DSPX AGC before Optimod

[1290wgli]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> When Omnia.fm was introduced in 1997, it gained popularity,
> not from marketing, but from performance. Most of the
> marketplace was already "comfortable" with the Optimod. They
> had no reason to switch, unless something that performed
> better came along. We had to literally beg some folks to
> even look at the unit, let alone demo it. Once they heard
> it, they had to listen again, and then finally they came to
> realize that Omnia.fm was indeed better than the Optimod
> because it performed better.

In 1997 it was MUCH better, one of Orban's biggest mistakes was sitting with the 8200 as long as he did. You were 3 boxes ahead when he finally came with the 8400 (I ask why it took him so long to build the 9400).

While I understand the difficulty of a start-up and trying to get the message out where there is brand loyalty, there was a market for another box in 1997. The 8100, while a great processor, was usually found mounted in airchains with half the cards replaced and other gear. Nobody had it "stock" by itself... as the manual suggested. The 8200 was never really great... no matter how many times the software was upgraded. Clearly, there was a market for someone else to build something different.

Just a few thoughts... anyway, happy holdiays.

 

[gtomas]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> Sure, we reinforce the message with marketing, but all the
> best marketing that money could buy would not have gotten us
> in the door in 1997, unless we had a better mousetrap.

Surely, you can't succeed with the product that is bad no matter how much you spend on marketing. But marketing, and I'm talking theory here, can make an inferior product more successful on the market. As well as the lack of marketing can be the end of a really good (better than competition) product.

Now back to processing brands. Omnia puts a lot of money in marketing and that shows. I really like your ads and you have a very inventive advertisement team. They have some really great ideas! But what I don't like is the aggressiveness on the boards and lists from the Omnia/Telos people. The minute someone says they don't like something about your product, you are all over him and you don't give up. I know you're probably driven by the marketing mantra "perception is reality", but I think you need to rethink if it's working against you. I know it is for me...

OTOH, IMO marketing is the weakest link in DSPX team. You guys need to spend lot more on marketing. No matter how good Omnia and Orban products currently are, yours is good as well. Having heard DSPX I know there don't have to be only two sounds/brands on the air - there can be three, each with their own flavor. Plus, you have the added bonus of very competitive pricing. But you need to get more word out, you need more attractive ads and you need more presence!


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[FFoti]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

Goran,

There's a difference between something a person doesn't like, and a misrepresentative comment about a product. When I feel that our products are being described or reviewed incorrectly, I will get involved. When there have been reported challenges that we have verified, we have gone back and resolved the situation.

I can tell you that there have been many situations that appeared on the list-serves where I personally contacted the customer privately and we have resolved their situation to the customer's satisfaction. In those cases you're not aware that we didn't give up until we were able to satisfy the customer. What's wrong with that?

Yes, perception is reality, and if that perception is a distorted view that is based upon incorrect information, then damage has been directed towards our company. It's my duty to insure that information and perception about our products is correct.

-Frank Foti

> Now back to processing brands. Omnia puts a lot of money in
> marketing and that shows. I really like your ads and you
> have a very inventive advertisement team. They have some
> really great ideas! But what I don't like is the
> aggressiveness on the boards and lists from the Omnia/Telos
> people. The minute someone says they don't like something
> about your product, you are all over him and you don't give
> up. I know you're probably driven by the marketing mantra
> "perception is reality", but I think you need to rethink if
> it's working against you. I know it is for me...
>
> Regards,
> Goran Tomas
>

 

[1290wgli]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> OTOH, IMO marketing is the weakest link in DSPX team. You
> guys need to spend lot more on marketing.

That's not the problem. The problem is perception. I see DSP-X ads in every major trade magazine (Radio Guide, Radio World, Radio etc) and the boxes have received positive reviews.

It's difficult for a new product to break in. I think the Xtra with the industry popular Ariane included might get people to check it out and discover that BW processing is as competent as the other brands... it's all in how you fire the weapon.

