Difference in signal strength from 540 to 1700

[fybush]

Bull! I've heard KRND Fox Farm and KFOX Los Angeles on the X-Band at night, aithough very weak.
-crainbebo

Right - that's skywave, which is great for DXing, but not so good for local coverage. In addition to the tendency of skywave signals to fade in and out, it's the nature of skywave that it takes a hop off the antenna, going up to (yup) the sky before bouncing back down to earth at a distance from the transmitter.

What's desirable for local coverage is the best possible groundwave signal, and being low on the dial helps immensely in that respect. Crainbebo, you're in the Seattle area...hop in your car and start driving around and you'll see that KVI 570 provides a reliable, listenable groundwave signal for literally hundreds of miles, while top-of-the dial signals like 1540, 1560, 1590 and 1620 don't go nearly as far, even at decent power levels.

KVI is a nearly ideal facility - not just very low on the dial, but non-directional day and night at 5 kW from an antenna of the proper height (90.1 degrees at 570 kHz) that's right on the water, with saltwater paths to all the major population centers in the market. At least out west, the only other such facility that comes even close to being that good is KSFO 560 in San Francisco, also low on the dial and on the water - but KSFO goes directional at night.

 

[radioman148]

Regarding this subject, in the early 60s WIND 560 and WJJD 1160 in Chicago had comparable formats.
Even though WIND ran only 5KW vs WJJDs 50KW, WIND had much better daytime signal coverage and they used it in their ad material.

 

[BRNout]

Regarding this subject, in the early 60s WIND 560 and WJJD 1160 in Chicago had comparable formats.
Even though WIND ran only 5KW vs WJJDs 50KW, WIND had much better daytime signal coverage and they used it in their ad material.

WIND still covers almost the same amount of territory via groundwave with 5 kw at 560 kHz as WLS does with 50 kw at 890 kHz.

A truly awesome signal that I just had the opportunity to test is CBK 540 from Watrous, Saskatchewan. Just incredible. Serves the cities of Regina and Saskatoon, which are about 160 miles apart! Came in as a local from Calgary to Edmonton, Alberta without blinking an eye. From over 300 miles to the east! And, it was solid groundwave the whole way, no fading.

Combine their low dial position and 50 kw with favorable ground conductivity on the plains and you have a juggernaut.

I had a lot of daytime dx though Alberta last week at all ends of the dial, but that's a subject for another post.....

 

[crainbebo]

Yakima area in August
Using a Grundig G5
570 KVI: never, slop by KPQ, maybe at night
630 KCIS: faint signal, mainly heard around the last two hours of daylight.
710 KIRO: poor-fair signal
770 KTTH: very faint
820 KGNW: very faint signal, usually around the last two hours of daylight
880 KIXI: never, blocked by weak KWIP Dallas, OR
950 KJR: never, interference by KALE and my radio
1000 KOMO: fair signal, still noticeable in the day!
1090 KPTK: don't know, maybe, but very faint
1150 KKNW: extermely faint, usually around the last two hours of daylight
1590 KLFE: not in the day, but at night

1210, 1250, 1300, 1360, 1380 and 1460 were not heard (too much interference or for 1460, covered up by local KUTI)

-crainbebo

 

[gar hi]

I was thinking about when I used to visit my brother out in California in the 70s when 610 KFRC San Francisco was a big top 40 station. I really liked listening to it especially because of Dr. Don Rose who originally was from WFIL in Philadelphia. KFRC was a 5kw non directional but it carried like a 50kw station (they have different call letters now but still broadcast as a 5kw ND). During the day, it could be picked up good well north and south in the central valley. After my first visit out there when I was 13, I SO much wished I could hear it at night back in New Jersey by turning the radio to the side away from 610 WIP's direction and maybe hear something in the background but I knew even then by looking at my North American radio guide there were several stations on that frequency between there and California. And I also assumed no 5kw station could possibly make it that distance. But after hearing some here say how those lower power stations could be heard great distances way back when there weren't so many stations, I'm wondering if I could have heard KFRC from all that distance if all the other stations were not broadcasting. Even with all the other stations on that frequency anyway, I guess it was possible their signal could have been there at times but I just couldn't sort it out with all the other stations?

