Do You Really Care About Radio?

[michael hagerty]

PS: I disagree with those who say Bill Drake and Boss Radio killed Top 40. But I do think he killed full service and personality MOR. There was no way a generation raised on 15 records an hour, a commercial limit of 14 minutes and jocks who got it said over intros and fades was going to age into listeners who'd tolerate six records, 18 commercial minutes, tons of jock talk and two newscasts in every hour.

I say Drake was responsible only because Blore's "Color Radio" was a lot closer to full service, but with more music (helped by a lot of records that were under three minutes). It could have been an easier transition to full service as those listeners matured.

Still, even if there'd never been a Bill Drake, there would have been a Tom Donahue, and at some point the Baby Boom generation would have experienced 10 minutes or less of commercials and long music sets in stereo.

 

[DavidKaye]

Not eligible/non-student. Read the WZRD history. I already do what I do on part 15 AM and they can hear it over at the college 3 blocks away.

If it's truly Part 15 on AM I doubt it can be heard 3 blocks away unless that distance is over water.

As with most arts, reduction to essential profitability results in pablum.

No, you confuse art with commerce. Art is never pablum (Thomas Kincaid was never art). Art is the opposite of commerce. Commerce is pablum; it has to be. Art is paid for by the patrons of the art. Thus non-commercial radio such as college radio can be art, but commercial radio by its very nature can never be art. Sure, there are those occasional stations that are art, but when you look at the books, they're backed by a benefactor or the costs are so low that they can *afford* to produce art.

Alameda's KJAZ was art because Pat Henry built the place and had super-low overhead. And when he couldn't quite make it, he'd shut the station down at night. When Ron Cowan bought KJAZ he continued to try to run it as an artform, moving the studios, running a billboard campaign to try to get listeners, etc. He dumped a boatload of money into KJAZ. Finally, he had to throw in the towel. He eventually gave the station's archives and record collection to KCSM.

KING-FM in Seattle was another example of art. It was endowed for some time by the Bullitt sisters. Likewise a classical AM in Reno. But for the most part, commercial radio stations have to engage in commerce, which means that they simply cannot afford to do art.

 

[michael hagerty]

That AM classical in Reno, 50,000 watt KCRL (780), started in 1970 as a commercial MOR. Its founder, E.L. Cord (maker of the Cord and Auburn automobiles in the 1930s) had owned radio stations off and in for decades.

KCRL went classical when E.L. died and his widow took over. It was the only kind of music she liked. DJs would frequently get phone calls from Mrs. Cord telling them to interrupt a piece to play one of her favorites. She treated it as her personal jukebox, not as a service to the community and it lost money for a decade until it was sold, went country, and promptly became the #1 station in town in both ratings and billing.

 

[DavidKaye]

KCRL went classical when E.L. died and his widow took over. It was the only kind of music she liked. DJs would frequently get phone calls from Mrs. Cord telling them to interrupt a piece to play one of her favorites. She treated it as her personal jukebox, not as a service to the community and it lost money for a decade until it was sold, went country, and promptly became the #1 station in town in both ratings and billing.

Exactly. Art is never a "service to the community" but the vision of the artist. Whatever one would think about Mrs. Cord's taste in music, she had her own particular taste, and thus she was a patron of the arts. And unless the owner has plenty of dollars to spend pursuing that vision, a commercial radio station will seldom if ever (and I'd say never) be an art form.

Internet streaming has the potential to be the best artform yet because the artist doesn't have to cater to anybody, and the cost of entry is so low and is pretty much geared to the number of people in the audience.

Thus, with Internet streaming, we can have anybody's vision of music programming or their own personal club spins and scratching and sound collages and whatnot and the luxury of being able to pursue it as an artform.

Perhaps the people here who keep going on about their vision of what an oldies/classic rock station should be should really consider doing streaming of their radio vision.

 

[landtuna]

Perhaps the people here who keep going on about their vision of what an oldies/classic rock station should be should really consider doing streaming of their radio vision.

Already being done. Check out KODS Reno.

 

[DavidKaye]

Already being done. Check out KODS Reno.

Nope. I looked on the website: "Tears of a Clown", "Hit Me With Your Best Shot", "Rikki Don't Lose That Number", "Take the Money And Run", "Evil Ways" --- YAWWWNNNN

How about "Timothy", "Fancy Pants", "Boom Boom" (Animals version), "Blues Theme", "Ain't Nobody Home", "Second Hand Rose", "Straighten Up Your Heart", "Down On Me", "Harlem Shuffle", "Thanks A Lot" (Brenda Lee version), "Let’s Do The Freddie", "Can You Jerk Like Me", or for that matter ANYTHING by the Dave Clark Five? Now if a station played those songs I'd be all ears. BUT I'd be the only one listening.

