DOES CHICAGO REALLY HAVE 4 HOT AC STATIONS?

[Schroedingers Cat]

Many of today's new recordings sound really grungy, and many 1960s and 1970s recordings sound very clean when they have been remastered by people like Bill Inglot. You can't generalize about sound quality, but the main difference on AM has to do with processing and equalization. Some of the worst recordings today have very little bass, whereas older vinyl recordings, if they are put through a good preamp with proper preemphasis, sound very good and have lots of bass. Kids dealing with what they think is a throwaway oldies format often don't even know how the recordings are supposed to sound, and don't know what they are doing when they make files to be played on hard drive based oldies formats that sound tinny and grate on the ears of older listeners as well as young.

There is a wildy successful following for some of the most obscure 1960s and 1970s songs in the Northern Soul casinos and dance clubs in the UK. Look up Northern Soul Top 500 Of All Time to see how obscure. They are almost all familiar artists, but obscure tracks that may have received local and regional airplay in the US.

You could easily create a local type format for AMs pushing regional hits on AM or a suburban FM that would be successful. There are websites online that recreate the WLS and WCFL experience also.

 

[cspotrun]

I'm sorry YOU'RE the MYTH...

I'm still waiting for an answer to my Question i posed several month ago... Please address the several hundred Classic Hits and or Oldies stations owners and GM's that are making a good living doing the format, WHY their situation is Hopeless and they should Give Up because AD Agencies and clients do not like or can use ANY listener over the age of 50.. IF you cannot answer this question...YOU LOSE...

I never said that about classic hits stations. I did say most oldies stations had transitioned to classic hits to get a better percentage of listeners under 55 and in the sales demos.

There are practically no oldies stations left...and those that are tend to be low rated secondary AMs.

[i've been reading your posts about classic hits and oldies stations and ad agencies with no one wanting anyone over 50 for advertising buys for years. YOU also seem to believe AD agencies are EVERYTHING and Local advertising is meaningless, and it is hopeless for a radio station catering to anyone over the age of 50 to survive, & like a fly on stuff YOU are there anytime classic hits or oldies is mentioned in a blog anywhere in the world so you can write your "Mantra" about Demographics. [/i] NOW you want to Deny you said those things...AMAZING!
ITS TIME FOR THE HONEST EDUARDO TEST....
you never answered my question, 1 last chance... please tell successful stations like cbs-fm-kearth and other successful stations playing 60's-70's music in fly over country it is hopeless becauseAD gencies, "the ONLY source" for income on a radio station, : doesn't like demographics over 50... answer it or you lose...

THEY are likely to tell you they have a LOCAL sales force that makes Local calls knocks on Local doors and they GET advertising buys outside of AD agencies...and they will probably tell you that they not only get Agency buys for their News-Talkers(that cater to OLDER Demos) but also their Classic hits stations that play 40 - 50 year old music, AND THATS WHY THEIR STATIONS ARE STILL ON THE AIR!

what will it take to get through to you?

 

[davideduardo]

I'm sorry YOU'RE the MYTH...

I'm still waiting for an answer to my Question i posed several month ago... Please address the several hundred Classic Hits and or Oldies stations owners and GM's that are making a good living doing the format, WHY their situation is Hopeless and they should Give Up because AD Agencies and clients do not like or can use ANY listener over the age of 50.. IF you cannot answer this question...YOU LOSE...

I never said that about classic hits stations. I did say most oldies stations had transitioned to classic hits to get a better percentage of listeners under 55 and in the sales demos.

There are practically no oldies stations left...and those that are tend to be low rated secondary AMs.

[i've been reading your posts about classic hits and oldies stations and ad agencies with no one wanting anyone over 50 for advertising buys for years. YOU also seem to believe AD agencies are EVERYTHING and Local advertising is meaningless, and it is hopeless for a radio station catering to anyone over the age of 50 to survive, & like a fly on stuff YOU are there anytime classic hits or oldies is mentioned in a blog anywhere in the world so you can write your "Mantra" about Demographics. [/i] NOW you want to Deny you said those things...AMAZING!
ITS TIME FOR THE HONEST EDUARDO TEST....
you never answered my question, 1 last chance... please tell successful stations like cbs-fm-kearth and other successful stations playing 60's-70's music in fly over country it is hopeless becauseAD gencies, "the ONLY source" for income on a radio station, : doesn't like demographics over 50... answer it or you lose...

THEY are likely to tell you they have a LOCAL sales force that makes Local calls knocks on Local doors and they GET advertising buys outside of AD agencies...and they will probably tell you that they not only get Agency buys for their News-Talkers(that cater to OLDER Demos) but also their Classic hits stations that play 40 - 50 year old music, AND THATS WHY THEIR STATIONS ARE STILL ON THE AIR!

what will it take to get through to you?

