Do You Really Care About Radio?

[oldies76]

When folks call in for the request hour, they always, and I mean always request the same stuff that was played sometimes an hour before, or within the same day. Chicago's 25 or 6 to 4, Lynyrd Skynyrd of any variety as long as its Sweet Home Alabama or Free Bird, America's Sister Golden Hair or Horse With No Name, Looking Glass's Brandy, etc, ad nauseum.

What does this prove? Probably nothing as its just what I've heard this week, but either the people who call in just switched the radio on and called in their request not knowing this stuff was already played eight times this week just between 8AM and 6PM, or they all like the same played over stuff and can't get enough of it.

Well, did you ever think that if radio ONLY played the same "hundreds" of songs over and over again weekly, monthy and yearly, that maybe, just maybe the listeners have become USED to hearing only those songs and really, have forgotton the others (so-called stiffs, lower charters..etc..). In other words, radio has played these songs so much, that the listeners accept these, and only these. These songs get tested over and over, since those are the cuts that only get aired to begin with. Sort of a "brainwash" in a way.

That's when the "Oh Wow, love this song, haven't heard this in years, reminds me of our date back in '77" type reactions come in, when "new oldies" are introduced among the usual cuts.

Sorry, but station stagnation is a turn-off, gotta fresh it up with new tunes every so often. Classic hit stations should play just that......classic hits.

 

[TheBigA]

Sorry, but station stagnation is a turn-off, gotta fresh it up with new tunes every so often. Classic hit stations should play just that......classic hits.

But you don't want classic hits. You want them to add in songs that never were hits, just because someone might like it. That's bad programming.

 

[nocomradio]

Well, did you ever think that if radio ONLY played the same "hundreds" of songs over and over again weekly, monthy and yearly, that maybe, just maybe the listeners have become USED to hearing only those songs and really, have forgotton the others (so-called stiffs, lower charters..etc..). In other words, radio has played these songs so much, that the listeners accept these, and only these. These songs get tested over and over, since those are the cuts that only get aired to begin with. Sort of a "brainwash" in a way.

That's when the "Oh Wow, love this song, haven't heard this in years, reminds me of our date back in '77" type reactions come in, when "new oldies" are introduced among the usual cuts.

Sorry, but station stagnation is a turn-off, gotta fresh it up with new tunes every so often. Classic hit stations should play just that......classic hits.

I believe that may be true. Especially when you think about the number of younger folks who didn't grow up with many of those artists as I did and only know what they've heard on the OTA radio. Even when they go to YouTube, or download a song like that, it isn't the same as buying an album and hearing all the rest of the stuff by that artist. The radio certainly won't play much else other than the one or two hits, so yes, it probably is a case of people not knowing there is anything else to listen to. How would they, unless they actively seek it out, or they happen to hear it on a "deep cuts" sort of show?

I just remember radio being much different back in the 60's and 70's. There was more variety, there was more exposure to music that wasn't just a Top 40 hit. It did happen, and I am not imagining it. When a new album was released, it was touted, profiled and played. The DJ many times had an interest in it and loved the music. You could hear enthusiasm. Now, like so many things, it has become an industry where the passion is lost. I know you need to make a profit, and to do that you need money coming in. I fully understand that, as no business can function without cashflow and stay in business. But when the passion leaves, it really makes things bland as people show up 9-5 and just get through another day, week, year, etc. It is reflected in the end product very clearly.

 

[TheBigA]

I just remember radio being much different back in the 60's and 70's. There was more variety, there was more exposure to music that wasn't just a Top 40 hit. It did happen, and I am not imagining it.

It depends. Rick Sklar, who was program director of WABC during the 60s and 70s, wrote a very good book called Rockin' America, and he went into a lot of detail about his music decisions. If you read that book, you'll see the playlist was pretty tight. There's a lot of material about the RKO stations, and it's pretty similar.

Here's the thing to understand: The 1960s and 70s were pre-FM expansion. There were fewer radio stations, so you had "full service AMs," and those stations covered more formats than pop. So it was not unusual to have everything from The Beatles and The Monkees to Al Hirt, Johnny Cash and Buck Owens, Frank Sinatra, and the singing nuns all being played on the same station. That ended in the late 70s when there were more radio stations for format specialization.

