I think cable compaines should place the sub channel of the main station on regular cable right next to the main network or near it somewhere. Why should we need a cable box to watch something that is free over the air. If you can watch the main channel without the digital cable box then we should be able to see the sub channel(s) also.
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Digital Sub Channels
- Thread starter radiolives
- Start date
I did an article on the DTV transition a couple of months ago, and it seemed that the primary concern from cable operators was bandwidth. The one I spoke to said that the station has the bandwidth in place to carry their local channels in digital, but also carrying the subchannels would effectively double their bandwidth needs. It may be feasible in larger markets, but it might take some time to see the subchannels in medium and smaller markets.
whitfm said:
The overall bandwidth available to an OTA station is fixed at what will fit in a 6MHz channel - 19.2MBPS. It shouldn't take a cable operator any more than 19.2MBPS of bandwidth to carry all of the subchannels broadcast by any OTA digital station.
What I suspect.....
is that many operators are giving OTA stations less than the 19.2MBPS broadcast - and cannot fit both the main channel and all the subs without reducing quality to the point of losing HD subscribers.
But cable companies such as Cox Cable Connecticut. They have 3 local infomation for the towns the cable company is serving plus Cox has their own sports network which is not needed. All they need to do is combine two of those local info channels into one leaving just two channels. And then dumping the cox sports networks which is mostly info ads.
I would say they could place Eyewitness News Now on cable 2 moving WFSB main to cable 3 (once analog goes off) and NBC Plus on channel 7 moving WTNH to 8 (once analog goes off) as the over air messes with the singnal.
I would say they could place Eyewitness News Now on cable 2 moving WFSB main to cable 3 (once analog goes off) and NBC Plus on channel 7 moving WTNH to 8 (once analog goes off) as the over air messes with the singnal.
Ken said:
You know who's fault that is? Your town representatives!
These guys browbeat the cable company each time the franchise agreement with the municipality comes up and part of their "deal-making" involves forcing the cable company to have municipal channels. One such channel isn't necessarily unreasonable, but many communities get out of hand requiring 3 such channels - none of which ever show anything worth seeing. As much disdain as I often have for the cable companies and their monopolistic ways, we can't blame them on this one....it's not their fault. And, nowhere in America is this phenomenon worse than in New England with their Town Councils.
In Jackson, TN Charter carries one of WLJT PBS 11's subchannels as part of their Digital Home package, which is extended basic plus 8 digital tier channels. WLJT also has a second subchannel that isn't carried by Charter. As for the other local stations there isn't much of anything on the subchannels that would be worth wasting a channel on the cable system at the present time. WBBJ ABC 7 has a weather radar map with the NOAA weather radio audio on one subchannel, while the other is the same as the main channel except with SAP audio when it's available. At other times it has the same NOAA audio as the channel with the radar map, which makes no sense at all. At the present time WJKT Fox 16 doesn't even have a subchannel. At one time Charter had Telemundo Nashville in the digital tier, which is a subchannel for WSMV in Nashville, but that was dropped along with the main station recently. I doubt seriously if Charter will ever carry any subchannels from any of the Memphis stations that are on the system.
Since WSMV and WTVF in Nashville have been dropped by Charter in Jackson, channels 4 and 6 are open, and if any subchannels were to be put there the most sensible ones would be WLJT's which is in the Digital Home Package currently, and WBBJ's weather radar. If some other networks like RTN or This TV were to be picked up by a local station I'd like to see Charter add them, but I'm not holding my breath.
Since WSMV and WTVF in Nashville have been dropped by Charter in Jackson, channels 4 and 6 are open, and if any subchannels were to be put there the most sensible ones would be WLJT's which is in the Digital Home Package currently, and WBBJ's weather radar. If some other networks like RTN or This TV were to be picked up by a local station I'd like to see Charter add them, but I'm not holding my breath.
JeeperOne
Banned
Heh. You CLEARLY haven't seen the cable lineup for Denver, Colorado. The last government entity to get in the game (And this was JUST LAST LEAR) was the State Of Colorado. They only only took up one channel.BRNout said:
There are SEVERAL channels with Denver's name in it somewhere.