 

[w9wi]

I'm wondering if I could have heard KFRC from all that distance if all the other stations were not broadcasting. Even with all the other stations on that frequency anyway, I guess it was possible their signal could have been there at times but I just couldn't sort it out with all the other stations?

I'd be almost certain that, if KFRC were the only station on 610 at night, you could have heard it in Philadelphia. In the early days of the expanded band, expanded-band stations running only 1kw could be heard coast-to-coast. (until stations signed on on the same frequency on the other coast!)

And yes, I would suggest that even today, KFRC's signal is present in Philadelphia every night. It's just that you'll never hear it under all the interference from all the other 610 stations.

 

[radioman148]

In 1996 in the early days of the expanded band I heard 1640 in Vallejo, Ca every night in the Chicago area.
They were only running 1KW, but there was no other station on the frequency.

 

[davideduardo]

In 1996 in the early days of the expanded band I heard 1640 in Vallejo, Ca every night in the Chicago area.
They were only running 1KW, but there was no other station on the frequency.

Before the US put multiple stations on the X Band, many DXers in the US heard Argentine X Banders with between 500 watts and 10 kw. Empty channels and decent conditions will allow fairly low power to travel huge distances.

 

[gar hi]

If a 5kw signal is able to travel across the country, shouldn't a 50kw do it much better? Like I've said, there's little clutter on 640 but I still have yet to hear KFI here in Tampa. I would think the signal would not only be something to hear but it would also be consistent. There was mention of the 1kw station on 1640 from Northern California being heard in Chicago but isn't that also a function of it being that high on the dial too?
BTW, my brother lives in Hawaii now and says many of the 50kw stations from LA and SF including 640 come in good at night there but then again, it's over ocean.

 

[w9wi]

If a 5kw signal is able to travel across the country, shouldn't a 50kw do it much better? Like I've said, there's little clutter on 640 but I still have yet to hear KFI here in Tampa. I would think the signal would not only be something to hear but it would also be consistent. There was mention of the 1kw station on 1640 from Northern California being heard in Chicago but isn't that also a function of it being that high on the dial too?

Yes, a 50kw would do it much better -- but even on 640 you have a LOT of interference to deal with.

Today, on 640, there are 18 stations in the mainland U.S. and Canada authorized to operate at night. In 1967 there were only two. (I suppose you could argue Newfoundland isn't the mainland in which case the figures are 17 and *one*, KFI)

I think if you keep trying with a decent radio and antenna, you will eventually hear KFI in Tampa. I would suggest your chances of hearing KFRC are pretty close to zero.

 

[davideduardo]

If a 5kw signal is able to travel across the country, shouldn't a 50kw do it much better? Like I've said, there's little clutter on 640 but I still have yet to hear KFI here in Tampa. I would think the signal would not only be something to hear but it would also be consistent. There was mention of the 1kw station on 1640 from Northern California being heard in Chicago but isn't that also a function of it being that high on the dial too?

Yes, a 50kw would do it much better -- but even on 640 you have a LOT of interference to deal with.

Today, on 640, there are 18 stations in the mainland U.S. and Canada authorized to operate at night. In 1967 there were only two. (I suppose you could argue Newfoundland isn't the mainland in which case the figures are 17 and *one*, KFI)

I think if you keep trying with a decent radio and antenna, you will eventually hear KFI in Tampa. I would suggest your chances of hearing KFRC are pretty close to zero.

At a Tampa location, the dozens of stations from a few hundred watts to 100 kw on 640 in Mexico, the Caribbean and Central and South America are also a factor.

 

[gar hi]

It's a little after 1pm and I was doing a little daytime scan of the AM dial. I can get WWL 870 fron New Orleans! That's about 480 miles. The Gulf sure helps with that.

 

[gar hi]

At a Tampa location, the dozens of stations from a few hundred watts to 100 kw on 640 in Mexico, the Caribbean and Central and South America are also a factor.

Whenever I listen though, I can hear only two stations on 640. One is from here in Florida and it's rather weak. They play old music, so I can identify that one. The other is from Cuba or Mexico and stronger but not too strong.. Now there's what sounds like a third one but it's so weak and never strong enough to understand. It sounds like all talk.

