WLS always played a shortened version of Elton John's version of Pinball Wizard when it was on the charts in 1975. A good part of the guitar solo section was removed. I don't recall any other stations playing the same version as WLS so it appeared it was an in-house edit.
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johnsummers
Guest
"Are we butchering Sir Elton John's work because he is gay?"........really, Bruce :-\
Wrong.
Less music = more spots. Otherwise, your equation is correct.
Think about the average listener in the metroplex (regardless of age, gender, or format preference). There they are, at work, in their car, or wherever they're listening. Do they care that they heard three songs in 12 minutes, or two songs in 12 minutes? Aren't they just happy that they heard 12 minutes of music they like before they heard any commercials?
If it was three songs (or four or five) in 12 minutes, and ONE of those songs sucked (in their opinion), then they punched out. If they heard, let's say the full version of American Pie and then some other 3:30 song, and they liked them both, then they stayed.
We gotta stop over-thinking this.
By the way, I agree with most of you that editing the classics for time purposes is a sin punishable by death. Or low ratings. Whichever comes first.
O
OldiesCat
Guest
Elton edits
And in 1975 that may have been acceptable (it was, in fact, S.O.P. for top 40 stations). But in an era where people aren't getting their music from AM stations, where they know the CD versions from the actual CDs, iPods and play on album-oriented stations, the full version is a must. Radio guys only play edits because of old-line AM thinking, that getting an extra song in every hour is somehow a good thing (even though it's at the expense of credibility with their listeners).
MacOConnor said:
And in 1975 that may have been acceptable (it was, in fact, S.O.P. for top 40 stations). But in an era where people aren't getting their music from AM stations, where they know the CD versions from the actual CDs, iPods and play on album-oriented stations, the full version is a must. Radio guys only play edits because of old-line AM thinking, that getting an extra song in every hour is somehow a good thing (even though it's at the expense of credibility with their listeners).
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
johnsummers said:
Probably over the top - but it makes a point. Actions like that could be mis-interpreted as singling out certain artists as having less stature than others. Which leads to inevitable questions like "why was this artist censored / edited and another not?" You DON'T want to go there ---
I appreciated the FULL versions of songs last evening. KLUV - listens to listeners it appears.
K
KPLEXCOMPLEX
Guest
Actually Rick we are both correct. The interesting thing is,most stations use "cashbox" to squeeze out more time per hour,for spots. Edting songs increases that spotload. I wonder how they would tackle Shel Silverstein's classic "26 second song'? Edited it down to 13 seconds?
KPLEXCOMPLEX said:
I have never, ever seen a station that uses Cashbox. I am not sure who might be using the device, but based on the lack of any reporting of recent in RadioWorld and such, I think it may just be a small handful that do.
Songs are edited for several reasons, none of which have anything to do with increasing spot load. First reason is to try to match the original release (promo releases, even today, have radio versions) because that is what the listener is familiar with. Second is to reduce the elements that are not as good about the song, like longer than needed instrumental bridges. Third is to be able to fit more songs in the hour.
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
DavidEduardo said:
I have nothing but contempt for a person that would presume to tell an artist that their musical bridge was "longer than needed". WHO is the musician, and who is only playing a recording of their work for broadcast. Only the original musician has the creativity to make a determination like that.
And people wonder why iPods are a threat to radio. I get my music uncensored - by fools that have not one ounce of musical creativity in them.
I tried to go to www.girmarc.com and wasn't able to fine a website.
K
KPLEXCOMPLEX
Guest
It Gimarc.com.."girmarc"is a typo.
I agree Bruce.The resident argumentative CONsultant is wrong,no surprise.
I agree Bruce.The resident argumentative CONsultant is wrong,no surprise.
rbrucecarter5 said:
Oh God Yes ! ! I vote for "Hey Jude" and "The Long And Winding Road" to be taken to the chopping block ASAP.
Also Hoping for the Chopping Block ASAP :
Queen -- Bohemian Rhapsody
The Band -- Up on Cripple Creek
Bob Dylan -- Like a Rolling Stone
Eric Clapton -- Layla
Eric Clapton -- Knockin' on Heaven's Door
Eric Clapton -- Sunshine of Your Love
Eric Clapton -- White Room
Freebird
R
rbrucecarter5
Guest
Rover - want to know the irony? KNUS 98.7 FM was a low power free form station when it signed on - the great KLIF 1190 knew that the future was in FM, and in album rock - so they McLendon put it on the air. Only 12000W if I remember correctly. KNUS would never have chopped the very songs KLUV did. Same frequency, same station, different call letters, different owner, different era.