There's no question the franchise agreements need to be modified whereas the content being provided is worth the bandwidth. Afterall, isn't that why the satellite carriers refused to carry those channels to their local subscribers in their first place? Me thinks so.....
I may be missing out on Denver City Council Meetings on TV, but it ain't like I can't [url=http://www.denvergov.org/denver8tv]watch them on the Internet]. The last government entity to get in the game (And this was JUST LAST LEAR) was the State Of Colorado. They only only took up one channel.
There are SEVERAL channels with Denver's name in it somewhere.
There's no question the franchise agreements need to be modified whereas the content being provided is worth the bandwidth. Afterall, isn't that why the satellite carriers refused to carry those channels to their local subscribers in their first place? Me thinks so.....
I may be missing out on Denver City Council Meetings on TV, but it ain't like I can't [url=http://www.denvergov.org/denver8tv]watch them on the Internet either. They just won't be in HD.
Just my opinion....
Cheers
Pat
Another one of the issues may be nothing more than a sales thing to some cable operators. Since many stations are carrying local weather on their subchannels, it might not make good business sense to cable operators to carry such channels. Where I live, the cable operator offers a cheap "LifeLine" package which includes only the local channels. If they added the local weather subchannels, they would effectively give people an excuse not to subscribe to the regular cable package--which includes The Weather Channel. The same could be said for the Retro Television Network--good programming, but a potential negative when TV Land is part of a more expensive cable package.
In late October (after whining for three months that they were mistreated), the public access channels on Charter in Wisconsin moved to the 990 tier. It actually helped add audience for many channels (West Bend public access channels can be viewed in Sheboygan and vice versa, for instance), but for some of them, it didn't really help at all.
In Sheboygan, we have two cities west of us, Sheboygan Falls and Kohler. In Sheboygan, we get a public access channel which at least has some use; it transmits from the UW campus, has a filled schedule and when there's nothing on, they air Free Speech TV. But the Kohler and Falls governments wanted their own channels...
Which never air anything. You tune to Kohler's channel, and all they air is a picture of the village hall. That's it. No village meetings or messages from Herbie Kohler (owner of the bathroom company of the same name), just that picture of Kohler Village Hall 24/7 with no audio. It's a complete waste of bandwidth.
Then you get Sheboygan Falls's channel, and you just want to weep for them. They do air city council meetings, but that's only 90 minutes a week. Otherwise for the other 166 1/2 hours, you get community billboard information (mostly senior center and school lunch menus) which is rendered on a bulletin board computer which I think is run on an Atari 2600; it is a system used way back in the 80's by many local cable companies. Jagged old all-caps fonts, harsh flashing, and again, no background music (you should see how a web address is rendered in this system). You figure they could get Charter to air this channel, and not pick up a $100 garage sale PC to crank out a Powerpoint of the bulletin board messages?
When public access is utilized well, it's a godsend and a great example of what a cable company should do for their community. When it's totally wasted, it doesn't need to be on the air at all.
whitfm said:
Not only that but cable companies are wary to give local stations even more space for more channels because the local stations compete with cable for local advertising.
For example in NJ, it can be expensive to buy ad time on a NY or Philly network station. Comcast can enjoy selling time to the small time guys. Add small local TV stations on the lineup with some popular programming (not just paid religious) and they wind up competing directly against Comcast.
This was actually one reason Comcast pushed for Atlantic City based WMGM 40 (NBC) off analog lineup in Vineland, NJ. It moved from Ch.21 to Ch.99 to Ch. 247 within a period of 4 years. Comcast argued that the Wildwood city of license was farther from Vineland than Philadelphia but the distance was actually the same. City of license applies in case of duplication as WMGM carries NBC programming also seen on WCAU 10. WMGM TV still claims Cumberland County in their viewing area, and has pushed for DirecTV and Dish Network carriage (still pending) to make up for the loss that Comcast is trying to squeeze them out.
Because of the city of license issue, Comcast has to carry WGAL 8 in Reading, PA on Ch.8 since Lancaster is closer to Reading than Philadelphia. But WGAL pretty much markets itself for just Harrisburg, Lebanon York Lancaster as it originates from that market.
On digital, there are fewer viewers, meaning the sub channels station effect is marginal, and it occupies less space. Since yes these are mostly free (esp. with PBS subchannels), its a no brainer to put them on digital.