 

[westlife]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> Yes, perception is reality, and if that perception is a
> distorted view that is based upon incorrect information,
> then damage has been directed towards our company. It's my
> duty to insure that information and perception about our
> products is correct.
>
> -Frank Foti

If you want to get a distorted view of your company's products, just listen to FM radio in New York City.
<P ID="signature">______________

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>

 

[dspxscott]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

>
> OTOH, IMO marketing is the weakest link in DSPX team. You
> guys need to spend lot more on marketing. No matter how good
> Omnia and Orban products currently are, yours is good as
> well. Having heard DSPX I know there don't have to be only
> two sounds/brands on the air - there can be three, each with
> their own flavor. Plus, you have the added bonus of very
> competitive pricing. But you need to get more word out, you
> need more attractive ads and you need more presence!
>
>
> Regards,
> Goran Tomas
>

Goran
We spend a LOT on advertising! As the other poster pointed out you will find us in Radio guide, Radio World, Radio world international and Radio Magazine as well as the UK's radio magazine. Combine that with the NAB, IBC, Broadcast Asia and SBES trade shows and you have a large marketing/advertising outlay each year.

We are convinced that we will soon be accepted as a major processing brand by consumers, Especially with the new models due out next year that are under wraps. It just takes time!

We are fortunate that BW would be able to continue operating even if we didn't sell a single processor (not the case), through our varied portfolio of products and design services. That I believe is what makes us different from other processing start-ups that may possibly crash and burn through not being able to stay the distance. We have the people and the skills, time will bring more products to the range and we will see where that takes us. As you pointed out, marketing is the key and that is what I was pointing out to Frank about the Omnia products earlier in the thread.

Your point about attractive ads is noted and something that we are currently discussing.

Best regards
Scott

Ponder on this one....
If we took away the budget for the marketing and tradeshows we could double the processor development team staff and probably have 5 or 6 new processors ready for the summer. Catch 22! Who will buy them if they dont know about them or the company. Hitting the right balance between r&d and marketing is difficult but we will get there in the end, I am confident in that.

 

[FFoti]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

OK Kevin,

Not sure why you feel the need to "distort" a discussion. I don't control how they are used. I've heard plenty of distorted radio stations that do not use our gear, and maybe they should.

-Frank Foti

> > Yes, perception is reality, and if that perception is a
> > distorted view that is based upon incorrect information,
> > then damage has been directed towards our company. It's my
>
> > duty to insure that information and perception about our
> > products is correct.
> >
> > -Frank Foti
>
> If you want to get a distorted view of your company's
> products, just listen to FM radio in New York City.
>

 

[westlife]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> OK Kevin,
>
> Not sure why you feel the need to "distort" a discussion.
> I don't control how they are used.

If you're going to brag about how "all but one" of the top-rated NYC FM stations are using Omnias, then you should take at least some accountability for the way those stations are using your product.

I know it must be frustrating that for every new revision you release, these stations use the new capabilities not to maintain the same loudness while improving audio quality and reducing distortion, but rather to maintain the same distortion threshold while jacking up the loudness another few tenths of a dB.... but if you make the tools, you have to be conscious of how your most influential customers are using these tools.

15 or 20 years ago, you could've given the excuse that you're not responsible for the way these stations are using your products on the air, because of all the hot-rodded aftermarket modifications that were taking audio processors far beyond their factory specifications. (In fact, you got your own start in the business by hot-rodding someone else's product!) But these days it's a different ballgame. If a station's modulation meter looks like it's monitoring line voltage, then it's much more likely that your product is entirely responsible for it.
<P ID="signature">______________

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>

 

[FFoti]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> > OK Kevin,
> >
> > Not sure why you feel the need to "distort" a discussion.
> > I don't control how they are used.
>
> If you're going to brag about how "all but one" of the
> top-rated NYC FM stations are using Omnias, then you should
> take at least some accountability for the way those stations
> are using your product.

I'd be interested to know how I am to be accountable?