All songs mentioned were in the top 50 between 1963 and 1973.

 

[michael hagerty]

Already being done. Check out KODS Reno.

Nope. I looked on the website: "Tears of a Clown", "Hit Me With Your Best Shot", "Rikki Don't Lose That Number", "Take the Money And Run", "Evil Ways" --- YAWWWNNNN

How about "Timothy", "Fancy Pants", "Boom Boom" (Animals version), "Blues Theme", "Ain't Nobody Home", "Second Hand Rose", "Straighten Up Your Heart", "Down On Me", "Harlem Shuffle", "Thanks A Lot" (Brenda Lee version), "Let’s Do The Freddie", "Can You Jerk Like Me", or for that matter ANYTHING by the Dave Clark Five? Now if a station played those songs I'd be all ears. BUT I'd be the only one listening.

All songs mentioned were in the top 50 between 1963 and 1973.

Ah, but KODS isn't purely streaming. It's a commercial station trying to get ratings and revenue. And as we said early in this thread, Top 50 is meaningless.

 

[PirateJohnny]

Already being done. Check out KODS Reno.

Nope. I looked on the website: "Tears of a Clown", "Hit Me With Your Best Shot", "Rikki Don't Lose That Number", "Take the Money And Run", "Evil Ways" --- YAWWWNNNN

How about "Timothy", "Fancy Pants", "Boom Boom" (Animals version), "Blues Theme", "Ain't Nobody Home", "Second Hand Rose", "Straighten Up Your Heart", "Down On Me", "Harlem Shuffle", "Thanks A Lot" (Brenda Lee version), "Let’s Do The Freddie", "Can You Jerk Like Me", or for that matter ANYTHING by the Dave Clark Five? Now if a station played those songs I'd be all ears. BUT I'd be the only one listening.

All songs mentioned were in the top 50 between 1963 and 1973.

I'm about to realize a nearly 40 year old dream. I'm turning a spare room into a radio studio, with streaming capability. I don't have "Fancy Pants", "Straighten Up Your Heart", "Thanks A Lot" (Brenda Lee version), "Let’s Do The Freddie" or "Can You Jerk Like Me", yet. I DO have Brenda Lee songs, Freddie and the Dreamers songs and Dave Clark Five songs.

I have some other replies but not the time to do so tonight.

 

[landtuna]

How about "Timothy", "Fancy Pants", "Boom Boom" (Animals version), "Blues Theme", "Ain't Nobody Home", "Second Hand Rose", "Straighten Up Your Heart", "Down On Me", "Harlem Shuffle", "Thanks A Lot" (Brenda Lee version), "Let’s Do The Freddie", "Can You Jerk Like Me", or for that matter ANYTHING by the Dave Clark Five? Now if a station played those songs I'd be all ears. BUT I'd be the only one listening.

All songs mentioned were in the top 50 between 1963 and 1973.

I consider myself a pretty good classic hits/oldies guy but I recognize only two songs out of your list. In addition, I'm not a big fan of the British Invasion but I do like the late 50's be-bop.

KODS seems to have a fairly tight playlist and they don't go into the 50's much - those would be my only major criticisms but they are much closer to my ideal musical tastes than any other commercial station I've ever heard. Not bad for a listener who is both out of market and out of the demo.

 

[DavidKaye]

I consider myself a pretty good classic hits/oldies guy but I recognize only two songs out of your list. In addition, I'm not a big fan of the British Invasion but I do like the late 50's be-bop.

My whole point is that even the people here who clamor for a wider playlist aren't even familiar with the songs that made the top 50. Instead they want the same-old same-old that drove me away from oldies and classic rock in the first place.