It's already bad enough in my area TCM, TruTV and GSN moved from analog to digital, while the price for full cable increased. Cable company needed more space. The encouragement is go digital and get digital boxes for every tv, and bundle with phone and internet. Yeah, but I can go to Fios at that point.
At some point, analog cable is going away. Verizon already did it and I assume Comcast cannot be far behind so, we're all going to have digital cable and need boxes or a TV that has the ablility to receive digital cable TV. It then doesn't matter is the subchannels are in the teen or 200s where Comcast has them or in the 400s where Verizon puts them.
Bill_W said:
Didn't even know Verizon ever was analog -- I though they were digital from the get-go, with FTTP technology.
Bill_W said:
I heard that Comcast's Chicago system was already all-digital.
Bill_W said:
Almost every cable company I know of has subchannels in the triple digits and the main signals most major local channels sporting one or two-digit numbers. I think this will continue in the near future, analog or no analog.
azumanga said:
My understanding is that this is true of their systems within the City of Chicago (there are more than one of those), but this is not yet true in all of the suburbs. My system, based in northern Cook County, still offers analog cable.
Personally, I think that cable companies are "lying low" during this period of OTA digital transition - but most will lower the gauntlet and go all digital within the next 1-2 years. Right now, they're selling the idea that they've "got your back" through the transition and - as long as you have cable - you have no worries about losing your TV. It's a great marketing campaign, actually....and it's true. So, it wouldn't do to complicate things by throwing in a digital conversion on cable at the same time.
After the proverbial dust settles, of course, then these transitions will move forward full-speed. Doing so is advantageous to them in that they get more bandwidth by losing analogue AND they obtain extra revenue by changing people a monthly fee for digital cable boxes and remotes. Win-win for them as most people's cable-ready TVs won't accommodate digital cable without the box. And they know it.
Anything that guys like Comcast and Time-Warner can do to get a few extra bucks per subscriber will be done as soon as they think they can get away with it.
BRNout said:
For awhile (18 months?) they're required by the FCC to deliver all must-carry signals to subscribers with analog TVs at no additional charge.
There are two ways to comply with this:
- Leave analog cable operating. (but you only have to carry the OTA signals)
- Give everyone a cable box. (I *have* heard of systems doing this)
There was supposed to be some kind of proceeding going on that would require cable operators to support cable-ready DTVs and subscriber-purchased boxes. I don't know what happened to that...
This time last year I was being told that Charter in Jackson, TN would be all digital by this year by one of their service men that was at my house. So far this hasn't happened though. They have moved several channels to the digital tier, and most of them are in what is called the Digital Home package, which I talked about earlier. I expect them to gradually continue to keep moving more channels into the digital tier until only the local stations are available in analog.
As for digital tuners, I believe that cable systems should be required to supply at least some sort of basic tuner at no extra charge once they have gone all digital. But then they'll probably raise rates to make up for it. I've also wondered why that some sort of basic digital tuner for cable couldn't be made available in stores without having to go through the cable system. I asked if anything like that was available here a while back but never got an answer, so I assumed they don't exist, at least for now.
As for digital tuners, I believe that cable systems should be required to supply at least some sort of basic tuner at no extra charge once they have gone all digital. But then they'll probably raise rates to make up for it. I've also wondered why that some sort of basic digital tuner for cable couldn't be made available in stores without having to go through the cable system. I asked if anything like that was available here a while back but never got an answer, so I assumed they don't exist, at least for now.
Here in GSO NC we do have some of the sub-channels. It's mainly UNC-TV. UNC-TV has OTA their main service, which is supposedly in HD, and UNC-KD (PBS Kids fare programmed by them) and UNC-NC (NC-based programming). TW Cable carries these in their digital tier, plus UNC-ED (Educational) and UNC-HD (HD-only stream). The only four other broadcasters to have active sub-channels - well two have them carried (WFMY's weather channel thingy and WXII's weather channel thingy)... but WGPX and WLXI (Ion and TBN) don't have their extra channels carried at all.
So it's a bit hit/miss here with TW-Cable and sub-channels.
Mark.
So it's a bit hit/miss here with TW-Cable and sub-channels.
Mark.
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