You choose to forget a key element, we can't control how NYC, or any other market for that matter, chooses to sound. Have you considered that many of these stations claim they have tried other products but can not achieve the results they desire with those products. If our gear didn't provide them with the sound *THEY* choose to have, then they'd find another that will. It's out of my control.

BTW: I've noticed how much you favor the CRL gear. I've heard some poor sounding stations that *were* using that gear. Based upon your perspective, CRL should be held accoountable for their performance?

Yes, it is sad that whenever we bring out a new 'tool' that will improve quality, some users will use that to gain more loudness. Stop and think that our effort to release a new function that offers improved quality and performance *IS* accountability on our part. If others choose to use it another way, I can not control that.

You're obviously not aware that many of the critical and quality conscious broadcasters also have chosen Omnia. Swedish Radio, BBC, Danish Radio, and NRK to name a few, are some of the most critical broadcasters in the world. They spent significant amounts of time comparing all audio processors. In the end they chose Omnia, solely based upon performance and quality.

If you don't like how the NYC stations sound then take your rant to them.

-Frank Foti

 

[westlife]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> If you don't like how the NYC stations sound then take your
> rant to them.

I will when you stop using them as the poster children for your company's success. Like it or not, they are giving your products a reputation for grungy, distorted audio, regardless of what kind of super-whiz-bang clipper-o-matic features you implement.
<P ID="signature">______________

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>

 

[FFoti]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

Glad to know that you are the judge of broadcasting. No one has offended *YOU* by our business practices.

You conveniently chose to ignore the rest of my reply, which explained the scenario. Our company's success is based upon successful results throughtout the world. If you were as knowledgeable as you imply, then you'd know better.

-Frank Foti

> > If you don't like how the NYC stations sound then take
> your
> > rant to them.
>
> I will when you stop using them as the poster children for
> your company's success. Like it or not, they are giving
> your products a reputation for grungy, distorted audio,
> regardless of what kind of super-whiz-bang clipper-o-matic
> features you implement.

 

[oldiesstation]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> Glad to know that you are the judge of broadcasting. No one
> has offended *YOU* by our business practices.
>
> You conveniently chose to ignore the rest of my reply, which
> explained the scenario. Our company's success is based upon
> successful results throughtout the world. If you were as
> knowledgeable as you imply, then you'd know better.
>
> -Frank Foti
>
> > > If you don't like how the NYC stations sound then take
> > your
> > > rant to them.
> >
> > I will when you stop using them as the poster children for
>
> > your company's success. Like it or not, they are giving
> > your products a reputation for grungy, distorted audio,
> > regardless of what kind of super-whiz-bang clipper-o-matic
> HELLO, time to smoke the peace pipe here..Frank knows what his processors will do ,now if a station like settings that are alittle too aggressive, it is not Frank's fault..i prefer a more open sound myself and i point out most radios do have volume controls..omnia does outsell orban 5 to 1, plus omnia has great support, like Mark who has always been friendly and helpful.scott has a awesome product with the DSP_EXTRA,but they are at the marketing level Frank was when he started omnia.but Scott is very prompt in answering Emails at all times of the day and night..the extra is a clear winner and i will be comparing it to the omnia 6ex hd next week..but i am thinking they will be on even par but with the extra at less that half the price of the omnia 6, it may be the better bargain for more budget conscious broadcasters.But as we know processing is subjective so no one will always agree on the sound of a station.New York is balls to the wall for those chr's.but CBS FM sounded good when i heard the Omnia 6.hey that why they have all those darn presets..at lease Frank and scott will do postings, so BOB ORBAN, whereever you are, come down from that ivory tower and participate in these discussions....
> >
>

 

[Les]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> BTW: I've noticed how much you favor the CRL gear. I've
> heard some poor sounding stations that *were* using that
> gear. Based upon your perspective, CRL should be held
> accoountable for their performance?

