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Do radio People Understand Compression?

At one cluster, we have one main production guy for an AM and FM. He is in his mid 30's and is a smart guy. But on a number of occasions, I have educated him on sound. For instance, he has a set of JBL's sitting right in front of him, in his production studio. The model is a two way with no adjustments for mids or highs. One day, while troubleshooting something in his studio, I noticed major frequency loss in the mids. I said to the guy, "how can you stand listening to that?" Well since he was so used to those speakers, I simply bought an EQ and re-tailored the frequency response of the speaker, bringing back in the mids that were missing. I used some Tom Petty (since Tom's vocal range is the same that was lower in the mix) material to demonstrate to the Production guy how much lower the mids were compared to the lows and highs. I asked him "do you now realize what part of the audio spectrum was missing?" More and more he would understand what good audio sounded like.

I don't know if everyone else can instantly hear phase reverse like me, but one day, I walked into the guy's studio, as he wanted me to hear a piece of production he did. I told him let me sit in his position, to hear exactly what he is hearing. I sat down and said immediately, "why are these speakers out of phase!?" I also said, how did they get this way? I reversed the phase on one speaker and sat down to listen to his production again. I said how long have you been listening to these that way? I sat him down and asked him "do you hear a difference?" He did. Little things like that go a long way in my opinion. Now he calls me into to his studio when he hears hums, buzzes and RFI and asks me, should those be there, and I am OK with that.

I am sometimes amazed at what passes as quality audio these days on FM. Here is one other example. There is a radio station, that isn't owned by the company I work for, but is semi-local, and I listen to it on occasion, sometimes with headphones, at home. I hadn't listened to them in awhile, but all of a sudden started listening to them on a regular basis. I noticed over a period of 2 or 3 months that their audio would go to mono for 2 or 3 commercials or songs, then back to stereo for 1 or 2 songs, then back to mono for 1 song, and so on and so forth. There was never a fixed pattern though. Since I was usually busy, I didn't give it much thought. After about 3 months I thought something is definitely wrong here, as I had noticed on many occasions, my stereo light never went out when the mono material would play. I am on their fringe, but still have very good signal strength. One day I called up their morning guy and asked him what the board setup was, and did he have the capability to put anything in mono. I used to have some Auditronics series 800 consoles, which I loved, even though, right off the factory line, they started popping/frying a particular chip every 2 months or so. Each module channel was very flexible. If I remember, you had a L and R button to form stereo. Both had to be pushed to feed each channel to air. If for instance, the L button was disengaged, the R would feed both stereo channels, and now you only had half of the normal stereo audio on the air. So many times I would be driving down the street listening to our station, call up the jock and say "just by chance, are one of the L or R buttons up on that fader?" As always was the case, one was. So many times, copy would fall on one of the switches, disengaging it, and it may sit there like that an entire weekend or week. That board had a lot of buttons on it, but I still loved them, with 3 stereo busses, and 2 mono busses. We purchased 2 of the last 3 off the line before Auditronics was sold to Wheatstone. Getting back to my other story, I called this morning show guy on this other station I was listening to, and asked him about his board setup. He said, as far as he could tell, nothing was in mono, but to send him an email the next time I heard it. Well 2 commercials later, the email went out. After a number of emails between him and I, and now sometimes the GM, turns out, 4 or 5 months ago, they installed a new computer in the Production studio, which by mistake, was wired mono. In that amount of time, whatever audio was being transferred to their automation system (songs and commercials), was all being transferred via mono, and other than redubbing all of it, was going to stay mono, until it was slowly corrected over time. What surprised me was how many people work at that station (I really have no idea), and no one could hear that problem, except some guy out in the fringe? Sometimes it's all very much an educational process.
 
Out of phase makes my head feel like it's turning inside out, and I can't see how it can NOT immediately
attract attention and correction.

It makes my head feel like it's being pulled into the wall, or that the sound is " all going that-a-way", which it is.

Can be useful for cancelling vocals, but in a normal "stereo" listening setup, between two speakers,
out of phase is VERY distressing to me, and I just can't listen. I have fix it or get away from the sound.

A quick-mart on the way to work has two speakers on the roof out of phase, and when I go in and out, it is
really annoying.
 
And yes, so many still don't understand that we're talking about two totally unrelated things - dynamic range compression and data compression.
My point with the level compression comment is they were opening a wav, compressing the hell out of it, then saving it as an mp3. Grit.
 
When I became PD of a small AM oldies station, I was horrified at the sound quality of some of the cuts in AudioVault. All MP2 @192 or 256, and some were dubbed from YouTube or from bootlegged CD's that sounded like garbage to begin with. Plus the levels were all over the place, so the final air product sounded different from one cut to the next.

