Entercom HDs (WEEI on WKAF HD2)

[raccoonradio]

@bostonradio tweeted to ask me if WEEI was on the HD2 of WAAF 107.3...I replied that on my
HD portable (and I'm in Beverly MA):
107.3 WAAF-- no HDs at all
Transmitter: Stiles Hill, Boylston

97.7 WKAF --WAAF/WKAF is on their HD 1...WEEI is now on their HD 2
Transmitter: Great Blue Hill, Milton

93.7 WMKK: Their main signal is on the HD1, Funkytown is on their HD2. No HD 3 at all.
Transmitter: Lakeland Park Dr., Peabody

Maybe WAAF has HD 2, HD3 but I can't pick it up where I am.

HD2 a bit easier to pick up than an HD 3.

 

[Wbzfm2010]

well i was in Woonsocket ri today heading to pap johns!! and i noticed wkaf had no hd signal not even trying to decode on my jvc receiver which is strange since i can get a somewhat decent hd signal there, then all of a sudden the wkaf hd popped up but i never noticed to check the hd2 i will try in my house on my table top with a radio shack antenna attached!!

 

[Wbzfm2010]

waaf hd2 is weei cant get wkaf hd from here

 

[raccoonradio]

@bostonradio (Bost. Radio Watch) has gotten info, confirmed that WEEI is on the HD2s of both
WKAF 97.7 and WAAF 107.3...Look at a map, find Great Blue Hill, and note that the signal prob can easily get to Beverly...and it does. So that one works for me. Now will EEI mention the HD2s on air?
(do they have to include in an ID?...WXKS 1200 has run promos saying they're on Kiss's HD...)

So there you have it, WEEI is on FM signals nearby to Boston...IF you have an HD radio. So far only a few folks know or care enough about it to have bought one.

 

[DanStrassberg]

So there you have it, WEEI is on FM signals nearby to Boston...IF you have an HD radio. So far only a few folks know or care enough about it to have bought one.

So has Entercom turned its back on HD-3 channels on all three of its
Boston-market FMs? If so, why? Have any of Entercom's Boston FMs
_ever_ run HD-3? Is there some problem with the HD-3 channels? I guess
most stations' HD-3 channels are in mono--although I'm not sure of
that and I don't think I've heard that HD-3 channels are technically
constrained to run only in mono. I think I've heard that at least some
(maybe all?) of the Entercom FMs that are running WEEI on their main
analog channels are running it in stereo. So does Entercom have a rule
that any FM that carries WEEI must carry it in stereo even though the
mother ship is on AM and is therefore mono? If HD-3 _must_ be in mono
and the company has a rule that WEEI on FM _must_be in stereo, that
would rule out running WEEI on 93.7 HD-3 unless the company were
willing to move whatever is on 93.7 HD-2 to 93.7 HD-3 and change the
music that I gather is currently in stereo on HD-2 to mono on HD-3. I
can barely follow my own questions, which makes me wonder whether
anyone who isn't a radio geek could ever follow this discussion.

 

[mgpt6]

Most HD3 are mono because they get allotted 24kbps of bandwidth. Stereo would sound awful. need less for mono. I believe that the CBS-FMs have 48kbps for HD1 and HD2 and only 24 for HD3. Correct me if I am wrong , but the extended hybrid mote which adds the 24kbps for many HD3 has to come the extended bits and can not come from the basic 96 kbps. You could do 32, 32, 32 kbps and 24kbps . 96+24=120; but COULD NOT do 40+40+40 kbps.

 

[12 In a Row]

@bostonradio (Bost. Radio Watch) has gotten info, confirmed that WEEI is on the HD2s of both
WKAF 97.7 and WAAF 107.3...Look at a map, find Great Blue Hill, and note that the signal prob can easily get to Beverly...and it does. So that one works for me. Now will EEI mention the HD2s on air?
(do they have to include in an ID?...WXKS 1200 has run promos saying they're on Kiss's HD...)

So there you have it, WEEI is on FM signals nearby to Boston...IF you have an HD radio. So far only a few folks know or care enough about it to have bought one.

For WEEI's sake we can hope all 132 HD radios in Greater Boston are tuned in. 132, OK that might be a bit of an exaggeration.

 

[raccoonradio]

Just replied to Dan on boston-radio-interest; this:

So far it seems like none of them are running HD-3s, at least from
where I am in Beverly with that HD portable. They had tried WEEI on
the WMKK HD-3 for awhile...WMKK only has the HD2 with Funkytown, and
WAAF and WKAF have WEEI even though I think the HD2 on WAAF was
supposed to have been "live rock" or something. On the display of my
portable it just said "WKAF-HD 2", no mention of WEEI, and I'm too
far from WAAF to pick up any HDs. (The WKAF not a surprise when one
considers it's not all that far from
Great Blue Hill to just south of downtown Boston, then it's all water
from there to my home).

So yes Entercom had tried WEEI on the HD-3 of WMKK though quality mono
and not all that spectacular. They may not have figured it was worth
doing an HD-3, even on a talk (and play-by-play) signal such as WEEI
to be relayed.