Of course - VERY few stations play out the whole gong at the end of "Nights in White Satin" or all of "A Day in the Life". Not even the classiest classic rock station. And some songs have to be edited for profanity. But those are about the only times I would see the reason for a chopping block.
Of course - VERY few stations play out the whole gong at the end of "Nights in White Satin" or all of "A Day in the Life". Not even the classiest classic rock station. And some songs have to be edited for profanity. But those are about the only times I would see the reason for a chopping block.
rbrucecarter5 said:
Yeah, I know about the irony of it all. If McLendon hadn't done the AM sale, I wonder how long he would have left KNUS-FM as a Progressive format. He pioneered moving the AM format to FM. OH JOY !! [not] He came out sweet, but Progressive FM fans got the shaft!!
BTY, many song I really like have some kickin' guitar stuff at the very ends of the songs....Really groovin' stuff..... But corporate DJ's habitually talk over those tatsty licks.
COMPLETE LACK OF DISCERNMENT ! = NO CREDIBILITY ! !
T
theshadow
Guest
DavidEduardo said:
WBAP used it at one point (or a very similar kind of system).
Probably still do. Made for some really nasty edits at times, at
the top and bottom of the hour to sync everything up, with
shows like Limbaugh and Hannity. Not really sure how all the
techno mumbo jumbo works with it, but apparently if it's not
set up precisely with the time codes, network or sat programs,
it can really end up sounding like a train wreck.
T
TheRadioJudge
Guest
First off Elton John sucks. Musiclly and.. well you get the idea. Second, no song that isnt hip hop should even be considered to have a chopped up version.
T
theshadow
Guest
rbrucecarter5 said:
Agreed. This has been a pet peeve of mine for years.
Play the song as the artist intended (meaning "album
cut)!!. 45's used to be notorious for edited versions
(yeah, I know, I'm REALLY aging myself). Even some
greatest hits CD's did it. Imagine my surprise and anger
at purchasing Aerosmith's Greatist Hits CD many moons
ago and having an edited version of "Sweet Emotion"
without the wee-aah guitar at the begining! or
Def Leppard's Vault with their digusting almost dance
mix version of (I believe) "Pour Some Sugar on Me".
Fine....., call us stoned potheads for wanting some album
rock cuts or whatever, but is that not what we listen to
music radio for? We certainly don't listen to it for the spots.
Another reason why satellite radio is so popular, and you're
likely to hear those extended "deep" cuts you never hear.
And commercial radio sits around with their jaw open
wondering why they've lost listeners....
rbrucecarter5 said:
Fortunately, the vast bulk and majority of listeners disagree with you. Radio programming is not about the individual songs as musch as it is about the blend of the songs and all other elements. This is why good PDs spend hours massaging thier music logs for just the right feel, for example.
It is also why we understand that the radio version of a song... the one listeners first heard... is the one to play once the song is "gold." And we also understand that not every song is right for radio.
I will give you an anecdotal experience in a top 15 market. I put on a new FM format, and we could not get the original radio versions of many songs. Our PD, a graduate of the NY School of Performing Arts and a musician and composer himself, recreated the radio versions. Inspired, he took nearly every song in the library and eliminated the excess "jams" from the middle. We were able to up the hourly song count by 2 to 3 songs because of this. The artists complimented us on the quality and seamlessness of the PD's work, and the station debuted with a 22 share in a 30 station market... remaining #1 for 6 years, in fact. I think that a measure of the success was knowing how listeners wanted the music presented on the radio.
Artists are uninhibited by the reality of radio. A few seconds or minutes more on a song is not an issue. In radio, time consumed in excess limits the variety of songs a station can play.
O
OldiesCat
Guest
edits
David, this will be one of the few things we will disagree on.
I don't think we can use the "this was the hit version 25 years ago" application anymore. The world of music has changed and when our consumers (the listeners) get music, it isn't just off the radio anymore. You download a song, you don't get edits-you get the CD version. This isn't some artsy-fartsy position because "this is how the artist intended it". It's all about the listener and over the year the listeners have bought billions of dollars worth of music they enjoy and (I'm speaking to library-type formats like classic rock, gold-based AC, 60s-70s Oldies, '80s, Jack, etc.) if their radio station expects to have any credibility with their audience, if they want to send the signal that it's all about them (the listener), we should deliver their music in the form they want most, the versions they bought and how they hear it at concerts.
And, you have to admit, those early 70s Chicago edits were atrocious! ;D
David, this will be one of the few things we will disagree on.
