Just a hunch based on what I've seen of the proposed schedule: I suspect they don't have their local programming ready and/or don't have the technical facility ready to run the station.
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DFW NonStop Coming to KXAS-DT 5.2
- Thread starter eskipper411
- Start date
Not much in the way of local programming. Most of it is from WNBC. Wonder if the 7-10a news block will be live or a repeat of the morning show? Website promises "live weather and traffic updates," but that's it. And I wonder who will anchor The Rundown. Details they've released so far are kinda scant.
LibertyNT said:
I've asked about this before and the answer is no. The only reason they had it on before was due to Fox's financial relationship with the now-defunct USDTV operation. Unless there is a major shift in thinking at the corporate level, you will never see 4.2 again.
tested said:
That may be true of the old radar channel (and to be blunt, no big loss), but according to several posts at AVS Forum (including this and subsequent posts), there's no PQ advantage to not having a 4.2. Fox limits the network bandwidth to about 15.5 Mbps whether the local affiliates have a 2nd subchannel or not. This lets most affiliates (KXII is naturally an exception to this) broadcast the network feed without re-encoding, but it does upset videophiles who want the best possible PQ on network shows.
Disclaimer: that post is a few years old. It's possible Fox has changed things since then, though I doubt it.
tripinva said:
Here's an article that backs up the subscription mobile service plans of Fox and NBC. Curious that both are planning subscription services, but NBC isn't hoarding bandwidth like Fox. In fact, the switch from weather to NonStop will require even more of KXAS's bandwidth! NBC might be planning eventually to use KXTX for subscription services, but that's the same situation Fox has with KDFI. So why the difference? Is NBC just not planning bandwidth-hogging services like on-demand video?
Why the difference? Fox has the splicer which controls bandwidth, and I would expect that the television stations group is separate from the Fox network in terms of control. If they want to add 3.67 Mbps worth of Mobile DTV (enough for two video services), they'll have to do only that since the splicer only grants them about that much bandwidth away from the HD. NBC does not use the splicer and can thus crush down the HD into as small and pixelated a package as they like.
- Trip
- Trip
tripinva said:
Does that apply to KDFI as well? Both KDFW and KDFI use the same 720p resolution, so they may both use the Fox splicer. If so both stations would have the same bandwidth limitations for secondary services. OTOH, I don't have the equipment to check bandwidth, null packets, etc., and it's at least plausible that Fox is a bit "looser" re: the MyTV network and lets KDFI use more "standard" equipment. (I'm just an amateur at this.)
I'm surprised to learn that mobile DTV uses so much bandwidth. If 3.67 Mbps is only enough for two video services, that works out to over 1.8 Mbps - not much less than a full-blown SD subchannel - per service. I would've thought that mobile DTV resolution would be enough lower to allow a much lower bit rate. Oh well, live and learn.
So if both stations use the splicer I get your point. The best they could do would be for one station to broadcast 4.1 and 27.1's mobile DTV while the other broadcasts an SD subchannel and uses the 1 Mbps or so left over for a lower-bandwidth mobile service. That may work, but obviously I don't know the mobile DTV services Fox is planning. They may really need the whole 7.3 Mbps from both stations.
Anyway, getting back on the topic of 5.2: if NBC's mobile DTV plans are similar to Fox's, we're looking at least at 10 Mbps, between mobile DTV and two SD subchannels. (They can't compress DFW NonStop like they can the weather, or it'll look like the crap on 33.3. OTOH, maybe they don't care.)
At present all the bandwidth seems to be coming from KXAS, which would leave 5.1 with less than half the total bandwidth. A statmux would help some, but I still have to think 5.1's PQ would suffer quite a bit.
Meanwhile KXTX has only one subchannel and no mobile DTV AFAIK. So wouldn't it make more sense for NBC to move mobile DTV to KXTX and balance things out a bit better?
JHBrandt said:
To my knowledge, My Network TV does not use the splicer.
Well, the bits for the error correction have to come from somewhere. From what I understand, the video that comes out of a 1.83 Mbps segment is around 300 kbps and is encoded in MPEG-4. The audio adds a little extra to that, but not much, so the total payload is probably in the 350 kbps range for that 1.83 Mbps segment.
But here's the thing: why would they want to light up an SD subchannel and install all the infrastructure to support it that they might have to eliminate again in a year or two? NBC has been in the subchannel business for several years so they may not have had Mobile DTV in mind when they got set up for the subchannels they have now.
If Nonstop is as popular as I suspect it will be (which is to say, not at all), they could very well make it cable- and Mobile-only at some point in the future. That would eliminate one. And I've heard Universal Sports is getting set up for HD; that can only be fed directly to cable as well so they may feel less guilty about crushing that down in terms of bandwidth as well.
KXAS is stat-muxed already, but bear in mind that the Mobile DTV segments are static and I don't think there's any way around that.
KXTX will likely join KVEA, KSTS, and WNJU in adding Telemundo in Mobile DTV at some point in the future. There's been no doubling up of NBC and Telemundo like there has been with Fox and My Network TV in Chicago.