Maybe you can suggest a better idea for the AM I work with.
It's presently using a set of very old CRL processing/noise
reduction but, in addition, one very old and one very new
"shortwave" limiter that squashes bandwidth down to about
4-kHz. Yes, that's intentional and, yes, it does sound
simply horrible on any kind of a decent receiver. The
purpose is to maximize modulation and "reach" out to some
very distant, very tiny villages. In those places there
are few decent radios; mostly as cheap as can be gotten and
many of the wind-up variety. Yeah, a few "GE Super Radios"
and one or two of the "C Crane" type but in any one village
you can count those on one hand.

BTW, the two limiters have inputs and outputs parallelled and
AC is supplied to only one unit at any given time, remotely
controlled. They're set up approximately the same and
switching is only done when the power supply fails in the one
in use; not uncommon. There are two spare power supplies
sitting in little boxes, one right on top of each unit.

Any idea about something more modern that might accomplish the
same "reach" while not wreaking so much destruction? It's a
25kW day/14kW night non directional with a very well kept
Nautel ND-25 driving an (ughhh) folded unipole whose bandwidth
wins no prizes.<P ID="signature">______________
In government, as in gardens:

Moles are far more intelligent than are gophers!</P>

 

[RadioDoc]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> If a
> station's modulation meter looks like it's monitoring line
> voltage, then it's much more likely that your product is
> entirely responsible for it.
>

No, if a station's mod meter looks like that, it's the fault of the Engineer, GM, and PD.

You can't expect Frank, Bob, Scott, or anyone else to limit the way others use their product. Does history need to repeat itself? Why do you think there were so many aftermarket mods for the 8100? It's because Bob Orban decided that the responsible thing would be to prevent the 8100 from doing bad things. The market spoke, and now you can crank it all to 11 and produce square waves.

It's like saying Ford is responsible for speeders since they make a car that exceeds the speed limit.

I don't think so!<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[westlife]

Re: What the hell is wrong with #15?

> It's like saying Ford is responsible for speeders since they
> make a car that exceeds the speed limit.
>
> I don't think so!

However, if Ford was using speeders and other irresponsible drivers in their marketing campaign as proof of their vehicles' performance, then they would definitely be responsible for it.

The bottom line: Mr. Foti likes to tout the NYC FM stations as the premier examples of the success of his Omnia line of audio processors. The trouble is, most of these stations sound like crap! And yet he complains when his Omnias have developed a reputation for grungy, distorted audio, based on the way these stations sound? If Mr. Foti doesn't want his products to become associated with the inferior sound of the NYC FM stations, then he should stop using them for self-promotional purposes, like this:

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.telos-systems.com/news/press/omnia_nyc14_2004.htm>http://www.telos-systems.com/news/press/omnia_nyc14_2004.htm</a>
<P ID="signature">______________

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>

 

[FFoti]

Re: What the hell is wrong with #15?

Kevin,

Your view regarding the sound of NYC stations is only your opinion. Just because YOU may not like how these folks have setup their sound, doesn't make them wrong, or our product bad.

As stated prior, and which YOU keep choosing to ignor, Omnia processors are also used on many stations that choose to process less aggressively than NYC.

-Frank Foti

> > It's like saying Ford is responsible for speeders since
> they
> > make a car that exceeds the speed limit.
> >
> > I don't think so!
>
> However, if Ford was using speeders and other irresponsible
> drivers in their marketing campaign as proof of their
> vehicles' performance, then they would definitely be
> responsible for it.
>
> The bottom line: Mr. Foti likes to tout the NYC FM stations
> as the premier examples of the success of his Omnia line of
> audio processors. The trouble is, most of these stations
> sound like crap! And yet he complains when his Omnias have
> developed a reputation for grungy, distorted audio, based on
> the way these stations sound? If Mr. Foti doesn't want his
> products to become associated with the inferior sound of the
> NYC FM stations, then he should stop using them for
> self-promotional purposes, like this:
>
> http://www.telos-systems.com/news/press/omnia_nyc14_2004.htm
>

 

[westlife]

Re: What the hell is wrong with #15?