 

[schmave]

The "problem" with WSAI-1530, just 60 miles away from their transmitter in Northern KY is the fact that their sky and ground wave signals "mix" during the daytime (especially in the winter season) causing very distorted reception at relatively "short" distances. I live in Lexington, KY and have also have lived in Englewood, OH (NW of Dayton) and can attest to this problem with 1530's signal. WLW-700 and WKRC-550 are both "rock solid" at 60-75 miles North and South of Cincinnati during the day. Now, I will grant you, WSAI has a great skywave signal at night in the SE and Eastern areas of the U.S. where their main pattern favors.

Another good example that affirms what I have observed:

Right now (11 AM Saturday morning), I am listening to WSM-650 out of Nashville, TN. They are delivering a rock solid signal...no distortion, no fading. WLAC-1510, on the other hand, from the same city also with 50,000 watts Non-Directional Daytime is very weak with severe fading, distortion and with other weak stations on 1510 mixing in with it. Yes, ocassionally, it will rise up out of the noise when the skywave dominates the ground wave (fading), but it is not "listenable" at my location during the day.

Even in Columbus 550 (during the day) and 700 are extremely solid. Hearing cancellation on WLW at any time of the year is a rarity until you get well east or north of the metro. I've tried listening to 1530 during the day in Columbus and you have to crank your volume up very high to listen. It's not even a big powerhouse at night there despite its dial position.

 

[radioman148]

BTW, my brother lives in Hawaii now and says many of the 50kw stations from LA and SF including 640 come in good at night there but then again, it's over ocean.

I visited Hawaii last winter and west coast stations are easy catches from Seattle to San Diego. Even KSL in Salt Lake City came in nicely and that's well inland from the coast.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Even in Columbus 550 (during the day) and 700 are extremely solid. Hearing cancellation on WLW at any time of the year is a rarity until you get well east or north of the metro. I've tried listening to 1530 during the day in Columbus and you have to crank your volume up very high to listen. It's not even a big powerhouse at night there despite its dial position.

At one time I had a good AM car radio. The radio quit working, but the car was almost shot anyway.

My favorite music was on 550, but in the winter in North Carolina when I would drive home at dark, I could hear WKRC.

 

[LKidd]

I have a great example of the difference between the low and high ends of the AM dial.

In central Kansas, there are 5KW stations on 550 (KFRM Salina) and 1590 (KVGB Great Bend). KFRM uses a three tower DA with the towers just over 300 feet, well below a quarter wavelength. Desipte this, it's possible to hear it from the Missouri border west into eastern Colorado, and from the Nebraska border to past Oklahoma City. The towers are about 40 miles north of Salina, and the city grade extends on the DA past Hutchinson, some 50 miles the other direction from Salina. KVGB is non-directional during the day with a quarter wave tower (a classic self supporting one by the way) and their signal isn't real great beyond about 70 miles or so. Remember, ground conductivity is very hot around here, which also accounts for the distances.

 

[BIGSTICK]

Plus, it is flat as a pancake. 8)

 

[KR4BD]

Plus, it is flat as a pancake. 8)

Not so. I drive the entire length of Kansas at least once a year and find it has many significantly hilly areas along I-70 through much of the Central part of the state. Also, Flatness is not extremely critical for AM propagation but is a big factor for FM propagation.

I am always impressed with the coverage of the following "low AM dial postion" stations through Kansas: KWMT-540, KFRM-550, WNAX-570, KLOE-730, KXXX-790, etc. Tremedous ground conductivity in this area!

 

[icybluelake]

Plus, it is flat as a pancake. 8)

I am always impressed with the coverage of the following "low AM dial postion" stations through Kansas: KWMT-540, KFRM-550, WNAX-570, KLOE-730, KXXX-790, etc. Tremedous ground conductivity in this area!

Tremendous indeed. But as to the strength of a signal at 540, I can hear KWMT most nights from 160 miles away, when it's broadcasting (supposedly) at 170 watts or so, and covering 50kW CBK out of Regina, Saskatchewan. Granted, that's a nighttime catch, but still, on a much higher frequency, that would be hard to imagine. CBK does roll in occasionally however.