 

[LKellerIII]

I just remember radio being much different back in the 60's and 70's. There was more variety, there was more exposure to music that wasn't just a Top 40 hit. It did happen, and I am not imagining it.

It depends. Rick Sklar, who was program director of WABC during the 60s and 70s, wrote a very good book called Rockin' America, and he went into a lot of detail about his music decisions. If you read that book, you'll see the playlist was pretty tight. There's a lot of material about the RKO stations, and it's pretty similar.

Here's the thing to understand: The 1960s and 70s were pre-FM expansion. There were fewer radio stations, so you had "full service AMs," and those stations covered more formats than pop. So it was not unusual to have everything from The Beatles and The Monkees to Al Hirt, Johnny Cash and Buck Owens, Frank Sinatra, and the singing nuns all being played on the same station. That ended in the late 70s when there were more radio stations for format specialization.

Rose colored glasses. I grew up in a big market - Los Angeles - and the top station was KHJ, which had a very tight 30 hit playlist plus a few "Hitbounds." They would also play recurrents and "goldens" (Oldies no more than maybe 8 years old. But the play list was pretty tight and repetitive. By the late 60s, competing Top 40 stations like KRLA would counter-program KHJ with a longer playlist and a few album cuts, but if you listened over any half-hour, the play list still seemed pretty tight, and they always ran behind KHJ in the ratings battle.

By the late 60s, the emerging FM rock stations (KPPC, KMET) started with unlimited play lists, but within a few years, they had tightened up. The top FM station in the early 70s was KLOS, which was a hybrid Top 40/album rock station with a tight play list, though perhaps not as tight as the AMs.

The Bay Area equivalents were KFRC for KHJ, KYA for KRLA, and KSAN and KMPX for KPPC and KMET.

The point is - Big A is right - even in those days, the stations with tight play lists oriented toward the hits - generally won the ratings battle.

 

[landtuna]

Rose colored glasses. I grew up in a big market - Los Angeles - and the top station was KHJ, which had a very tight 30 hit playlist plus a few "Hitbounds." They would also play recurrents and "goldens" (Oldies no more than maybe 8 years old. But the play list was pretty tight and repetitive. By the late 60s, competing Top 40 stations like KRLA would counter-program KHJ with a longer playlist and a few album cuts, but if you listened over any half-hour, the play list still seemed pretty tight, and they always ran behind KHJ in the ratings battle.

By the late 60s, the emerging FM rock stations (KPPC, KMET) started with unlimited play lists, but within a few years, they had tightened up. The top FM station in the early 70s was KLOS, which was a hybrid Top 40/album rock station with a tight play list, though perhaps not as tight as the AMs.

I spent two years in El A '62-'64 and remember pre-setting between KRLA and KHJ and not a lot of difference between them then. It seemed to be whose DJ's you liked more than the other guy but the music was pretty much identical.

The Bay Area equivalents were KFRC for KHJ, KYA for KRLA, and KSAN and KMPX for KPPC and KMET.

In the north Bay Area '60-'62 the big bananas were KYA and KEWB as KFRC didn't signal well north of the Marin Headlands or on the coast near Lake Merced. In the summer of '66 KEWB left Top-40 but by that time we had several FM options, the best one being KGO-FM which was automated T-40 but had a deeper playlist than did KYA.

 

[davideduardo]

If that's the case, how did Obama get elected in 2008 on the platform of change??

In general, people don't like change unless what they "have" is not totally satisfactory or what is promised is significantly better.

 

[landtuna]

If that's the case, how did Obama get elected in 2008 on the platform of change??

Every challenger to the incumbent president offers 'change' even though it might be camouflaged in other words. It is always assumed by the challenger's campaign that the status quo is not acceptable and change of some kind is necessary. This 'change' promise also holds true in a great many other ventures as well (radio station flips for example).

 

[DavidKaye]

In the north Bay Area '60-'62 the big bananas were KYA and KEWB as KFRC didn't signal well north of the Marin Headlands or on the coast near Lake Merced. In the summer of '66 KEWB left Top-40 but by that time we had several FM options, the best one being KGO-FM which was automated T-40 but had a deeper playlist than did KYA.

Gosh, KFRC didn't reach Lake Merced nor the Marin Headlands in those earlier days. That must have been when their antenna was on the Don Lee building (1000 Van Ness, now home to the AMC cinemas). I'm thinking that must have still been a horizontal wire array rather than a vertical stick because otherwise why would a 5kw signal on 610 be so awful? It couldn't have been when they were on the KSFO tower.