Okay, I'll narrow it down and list some songs out of the top 30 from 1963 to 1973. Again, I'll bet that few people know these songs:

Workin On A Groovy Thing
Sugar Lips
Snake
Step Out Of Your Mind
It’s My Life
All The King’s Horses
I Wonder What She’s Doing Tonight
My Bonnie (My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean) (Beatles version)
Slow Down
Lucretia Mac Evil
I’ll Keep You Satisfied
Sweet Cream Ladies, Forward March
I’ve Got A Tiger By The Tail (Buck Owens or Beatles versions)
Let’s Work Together
Mind, Body & Soul
Try A Little Kindness
Undun
I Can Take Or Leave Your Loving
Neanderthal Man
In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida
Sidewalk Surfin’
Midnight Special (Johnny Rivers version)
Let’s Turkey Trot
Too Many Fish In The Sea (Marvelettes version)
(I’m Not Your) Steppin Stone (Monkees version)
(I’m Not Your) Steppin Stone (Paul Revere & the Raiders version)
Theme From Summer Of 42
Do The Funky Chicken

 

[landtuna]

My whole point is that even the people here who clamor for a wider playlist aren't even familiar with the songs that made the top 50. Instead they want the same-old same-old that drove me away from oldies and classic rock in the first place.

Well, since you singled me out I will answer your question. Titles in color are recognized but some of those I would not call "oldies".

Okay, I'll narrow it down and list some songs out of the top 30 from 1963 to 1973. Again, I'll bet that few people know these songs:

Workin On A Groovy Thing
Sugar Lips
Snake
Step Out Of Your Mind
It’s My Life
All The King’s Horses
I Wonder What She’s Doing Tonight
My Bonnie (My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean) (Beatles version)
Slow Down
Lucretia Mac Evil
I’ll Keep You Satisfied
Sweet Cream Ladies, Forward March
I’ve Got A Tiger By The Tail (Buck Owens or Beatles versions)
Let’s Work Together
Mind, Body & Soul
Try A Little Kindness
Undun
I Can Take Or Leave Your Loving
Neanderthal Man
In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida
Sidewalk Surfin’
Midnight Special (Johnny Rivers version)
Let’s Turkey Trot
Too Many Fish In The Sea (Marvelettes version)
(I’m Not Your) Steppin Stone (Monkees version)
(I’m Not Your) Steppin Stone (Paul Revere & the Raiders version)
Theme From Summer Of 42
Do The Funky Chicken

 

[DavidKaye]

Well, since you singled me out I will answer your question. Titles in color are recognized but some of those I would not call "oldies".

Why not? They were top 30 Billboard hits and they were released in the period between 1963 and 1973. They fit exactly into the definition of oldies. Not only that, but I left out the Dean Martin/Frank Sinatra axis and stuck just to rock and soul.

But the fact is that the people who clamor for oldies/classic rock and who think that the playlists of oldies/classic stations are too restricted are themselves too restricted in their own tastes.

It is possible to play hours of music that falls within the top 40 of music from 63 to 73 that is simply not familiar to most people. Go back and listen to airchecks from any top 40 station of the era -- KHJ, KFRC, KRLA, KYA, WABC and if you note the music, you'll find a bunch of unfamiliar songs.

My favorite unknown oldie from that era is Timothy by the Buoys. Y'see, it seems that a bunch of folks were trapped in a mine cave-in...

"Trapped in a mine that had caved in
And everyone knows the only ones left
Was Joe and me and Tim
When they broke through to pull us free
The only ones left to tell the tale
Was Joe and me

Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go?
Timothy, Timothy, God why don't I know?

Hungry as hell no food to eat
And Joe said that he would sell his soul
For just a piece of meat
Water enough to drink for two
And Joe said to me, "I'll take a swig
And then there's some for you."

Timothy, Timothy, Joe was looking at you
Timothy, Timothy, God what did we do?

I must have blacked out just around then
'Cause the very next thing that I could see
Was the light of the day again
My stomach was full as it could be
And nobody ever got around
To finding Timothy

Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go?
Timothy, Timothy, God why don't I know?

Timothy... "

YOUTUBE LINK: Here's a link to the song on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGNdvKvbxYQ

 

[landtuna]

Well, since you singled me out I will answer your question. Titles in color are recognized but some of those I would not call "oldies".

Why not? They were top 30 Billboard hits and they were released in the period between 1963 and 1973. They fit exactly into the definition of oldies. Not only that, but I left out the Dean Martin/Frank Sinatra axis and stuck just to rock and soul.

"Oldies", the genre, are songs belonging to the 2nd generation of what we call Rock & Roll. By definition, although other songs made the Billboard Pop Chart they are not Oldies if they don't fit within the genre. Country cross-overs, R&B/Soul, Disco, Easy Listening (Sinatra/Martin etc.) and foreign-language songs such as The Singing Nuns.

But the fact is that the people who clamor for oldies/classic rock and who think that the playlists of oldies/classic stations are too restricted are themselves too restricted in their own tastes.