I will first give you my anecdotal experience from the time when I was GSM and NSM at a top 15 market station. We did 95% of our sales with agencies and were both #1 in ratings and in billings, a fact which is well documented. We did not sell much direct business because as I raised the rates upwards to over $250 average for 6 AM to 7 PM, the direct accounts could no longer afford us.

And that is the issue in the top markets for stations with significant ratings and coverage: the rates they can get for local, regional and national agency biz is much higher than the one or two location local account.

If a business has multiple locations, significant volume and a need to advertise, they generally have an agency. Or they bind together in an association, such as a regional Ford dealer group, to be able to efficiently use media that covers more geography than the average car dealer pulls customers from.

There is so much money in the top 10 markets...nearly 30% of all radio dollars...that the big stations go after the higher rate agency business and the smaller percentage of large local direct business, and leave the smaller accounts to suburban or rimshot stations, specialty formats and the like.

And, yes, those big stations will have a local sales department... To call on local agencies.

As to formats...

Oldies is 60's based pop gold. Maybe a bit of 50's and some early 70's. There are nearly none of these stations left...except for some non-rated markets, marginal AMs, etc.

Classic hits is 70's based, with some songs that got played enough in the 70's on CHR to be part of the classic hits repertoire. CBS FM, WOGL, KOOL, KRTH, etc. are classic hits stations.

Oldies appeals predominantly to those over 60. Classic Hits appeals to roughly 40 to 65' with enough in 25-54 to be salable even if the 55 and over part can't be sold.

You in accurately state that I say that those over 50 are not salable...in fact in radio, the sales demos are, first, 25-54 then 18-49 and then 18-34 plus all the subsets of those. 50-54 as part of delivery of 25-54 is totally monetizable.

 

[cspotrun]

david, we come from two different worlds. i come from markets where AD agencies are not as big a factor as they are in the top 10 markets, in fact local AD agencies in "Fly-Over" country, as some may call it, are somewhat of a joke and a station couldn't survive only on AD agency money. so, Local Sales is the thing out here. since you are citing personal experience, my experience is that a Classic Hits/Oldies station getting strong 25-54/35+ numbers can fill up the station log with advertisers! AND also get some national AD buys. the station i was connected with got(for example) national Ford, GM, Chrysler buys, beer and fast food buys. my problem with you is also the problem with some sales departments... most of them are young and do not see the value in selling ad time on older demographic stations BECAUSE they are either Lazy, they don't personally like the format or they have no experience in selling. the sales staff at my station were on the whole more seasoned, the station doing classic hits/oldies had been in the format for over 20 years and everyone had it on in their stores.

AD agencies can dismiss demographics over 50 but the fact is that on average America is getting OLDER, the baby boom is long over and people are living longer. i don't think it will be long before this demographic will be given the proper attention it deserves

 

[davideduardo]

david, we come from two different worlds.... my problem with you is also the problem with some sales departments... most of them are young and do not see the value in selling ad time on older demographic stations BECAUSE they are either Lazy, they don't personally like the format or they have no experience in selling. the sales staff at my station were on the whole more seasoned, the station doing classic hits/oldies had been in the format for over 20 years and everyone had it on in their stores.

A D agencies can dismiss demographics over 50 but the fact is that on average America is getting OLDER, the baby boom is long over and people are living longer. i don't think it will be long before this demographic will be given the proper attention it deserves

Ad agencies don't dismiss 55 and over... It is agency clients who determine the marketing targets. That's why there is essentially no 55+ ad money for radio. In tv, where ove 50 is excluded, CBS has o campaigning to broaden the demo to no real success as the clients cite the poor ROI on advertising to seasoned consumers.

I have worked an sold in even unrated markets (like Lake City, FL) and smaller rated ones (like Tallahassee) and I know that local direct is essential but in the larger markets you have to get agency business to survive at a major signal/station. It's not about the sellers or their training... If agencies specify a demo and you can't deliver and do so at the right CPP, you will not get a buy.

When I owned a mix of small and large market stations, I realized the small ones were as much work as the big ones and I got rid of them... It was a matter of economics and available time. In fact, my most profitable station programmed to people twice my age or more...but it delivered an audience agencies wantd; it was not about believing in the format. Or laziness but demand.