- Trip
Not a whole lot more blood they can squeeze from the KXAS turnip at this point. Most of the scripted primetime shows are now clocking in at less than 10Mb/s average, and sports only pull that up to about 11.5. WFAA is joining them in their quest to ruin HD, with 8.1 having been cut back yet again, this time to about 12.2Mb/s. Some sort of effort to pack their 'boxcars' full of rotten vegetables?
tripinva said:
Thanks for your detailed reply (not to mention your patience!
). That's a heckuva lot of error correction - and it comes on top of the error correction built into 8VSB! It makes sense, though. The 8VSB standard was never designed to work with antennas that moved around. I guess it was bound to take a lot of extra error correction to overcome that.I'm thinking if KDFI doesn't use the splicer, in theory Fox could add an SD subchannel that they wouldn't just have to get rid of later. Probably easier to put it on 27.2, though. Fox could offer the two basic mobile DTV services on KDFW (using the splicer), and additional services on KDFI (cramming down the bandwidth on .1 as necessary a la KXAS).
Of course that all assumes Fox actually had something worth airing on a subchannel: a shaky proposition at best. There's a big difference between what they could theoretically do and what's actually worth doing.
Back to KXAS: I'm reserving judgment until I see it, but you're probably right that NonStop will be a NonStarter. If they move it (and/or US) to mobile DTV-only, it'll help the bandwidth crunch a bit: enough to put the weather back if they wanted to (and don't toss the equipment); or they could just get rid of the subchannels entirely and boost the PQ on 5.1 somewhat.
As for doubling up with KXTX, I suspect NBC will eventually be forced to consider it if mobile DTV services become as popular/profitable as hoped.
coyoteaz said:
There seem to be two different models. CBS and (to a lesser extent) Fox, have opted for max. PQ, which means few or no subchannels. Fox has even formatted their on-screen scores for MLB and the NFL for widescreen TVs (which sucks for anyone using older TVs: to see Fox's scores they have to switch to either letterbox, which shrinks the image, or "full" mode, which squeezes the screen so everyone looks like the Navi in Avatar - then switch back when changing to another station).
ABC and NBC have opted for content instead, and are experimenting with subchannels that might turn a profit, trading off picture quality in the bargain.
The joker in this deck is mobile DTV. The FCC lets mobile DTV, unlike "regular" DTV, be encrypted. So, it can carry paid-subscription-only services, which makes it extremely enticing to broadcasters looking for new revenue sources. Absent new regulation, mobile DTV will probably swallow more and more bandwidth until free TV ends up barely watchable.
JHBrandt said:Thanks for your detailed reply (not to mention your patience!
Glad to.
That's basically it. I've heard, though, that the MH can be received with lower SNR values than the traditional signal can, either 4 dB or 8 dB depending on configuration, rather than the 15-16 dB required for regular ATSC.
This is pretty similar to what's going on in Chicago. Currently, Fox affiliate WFLD is airing nothing but the HD, but co-owned My affiliate WPWR has the following:
My Network TV in HD - 12.5 Mbps
Hidden SD My feed - 2.1 Mbps
Two M/H streams, one each for WFLD and WPWR - 3.67 Mbps
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=48772#station
http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/il-chi/48772-0_0.htm
In DC, they're airing Fox News and Fox Business encrypted, which would eat up the remaining bandwidth on WFLD if those services were expanded to other markets, so there's really not that much left. The hidden SD feed is nothing more than an SD simulcast, so like you say, there's not a lot for them to air.
The WeatherPlus gear has been dying all over the country in places where it's still airing, so I suspect it'll find its way into the dumpster as soon as possible. I also wouldn't count on seeing any subchannels go away to the benefit of the HD picture quality; I suspect they'd be eliminated only to add Mobile DTV service.
They may add services to both stations, but they wouldn't need to double up the NBC and Telemundo feeds on the KXTX signal in order to add other services. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.
JHBrandt said:
There's no restriction against encrypting services on standard ATSC so long as a single SD subchannel remains in the clear. Dallas was one of the USDTV markets before that service went under. More recently, Sezmi ran a similar service in LA before ending it last month.
- Trip
That's something I hadn't considered: the WeatherPlus equipment isn't being made anymore, so when it finally breaks down, the weather's gone no matter what KXAS wants to do. I'm
to see it go, but se la vie....If NonStop flops and there's no weather, I'd expect to see NonStop move to mobile DTV and 5.2 disappear. (Actually they'd probably renumber 5.3 to 5.2 and 5.3 would disappear, but you get my point.) Not so much to benefit the PQ on 5.1 - I think we're in agreement that NBC has decided not to cater to videophiles - but just because there's nothing else to offer. Something similar could happen to Universal Sports. Slightly better PQ would be a side effect, even if unintended, since mobile DTV offerings would take a bit less bandwidth than SD subchannels.
I worded that poorly. Let me clarify: I expect NBC will offer more mobile DTV services than Telemundo. Even though NBC cares more about content than video quality, as more and more bandwidth gets allocated to mobile DTV, eventually 5.1 will reach a point (8 Mbps?) where viewer complaints about PQ will skyrocket. At that point I think NBC will have to "commandeer" some of KXTX's bandwidth to maintain adequate PQ on 5.1.
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