Luckily, I had a .WAV oldies library that was pre formatted for AV, so all it took was me giving the engineer a hard drive and overwriting the existing file-names and, viola, no more artifacts! I can understand MP2 cuts a decade ago...but now?

Now my next pet peeve - dubbing spots/songs/imaging in analog into the Vault. D to A then back to D. Oy.
 
Tom Wells said:
Out of phase makes my head feel like it's turning inside out, and I can't see how it can NOT immediately
attract attention and correction.
It makes my head feel like it's being pulled into the wall, or that the sound is " all going that-a-way", which it is.
Can be useful for cancelling vocals, but in a normal "stereo" listening setup, between two speakers,
out of phase is VERY distressing to me, and I just can't listen. I have fix it or get away from the sound.
A quick-mart on the way to work has two speakers on the roof out of phase, and when I go in and out, it is
really annoying.

I hear it a lot in my travels and it's damn awful - so many people just don't understand that speakers need to be connected properly! The strange thing is, most people don't 'hear' it - or it just doesn't seem to worry them!
Most commonly I hear it in pawn shops, where they might have a dozen stereo systems on display but only one wired up
and running - to provide some background music in store. The people that work in these places are usually none too bright and
certainly nowhere near being of a technical background.
The first thing I instinctively do is head for rear of the offending set-up to see if I can swap one of the speaker cables over!
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to get too far off the subject. My point was, workers at radio stations need to basically know what good problem free high fidelity (haven't heard that used in a while) audio sounds like, otherwise, if they don't, they may not realize the rewards of utilizing .wav files, compared to MP2 and MP3 files. I'm not sure just demanding and dictating that everything gets saved as a .wav file will guarantee that that process gets used unconditionally. If the worker can hear the difference too, that might be more effective. I was pointing out that from my experience, some key people working with audio at radio stations on a daily basis, don't know sometimes what good, problem free, clean, high bitrate audio sounds like. Granted, some of the top market radio stations have some of the best equipment, but there are still plenty of facilities out there that don't.
 
Brian Bowers said:
Sorry, I didn't mean to get too far off the subject. My point was, workers at radio stations need to basically know what good problem free high fidelity (haven't heard that used in a while) audio sounds like, otherwise, if they don't, they may not realize the rewards of utilizing .wav files, compared to MP2 and MP3 files. I'm not sure just demanding and dictating that everything gets saved as a .wav file will guarantee that that process gets used unconditionally. If the worker can hear the difference too, that might be more effective. I was pointing out that from my experience, some key people working with audio at radio stations on a daily basis, don't know sometimes what good, problem free, clean, high bitrate audio sounds like. Granted, some of the top market radio stations have some of the best equipment, but there are still plenty of facilities out there that don't.

Brian,

I agree with some of that. Demanding and dictating is part of the game too, because some people simply can not 'hear' the good audio. At least they don't knowingly play a part in a poor audio chain when they are forced to save things linear. There has to be a set of rules and standards at a facility, because everyone hears things a little differently.

What you think is mastered perfectly may sound like utter crap to me... However, we all know lossy compression is bad, so if we eliminate or keep it to a bare minimum, things improve to some extent.

It's no different than when I walked in my owners office the other day and asked him if he had ran his backup lately. He asked why and I said 'You can't hear the bearings screeching on your hard drive?' to which he said 'No'. I could hear it 10 feet away from the computer...
 
As noted above, one of my pet peeves is hearing an AM music station running only one channel of stereo audio as their mono signal. I especially notice this on oldies stations. If you play a Beatles song, it should be fairly obvious that half the song is missing. I guess in simulcast situations, too often folks ignore what's happening on the AM side. I've got to say that wouldn't happen on my watch!
 
boiseengineer said:
We've also got a couple people that run files through Audition and level compress the hell out of them.
Wall-o-sound garbage+++.
Don't forget about the people who record something that's timed a few seconds wrong and instead of manually taking out parts of pauses and some breaths to make it exactly :30 or :60, use time stretch to make it fit.
 
In my experience that lack of understanding exists universally wherever digital technology reaches critical mass. Take, for example, another field in which I'm experienced: photography.

Every film photographer knows that you lose detail every time you copy an image. However, they've been told that digital technology fixes all that. I've come across working professional photographers who did not understand that loading a JPG file, editing it slightly, and resaving it resulted in a loss of detail due to the file being recompressed.
 
I have a related war-story that come from the photography world.

I began in the broadcasting industry when everything was tubes, and I studied schematics and read about equipment until I had a good understanding how limiting and compression was achieved and could visualize in my mind where the voltages and currents used to achieve limiting and compression came from and where they went to do their work.

I was away from broadcasting during the years digital processing was being developed. I acquired software that supposedly would do all these things and found controls that used familiar terms like threshold and attack time and the software was extremely frustrating. I tried adjusting the controls and nothing happened they way I thought it should. I expected the digital world to respond to my mental picture of voltages and currents in an analog world.