 

[cspotrun]

something else to consider david, in alot of markets big and small stations and groups are NOT buying the Arbitron due to costs, so i don't know how AD agencies can determine demographics, unless they are guessing or have a predetermined mind set.

i look at cable news which caters to older demographics and talk radio for that matter, they are getting buys for outfits selling Gold, Silver, Big Pharma, Re-financing their house, Reverse mortages,all kinds of health care needs, retirement planning, expensive luxury cars, and so on that someone over 50 would care about, and i imagine there is an AD agency tied to that.. so if an ad agency doesn't see any use for someone over 50, it might be because they don't have the RIGHT clients, because cable news, news talk are filling their pockets with money from these TARGETED clients, and there's no reason Classic Hits and oldies stations cannot benefit from these SAME KIND OF BUYS along with Local advertising outside of ad agencies which account for more sales anyway. you gotta think outside the Box, you're not going to sell chewing gum and zit cream to 50 year olds, so what are THEY interested in, GO FOR IT, i've given some examples.

 

[davideduardo]

something else to consider david, in alot of markets big and small stations and groups are NOT buying the Arbitron due to costs, so i don't know how AD agencies can determine demographics, unless they are guessing or have a predetermined mind set.

i look at cable news which caters to older demographics and talk radio for that matter, they are getting buys for outfits selling Gold, Silver, Big Pharma, Re-financing their house, Reverse mortages,all kinds of health care needs, retirement planning, expensive luxury cars, and so on that someone over 50 would care about, and i imagine there is an AD agency tied to that.. so if an ad agency doesn't see any use for someone over 50, it might be because they don't have the RIGHT clients, because cable news, news talk are filling their pockets with money from these TARGETED clients, and there's no reason Classic Hits and oldies stations cannot benefit from these SAME KIND OF BUYS along with Local advertising outside of ad agencies which account for more sales anyway. you gotta think outside the Box, you're not going to sell chewing gum and zit cream to 50 year olds, so what are THEY interested in, GO FOR IT, i've given some examples.

Arbitron provides numbers for all stations to agency subscribers... Not just the ones buying the survey. So no station is unrated... Just not listed in the public 6+ and 12+ data.

Cable nets deliver mature audiences well on a national basis, but even then what drives sales in TV is 18-49.

And talk stations bill well based on the 25-54 delivery and the fact that they have so much inventory to sell, even at low rates.

And, as I said, in the largest markets, profitability is determined by how much quality agency business you can get.

 

[musicfanpete]

WTMX: Nah, they're not upset at all. Their 6+ and demo ratings are the highest I've seen them in a while, so I don't think any of these stations are really hurting Mix.

The two surburban Next Media stations just flipped to Hot AC this past week...

Just to clarify, those Next Media stations did not just flip to Hot AC. It looks like these two stations joined the Mediabase Hot AC panel and are now being tracked 24/7 for their airplay. Don't know if this was Next Media's decision, or if Mediabase has expanded to include the more fringe suburban stations, but it is nice to see both of these stations added to the Hot AC panel.

As far as their history in the format is concerned, I believe WSSR, which targets the far west and southwest suburbs of Chicago, used to be an AC station that gradually segued into a Hot AC station sometime over the past 5 or 6 years. WXLC, which targets mainly the far northern suburbs in Lake County Illinois, used to be a CHR station in the 80's into the early 90's. The station then flipped to a Hot AC station in the early 90's, where it has been since then outside of a two year stint as an alternative rock station in the mid-90's at the height of the modern rock peak. And both stations have done a fine job targeting their communities as has been alluded too here. WSSR usually pulls around a .5 6+ share in the Chicago market, while WXLC has pulled anywhere from a .4 to 1 share in recent years. However, I'd be interested to see what shares they pull closer to their primary areas in the suburbs, but I don't believe Arbitron tracks specific portions of the suburbs.

 

[davideduardo]

It looks like these two stations joined the Mediabase Hot AC panel and are now being tracked 24/7 for their airplay. Don't know if this was Next Media's decision, or if Mediabase has expanded to include the more fringe suburban stations, but it is nice to see both of these stations added to the Hot AC panel.

In general, stations that are monitored for airplay are selected by the organization doing the monitoring... MediaBase, BDS, etc.

In many cases, a station is added because the monitoring company has added the ability to track the signal, either with a new location or better antennae.

Similarly, stations that are changed from one panel to another are changed by the monitoring company based on an evaluation of the rotations, playlist and mix.

 

[tce]

DavidEduardo is a paragon of patience, a fount of knowledge and the embodiment of equanimity. I have learned a ton.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

DavidEduardo is a paragon of patience, a fount of knowledge and the embodiment of equanimity. I have learned a ton.

Not to mention the compilation of the best sources of radio history in the history of radio into a single website. Memories fail, radio people die, but americanradiohistory.com lives on. Combine that with a good memory of how things were to organize and supplement the information, and you have an unbeatable record.

 

[atlantaboy]

FYI you all now have 5 Hot AC stations reporting to Mediabase: WIQI, WSSR, WKLC, WTMX, and WZSR

I guess 3 of them are suburban stations all set up by Next Media