My personal playlist has many more songs in it than virtually any Oldies radio station. But, as it has been pointed out here many times, radio broadcasts to a mass audience and not me personally. Therefore, I would not expect to hear my playlist on any commercial radio station.

It is possible to play hours of music that falls within the top 40 of music from 63 to 73 that is simply not familiar to most people. Go back and listen to airchecks from any top 40 station of the era -- KHJ, KFRC, KRLA, KYA, WABC and if you note the music, you'll find a bunch of unfamiliar songs.

I have multi-hour airchecks from KEWB, WOR-FM, and KGO-FM from the 60's and 70's and in listening to them I hear forgotten songs and many I don't want to hear again. What is your point?

 

[Silkie]

Since I am outside of the maximum 54 in the ages 25-54 range, it doesn't much matter whether I care about radio. ;D

 

[PirateJohnny]

I consider myself a pretty good classic hits/oldies guy but I recognize only two songs out of your list. In addition, I'm not a big fan of the British Invasion but I do like the late 50's be-bop.

My whole point is that even the people here who clamor for a wider playlist aren't even familiar with the songs that made the top 50. Instead they want the same-old same-old that drove me away from oldies and classic rock in the first place.

Okay, I'll narrow it down and list some songs out of the top 30 from 1963 to 1973. Again, I'll bet that few people know these songs:

I was born in 1957

Workin On A Groovy Thing - yes
Sugar Lips - no
Snake - no
Step Out Of Your Mind - no
It’s My Life - yes
All The King’s Horses - yes
I Wonder What She’s Doing Tonight - one of my all time favorites!
My Bonnie (My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean) (Beatles version) - heard it recently
Slow Down - no
Lucretia Mac Evil - loved it then-love it now
I’ll Keep You Satisfied - have it/don't remember it
Sweet Cream Ladies, Forward March - have it/barely remember it
I’ve Got A Tiger By The Tail (Buck Owens or Beatles versions) - yes
Let’s Work Together - yes
Mind, Body & Soul - no
Try A Little Kindness - no
Undun - still like it
I Can Take Or Leave Your Loving - have it/don't remember it
Neanderthal Man - yes/gotta find it!
In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida - YES
Sidewalk Surfin’ - yes
Midnight Special (Johnny Rivers version) - yes
Let’s Turkey Trot - no
Too Many Fish In The Sea (Marvelettes version) - yes
(I’m Not Your) Steppin Stone (Monkees version) - yes
(I’m Not Your) Steppin Stone (Paul Revere & the Raiders version) - have it/don't remember it
Theme From Summer Of 42 - yes
Do The Funky Chicken - yes

 

[TheBigA]

All this demonstrates is that music taste is personal and individual. Each of us can come up with favorites lists and post them online.

But that's not radio's job. And it might explain why radio is abandoning some musical genres completely.

 

[oldies76]

All this demonstrates is that music taste is personal and individual. Each of us can come up with favorites lists and post them online.

True, but radio has a job to do and that's to satisfy the listeners.......with music.

btw, are you listening to WCBS right now? "Stiffs" galore...October 1980 top 25 countdown....If major market WCBS 101 can do it, so can others. They've been doing this for years.

JUST PLAY THE MUSIC! The ultimate job of classic hits radio stations.

 

[TheBigA]

True, but radio has a job to do and that's to satisfy the listeners.......with music.

Playing music is an option, not a requirement. But as you said, it's to satisfy "the listeners," not each individual listener. Big difference.

btw, are you listening to WCBS right now? "Stiffs" galore...October 1980 top 25 countdown....If major market WCBS 101 can do it, so can others. They've been doing this for years.

There's a difference between a specialty show on a Sunday night, when radio listening is at an all-week low, and incorporating it as part of a station's regular daily format.

 

[oldies76]

There's a difference between a specialty show on a Sunday night, when radio listening is at an all-week low, and incorporating it as part of a station's regular daily format.

But many stations won't even do specialties on Sundays or holidays.....I give CBS-FM kudos for this. So not all is lost here. Deep cuts get played after all in a major population center like NYC and the ones that dislike it, can tune out and the ones that enjoy it, can listen every week.

With more listeners throughout the week, I believe a balance can be achieved with playing "some" cuts like these mixed with the tested songs. It can be done.

Listeners can also walk away from hearing a frequently played tested cut too. It happens.

 

[TheBigA]

Listeners can also walk away from hearing a frequently played tested cut too. It happens.

Rarely. Remember: We can see exactly how many people come and go at any moment of the day.