonsky]

You're talking Star in the way that people speak of "Spanish" formats as if they're a singular. As if it was somehow representative of "that kind of music" and is somehow the same think as an urban station in New York or Washington. It couldn't be further from the truth. You bring up "Funkytown" as if that's a typical song played on the likes of an urban contemporary or hot CHR station? Huh? That's an oldie that even an urban AC won't touch outside of specialty programming. Clearly, you don't understand what we're talking about here.

I don't think he was talking about the song "Funkytown".

"Funkytown" is the name that 93.7 calls its HD-2 (mostly) retro dance/disco format.

 

[WLYNWAZNgm]

My only point that I am trying to make here:
it is very cavalier to claim what will or will not
work, what will or not be profitable when the individual
making the claim is not putting up any of his own cash...
It is really easy to blame "corporate" because one is not
getting his/her own way. The industry does not owe you
(or anyone) a fomat because you say you want one...
Get over it...

 

[johnster]

Clearly, you don't understand what we're talking about here.

If you think JAMN is or was targeted at Men... Clearly you don't understand what we're talking about here.

I Refer to Star so much because the title of this thread is "dance music station (or at least show) needed in Boston" and that was the last unsuccessful attempt at a dance format in Boston. Three different program directors, a couple of different morning shows and multiple consultants took a whack at it. They retooled it a couple of times and if it was successful there never would have been a flip to Mike. Since it wasn't jumping on the Jack format first made good sense.

No one in this business cares that you don't feel you have enough diversity on the dial. We are not here to entertain you. We are here to sell advertising and make money for our stockholders or investors. A dance format in Boston today would not sell more advertising than most of the stations you have mentioned. These companies actually know more about this business than you do. The Boston market is nothing like NYC, Chicago or LA. All these same corporations have many successful urban orientated formats there. But Boston does not have a big enough urban population and that is the whole problem here.

This is why I continually stress that its a perfect fit for HD-2. And where do you get the idea that only 100 folks can get HD-2??? The HD-2 signals of all the Boston FM's blanket the city. Yes you have to buy a radio but for this niche programming that is the perfect solution. A powerful good sounding signal and yet you don't need the audience or cash flow you need for the main signals. This is where you could get your diversity without impacting my cash flow.

Now as to another CHR or HipHop station I was never talking about that because this thread was never about that. It was SteveN looking again for a dance station and for him and his pals Funkytown ( yes 93.7 HD-2) is not a bad answer.

For you probably pirate radio..