> Your view regarding the sound of NYC stations is only your
> opinion. Just because YOU may not like how these folks have
> setup their sound, doesn't make them wrong, or our product bad.

I'm not saying your product is bad. I'm saying your marketing is bad.

> As stated prior, and which YOU keep choosing to ignor, Omnia
> processors are also used on many stations that choose to
> process less aggressively than NYC.

Then why don't you use *these* stations as your Omnia poster children, instead of the balls-to-the-wall NYC stations?
<P ID="signature">______________

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>

 

[dspxscott]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> You're obviously not aware that many of the critical and
> quality conscious broadcasters also have chosen Omnia.
> Swedish Radio, BBC, Danish Radio, and NRK to name a few, are
> some of the most critical broadcasters in the world. They
> spent significant amounts of time comparing all audio
> processors. In the end they chose Omnia, solely based upon
> performance and quality.
>

I don't know about the others but I personally know the BBC now generally favour Orban. They may have bought quite a lot of Omnias in the past but that doesn't mean they would buy Omnia again now. I know most of the BBC's NATIONAL stations use other brands than Omnia.
As for comparing all the audio processors... There until recently have only been two manufacturers. To test them all sometimes means flipping a coin, both with an O on each side. The coin is sometimes weighted on one side by MARKETING and a good local sales drive
I know several examples worldwide of radio stations buying into a processor brand and not being happy and then having to live with the decision for financial reasons, or the CE not wanting to get egg on his face by having to admit he went with the wrong brand. I don't want to turn this thread into bashing a brand or product (something I try to never do) but I thought it was worth a mention that some manufacturers of processors sometimes twist the information about who, why and where are using their products, in the name of MARKETING!
Best regards
Scott

 

[FFoti]

Re: What the hell is wrong with #15?

> > Your view regarding the sound of NYC stations is only your
>
> > opinion. Just because YOU may not like how these folks
> have
> > setup their sound, doesn't make them wrong, or our product
> bad.
>
> I'm not saying your product is bad. I'm saying your
> marketing is bad.
>
> > As stated prior, and which YOU keep choosing to ignor,
> Omnia
> > processors are also used on many stations that choose to
> > process less aggressively than NYC.
>
> Then why don't you use *these* stations as your Omnia poster
> children, instead of the balls-to-the-wall NYC stations?
>

We have.

-Frank Foti

 

[FFoti]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> > You're obviously not aware that many of the critical and
> > quality conscious broadcasters also have chosen Omnia.
> > Swedish Radio, BBC, Danish Radio, and NRK to name a few,
> are
> > some of the most critical broadcasters in the world. They
> > spent significant amounts of time comparing all audio
> > processors. In the end they chose Omnia, solely based upon
>
> > performance and quality.
> >
>
> I don't know about the others but I personally know the BBC
> now generally favour Orban. They may have bought quite a lot
> of Omnias in the past but that doesn't mean they would buy
> Omnia again now. I know most of the BBC's NATIONAL stations
> use other brands than Omnia.
> As for comparing all the audio processors... There until
> recently have only been two manufacturers. To test them all
> sometimes means flipping a coin, both with an O on each
> side. The coin is sometimes weighted on one side by
> MARKETING and a good local sales drive
> I know several examples worldwide of radio stations buying
> into a processor brand and not being happy and then having
> to live with the decision for financial reasons, or the CE
> not wanting to get egg on his face by having to admit he
> went with the wrong brand. I don't want to turn this thread
> into bashing a brand or product (something I try to never
> do) but I thought it was worth a mention that some
> manufacturers of processors sometimes twist the information
> about who, why and where are using their products, in the
> name of MARKETING!
> Best regards
> Scott

Sorry again Scott,

Maybe you are not privy to the great BBC local radio processor shootout of a few years ago. Processors from (5) different companies were brought in and Omnia was choosen. Orban was among them. I know that these are on-air as we dialog with them all the time.

That outcome was not based on marketing.

-Frank Foti