Then last year I was trying to learn to use a new piece of software in the digital photography world and the controls marked contrast and brightness were not responding the way my mind remembered things working when I used chemicals and trays and an enlarger. In my quest for understanding I came across some outspoken conspiracy-theory kind of guy with a good command of all the technical jargon of digital photo manipulation. I think he was just a little bit nutso, but he made a very convincing argument that when you use Adobe Photoshop Elements today, and it says you are adjusting CONTRAST, something else is actually being adjusted, because that algorithm is easier for the programmers to work with. He agruged that when you are adjusting BRIGHTNESS, something else is actually being adjusted because the algorithm is easier for the programmers to work with.

Whatever the reason, there are tons of us out here just wildly dragging various sliders from side to side until we get a picture that responds somewhat like we were hoping for.

And I'm a GEARHEAD who has done programming, including mainframes. The latest generation of audio software and image software leave me frustrated at times.

Why would we think it would be easy to convince non-gearheads that repeated conversion to-and-from mp3 and jpg are going to "sand down the edges of the fine detail" in audio files and image files?
 
Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:
Why would we think it would be easy to convince non-gearheads that repeated conversion to-and-from mp3 and jpg are going to "sand down the edges of the fine detail" in audio files and image files?

I grew up with digital audio being the norm, not the exception (I had a Rio MP3 player around 2000), and I learned about compression artifacts when I used to drop the bitrate on songs in Cool Edit to get more on the player (Hmm...why does this sound funny?).

Some people have ears and notice the details...others need to be enlightened. "Digital" as been used as a marketing term to mean "better than" for decades now, so its no wonder that most think that a MP3 @ 128 is just as good as a 44.1/WAV. I would run it thru some processing to show the flaws in MP3 encoding...and why we don't allow iPods or MP3's for playback on air :)
 
I have found the solution (for me). I increased the AGC Window Size in my Optimod, and then made my mic processing (which is most likely to be out of level) a bit more aggressive. Definitely sounds better and it is only a 'small' sacrifice in mic quality. Since I play way more music that talking, I see it to be an acceptable trade off.

As I listen for a day or so, I will let you know how I feel about it and of course share my settings with anyone interested.

I am happier with this than I was the declipper. I suppose it is all about picking your trade off.
 
I remember seeing "digital ready" speakers and "digital ready" headphones in the local stores as CDs became the norm... for so many people, digital technology is all magic dust and secret incantations... ::)
 
Turnpike Tuner said:
Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:
Why would we think it would be easy to convince non-gearheads that repeated conversion to-and-from mp3 and jpg are going to "sand down the edges of the fine detail" in audio files and image files?

I grew up with digital audio being the norm, not the exception (I had a Rio MP3 player around 2000), and I learned about compression artifacts when I used to drop the bitrate on songs in Cool Edit to get more on the player (Hmm...why does this sound funny?).

Some people have ears and notice the details...others need to be enlightened. "Digital" as been used as a marketing term to mean "better than" for decades now, so its no wonder that most think that a MP3 @ 128 is just as good as a 44.1/WAV. I would run it thru some processing to show the flaws in MP3 encoding...and why we don't allow iPods or MP3's for playback on air :)

I came up in radio as lossy compression became the standard for automation. I noticed when we went from CD's to Digilink 3, how bad the music on hard drive sounded. Compared to the Digilink, we then went to a SCSI based Audiovault AV100 system with MPEGII 3.2:1 Compression. It was like night and day to the Digilink ADPCM. It made us sound like a million bucks. Later, I would transition our stations to Vault 2 and as hard drive prices dropped, we re-ripped our inventory from the source as .wav.

I noticed the difference at each turn. I still can't believe I programmed a #1 station in my market on a Digilink 3. We sounded so bad compared to everyone else...
 
Turnpike Tuner said:
"Digital" as been used as a marketing term to mean "better than" for decades now, so its no wonder that most think that a MP3 @ 128 is just as good as a 44.1/WAV.

I think this hits the nail on the head...

You only need to read iBiquity's website and the "CD-like digital audio quality" and "digital clarity" claims for HD Radio to see how blatantly 'digital' has been used to misinform and misrepresent coded audio, by the marketing people.


Regards,
Goran Tomas
 
I'm working on digital smell compression for an iphone app now..
 
Goran Tomas said:
You only need to read iBiquity's website and the "CD-like digital audio quality" and "digital clarity" claims for HD Radio to see how blatantly 'digital' has been used to misinform and misrepresent coded audio, by the marketing people.

Don't even need to go to their website. Just turn on your favorite Clear Channel station and wait for the next stopset. I'm sure you'll hear something about HD radio.

My experience with HD is limited to rental cars, but the audio quality I've heard from this "digital" service ranks somewhere just above 64 kbps MP3.
 
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