Can anybody fill me in on the pre-Berkeley locations of KFRC?

 

[landtuna]

In the north Bay Area '60-'62 the big bananas were KYA and KEWB as KFRC didn't signal well north of the Marin Headlands or on the coast near Lake Merced. In the summer of '66 KEWB left Top-40 but by that time we had several FM options, the best one being KGO-FM which was automated T-40 but had a deeper playlist than did KYA.

Gosh, KFRC didn't reach Lake Merced nor the Marin Headlands in those earlier days. That must have been when their antenna was on the Don Lee building (1000 Van Ness, now home to the AMC cinemas). I'm thinking that must have still been a horizontal wire array rather than a vertical stick because otherwise why would a 5kw signal on 610 be so awful? It couldn't have been when they were on the KSFO tower.

Can anybody fill me in on the pre-Berkeley locations of KFRC?

We could get KFRC in middle Marin County but it was not static-free and had bleed-over from nearby signals. KFRC got into SW San Francisco better but its signal still wasn't as good as KYA or even KEWB.

Another alternative back then was KLOK but it had a weak signal also.

 

[michael hagerty]

I can't honestly believe they want this stuff constantly with little to no variation.

I've said this before, so forgive me. But most people are creatures of habit. They order the same beverage every night. The commute using the same route every day. They go to the same job. Come home to the same home and wife. The same stuff constantly with little to no variation. And by the way, if you ask them, they'll say they're very happy.

They visit San Francisco and eat at McDonalds.

 

[michael hagerty]

The fact about a mass audience is that they know what they like....they like what they know. And while I'd rather hear "Another Park, Another Sunday" by the Doobie Brothers instead of its original flip side ("Black Water"), I'm in a minority.

Michael, I don't want to get off-topic here, but I had the 45 of Black Water, but my copy had Song To See You Through. Are you certain about "Another Park, Another Sunday"?

Rrici: "Another Park" was issued as the A-side single in February or March of 1974. It was WB 7795. The flip was "Black Water".

"Another Park" stiffed (peaking at #32), so the label moved on and released "Eyes of Silver". It hit the wall at #52.

So...almost six months later, Warners issued "Black Water" as an A-side, rather than asking radio to dig out "Another Park" and flip it. It was issued as WB 8062, with "Song To See You Through" as the B-side.

That worked....made it to #1.

 

[michael hagerty]

Rose colored glasses. I grew up in a big market - Los Angeles - and the top station was KHJ, which had a very tight 30 hit playlist plus a few "Hitbounds." They would also play recurrents and "goldens" (Oldies no more than maybe 8 years old. But the play list was pretty tight and repetitive. By the late 60s, competing Top 40 stations like KRLA would counter-program KHJ with a longer playlist and a few album cuts, but if you listened over any half-hour, the play list still seemed pretty tight, and they always ran behind KHJ in the ratings battle.

By the late 60s, the emerging FM rock stations (KPPC, KMET) started with unlimited play lists, but within a few years, they had tightened up. The top FM station in the early 70s was KLOS, which was a hybrid Top 40/album rock station with a tight play list, though perhaps not as tight as the AMs.

I spent two years in El A '62-'64 and remember pre-setting between KRLA and KHJ and not a lot of difference between them then. It seemed to be whose DJ's you liked more than the other guy but the music was pretty much identical.

The Bay Area equivalents were KFRC for KHJ, KYA for KRLA, and KSAN and KMPX for KPPC and KMET.

In the north Bay Area '60-'62 the big bananas were KYA and KEWB as KFRC didn't signal well north of the Marin Headlands or on the coast near Lake Merced. In the summer of '66 KEWB left Top-40 but by that time we had several FM options, the best one being KGO-FM which was automated T-40 but had a deeper playlist than did KYA.

Landtuna:

KHJ wasn't Top 40 and in competition with KRLA until late April of 1965. Similarly, KFRC wasn't Top 40 until February, 1966.

 

[landtuna]

They visit San Francisco and eat at McDonalds.

I visit San Francisco and eat at Tommy's Joynt. ;D

 

[landtuna]

Landtuna:

KHJ wasn't Top 40 and in competition with KRLA until late April of 1965. Similarly, KFRC wasn't Top 40 until February, 1966.