I don't think we can use the "this was the hit version 25 years ago" application anymore. The world of music has changed and when our consumers (the listeners) get music, it isn't just off the radio anymore. You download a song, you don't get edits-you get the CD version. This isn't some artsy-fartsy position because "this is how the artist intended it". It's all about the listener and over the year the listeners have bought billions of dollars worth of music they enjoy and (I'm speaking to library-type formats like classic rock, gold-based AC, 60s-70s Oldies, '80s, Jack, etc.) if their radio station expects to have any credibility with their audience, if they want to send the signal that it's all about them (the listener), we should deliver their music in the form they want most, the versions they bought and how they hear it at concerts.
And, you have to admit, those early 70s Chicago edits were atrocious! ;D
S
SmokeRing
Guest
To paraphrase Yoda, "This is why you fail, David."
Many of the radio fundamentals you refer to (and think you "understand") are allowing other media to leave radio in the dust. I'm sure you can cherry pick some research that says otherwise (can't every PD, GM, and consultant?), but today we're all blind if we don't see that other entertainment options have become much more...errr... entertaining... than radio.
People IN radio don't listen to radio anymore. These are the same people who grew up as radio addicts and thus chose careers in radio. It's a chore these days to monitor the competition. It's a chore to monitor your own station. Because the radio blue print is out of date--at least for most music formats.
One caveat: There are some talk options--both network and local--that continue to compare favorably to competition from other types of entertainment media.
M
MikeShannon914
Guest
Regarding the Cashbox note and WBAP a few posts back...It's my understanding that the gaps you mentioned (most notably right before the top of the hour) are for the delay to catch up. So 7-10 seconds of dead air could explain that.
I look at song chopping from a radio purist's standpoint. I'll put up with a shortened version of a song if that's the way it was usually played on the radio when it was new. Barry Manilow's "Could it Be Magic" was ALWAYS played as a shortened song until CDs came along. Now the short version is nearly non-existent (KEOM has it now, but that's a big exception.) Chicago's "Make Me Smile" was almost always chopped (the long version was apparently something conceived after the Chicago Transit Authority album came out...the album's version is an amalgamation of "Make Me Smile"/"Colour My World"/and a reprise of "Make Me Smile," all sandwiched together...BUT...the Rhino collection of Chicago's greatest hits that came out a couple of years ago has this extended version preserved on it.) The 45 version of "Beginnings" is horrible. Stevie Wonder's "Isn't She Lovely" was always edited for airplay (mercifully...the long version's pretty bad,) but that was a station deal, as it was never released as a single and never entered the Hot 100.
And then you have an exception that even David Eduardo would love...when the 1979 disco single of Herb Alpert's "Rise" was sent to England for airplay, no one bothered to tell the Brits that disco singles in the US were recorded at 33 1/3. (Theirs were recorded at 45 RPM.) So the version of "Rise" that topped the charts there was actually a grossly sped-up version of what hit in America...the jocks there (and the listeners) never knew any better. That'll knock that 6 min ditty down to 3:45 real quickly!!
But the WORST edits by far are the ones where some idiot simply fades down the song 2 mins early. The 45 version of "Owner of a Lonely Heart" (which The Bone now plays) is a good example.
I look at song chopping from a radio purist's standpoint. I'll put up with a shortened version of a song if that's the way it was usually played on the radio when it was new. Barry Manilow's "Could it Be Magic" was ALWAYS played as a shortened song until CDs came along. Now the short version is nearly non-existent (KEOM has it now, but that's a big exception.) Chicago's "Make Me Smile" was almost always chopped (the long version was apparently something conceived after the Chicago Transit Authority album came out...the album's version is an amalgamation of "Make Me Smile"/"Colour My World"/and a reprise of "Make Me Smile," all sandwiched together...BUT...the Rhino collection of Chicago's greatest hits that came out a couple of years ago has this extended version preserved on it.) The 45 version of "Beginnings" is horrible. Stevie Wonder's "Isn't She Lovely" was always edited for airplay (mercifully...the long version's pretty bad,) but that was a station deal, as it was never released as a single and never entered the Hot 100.
And then you have an exception that even David Eduardo would love...when the 1979 disco single of Herb Alpert's "Rise" was sent to England for airplay, no one bothered to tell the Brits that disco singles in the US were recorded at 33 1/3. (Theirs were recorded at 45 RPM.) So the version of "Rise" that topped the charts there was actually a grossly sped-up version of what hit in America...the jocks there (and the listeners) never knew any better. That'll knock that 6 min ditty down to 3:45 real quickly!!
But the WORST edits by far are the ones where some idiot simply fades down the song 2 mins early. The 45 version of "Owner of a Lonely Heart" (which The Bone now plays) is a good example.
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