Whatever they called themselves, they played T-40 music. But like I said, KFRC wasn't a big signal where I lived so I didn't listen to it much. I did listen to KRLA though while stationed in Long Beach.

 

[LKellerIII]

Landtuna:

KHJ wasn't Top 40 and in competition with KRLA until late April of 1965. Similarly, KFRC wasn't Top 40 until February, 1966.

Whatever they called themselves, they played T-40 music. But like I said, KFRC wasn't a big signal where I lived so I didn't listen to it much. I did listen to KRLA though while stationed in Long Beach.

KHJ was not a Top 40 station until the switch to Boss Radio in 65. Before that, KHJ played MOR music and had personality DJs (Steve Allen was one of them), though their ratings always lagged KMPC and KNX.

Similarly, KFRC was also MOR. The Bay Area Radio Museum has a 1964 air check of DJ Van Amburg (later of '''Penis found on rail road tracks, details at 11:00" fame). It's interesting as radio history, but otherwise a huge snooze fest. I can't imagine any teenage listening to KFRC prior to the Drake format in February 1966.

 

[michael hagerty]

Landtuna:

KHJ wasn't Top 40 and in competition with KRLA until late April of 1965. Similarly, KFRC wasn't Top 40 until February, 1966.

Whatever they called themselves, they played T-40 music. But like I said, KFRC wasn't a big signal where I lived so I didn't listen to it much. I did listen to KRLA though while stationed in Long Beach.

Landtuna: For L.A., could you be thinking of KFWB? 980 on the dial (next station to the right of KHJ) and they were in direct competition with KRLA at the time.

 

[nocomradio]

Rose colored glasses. I grew up in a big market - Los Angeles - ...........

Call it what you want. I grew up in and around Washington DC, mostly on the Virginia side of the river. WEAM, WPGC (1580 AM) WEEL, WOHN, WWDC, WGAY and a host of other smaller stations, and I just don't remember them in the AM heyday playing the same stuff over and over. In fact I am certain they didn't. I haven't seen any playlists from the time, but, I know what I remember and I know I listened to a LOT of radio, both in the workplace and at home, and in the truck for that matter as I drove for a time for a living then. L.A., New York, Chicago, and cities like that are a much different animal in more ways than one than Washington D.C. I think that would be comparing apples and oranges, really.

 

[PirateJohnny]

Assuming a 30 song playlist with 3 new songs added every week, from 1964 (Beatles/British Invasion) to 1975 (Disco), listeners heard 2013 songs. A 40 song playlist with 5 new songs each week gave you 3245 songs for those 11 years. If you played 14 songs per hour it would take 6 days to play 2013 songs and 9.6 days to play 3245 songs.

Who are these "test group" people? Who do they really represent? I keep listening when I hear the "O Wow!" songs but I tune out when I hear the same #1 hit song I heard two days ago.

Advertisers buy what the PPMs are listening to. If you don't have a PPM, you don't matter, you don't count.

 

[michael hagerty]

Assuming a 30 song playlist with 3 new songs added every week, from 1964 (Beatles/British Invasion) to 1975 (Disco), listeners heard 2013 songs. A 40 song playlist with 5 new songs each week gave you 3245 songs for those 11 years. If you played 14 songs per hour it would take 6 days to play 2013 songs and 9.6 days to play 3245 songs.

Couple of things to remember...a lot of those songs only survived a week or two, maybe three...stiffing somewhere in the 20s...and were gone. The audience didn't like them then and few people would remember them now.

Your rotation also assumes equal play...meaning I'm going to hear The Monkees' "D.W. Washburn" as often as I hear "Satisfaction" by the Rolling Stones. I'm going to hear "Harper Valley PTA" by Jeannie C. Reilly as often as I hear "Proud Mary" by Creedence.

And finally...25-54 is the name of the game. It's like archery...you aim for the center of the target. That's 39 and a half. So our median listener was born in April, 1973. What got played on the radio between 8 years before they were born and when they were 2 years old is completely irrelevant. They don't remember them from then. They heard them later and like them for other reasons, which is why some comparatively low-charting records are heard a lot today and some #1s never are.

The key is: What older rock-era hits do today's adults want to hear now? Period.