I can't tell for sure if the WKAF (and WAAF) HD-2s running WEEI are in
stereo but they sounded fine to me from briefly tuning in during the
Red Sox game last night. Whether Ent, would switch Funkytown to an
HD-3 and make it mono, I doubt it but who knows. I would presume CBS
highlights the stereo sound/great acoustics they have on Patriots and
Bruins play by play (those pucks hitting the glass, those players
banging into each other etc.) and I don't know if they'd consider
doing Red Sox or Celtics games in stereo as well. From what I can
gather, when FMs carry the Sox (like WBOQ) it's probably mono, but who
knows..

 

[DanStrassberg]

Most HD3 are mono because they get allotted 24kbps of bandwidth. Stereo would sound awful. need less for mono. I believe that the CBS-FMs have 48kbps for HD1 and HD2 and only 24 for HD3. Correct me if I am wrong , but the extended hybrid mote which adds the 24kbps for many HD3 has to come the extended bits and can not come from the basic 96 kbps. You could do 32, 32, 32 kbps and 24kbps . 96+24=120; but COULD NOT do 40+40+40 kbps.

I thought I had read, six or more months ago, that a way had been found to increase the aggregate bit rate of the HD channels on an FM signal and I thought it was claimed that the resulting datastream would be compatible with existing HD radios. Transmitters/modulators could be a different story, though. Part of the scheme might involve using a second datastream that is part of the original HD system but that many stations may not currently be using. Anyhow, I am lacking a lot of information about that second datastream and where it is in the spectrum of OFDM carriers that surround the main carrier and the analog modulation. I also don't know how much additional bit-rate becomes available to a station that uses this system or whether the bit rate of the secondary datastream can be grafted at will onto the bit rate associated with the other HD-N subchannels. If the additional datastream can add 24 kbps and that bit-rate can be deployed at will and received appropriately, 48/48/48 kbps for HD-1/-2/-3 would appear to be possible. I'm embarassed that I can't remember the name of the poster who originally wrote about the additional datastream.

 

[fybush]

The answer, Dan, was in the very post to which you were replying. The "extended hybrid" mode has been around for a while. It adds additional OFDM carriers that are closer to the carrier frequency (in the +/- 101-129 kHz range, if memory serves) to provide another partition that can carry a 24 kbps stream - but that bandwidth can't be combined with the 96 kbps in the main partition. Figure 5 here illustrates how it all comes together:

http://www.hd-radio-home.com/hd-radio-technology.html

I don't know of any compatibility problems with receivers decoding the extended partitions. Maybe the very first generation of radios might have had problems, but I don't believe those could handle HD subchannels at all, so the issue's moot anyway.

 

[Wbzfm2010]

where i am driving around my area although spotty!! i can receive both waaf,wkaf in hd so i heard both waaf has weei in the info section,but the audio is behind of whats on wkaf hd2, but there the audio quality is poor and you need to turn up the radio louder especially during commercials!!

 

[DanStrassberg]

The answer, Dan, was in the very post to which you were replying. The "extended hybrid" mode has been around for a while. It adds additional OFDM carriers that are closer to the carrier frequency (in the +/- 101-129 kHz range, if memory serves) to provide another partition that can carry a 24 kbps stream - but that bandwidth can't be combined with the 96 kbps in the main partition. Figure 5 here illustrates how it all comes together:

http://www.hd-radio-home.com/hd-radio-technology.html

I don't know of any compatibility problems with receivers decoding the extended partitions. Maybe the very first generation of radios might have had problems, but I don't believe those could handle HD subchannels at all, so the issue's moot anyway.

Those extra carriers fit into bands that immediately adjoin the main OFDM carriers, so although it may be impossible to graft the bit rate of the additional carriers onto the bit rate of the main carriers, it certainly isn't obvious from the figure that it would be impossible. Well, it isn't obvious to me, anyhow.

 

[fybush]

No, it's not obvious, and had the system been designed from the start with subchannels in mind, it might well have been easily accomplished. But I'm told by Those Who Should Know that it's not possible to combine the extended partition with the main partition for whatever reason.

 

[DanStrassberg]

No, it's not obvious, and had the system been designed from the start with subchannels in mind, it might well have been easily accomplished. But I'm told by Those Who Should Know that it's not possible to combine the extended partition with the main partition for whatever reason.

What about putting one of the two HD-3 stereo channels on the last 24 kbps of the main ensemble of OFDM carriers and the other HD-3 stereo channel on the 24 kbps of the auxiliary ensemble? As long as this combination did not screw up the stereo phasing, it would seem workable.

Here's a wrinkle that would probably be incompatible with all existing HD receivers but nevertheless might offer some advantages: Put L+R of the HD-3 content on the datastream of the the main carriers and L-R of that content on the datastream of the auxiliary carriers. Such an approach might reduce the power of the auxiliary carriers' spectrum because the datastream carried by the auxiliary carriers would carry a lower average level of modulation. Of course, it would require (trivially simple) analog signal processing to reconstitute the L and R channels' content. An advantage of this approach is that existing HD receivers ought to be able to receive the (stereo) HD-3 subchannel in mono without hardware modifications. Not a trivial advantage because I would expect some unhappiness among people who had recently purchased HD receivers and suddenly found that they were unable to receive the HD-3 subchannel.

 

[Jimmy128]

Where I live in the North Shore, I'm about 5 miles away from WMKK transmitter so I got WMKK HD3 perfectly. But WKAF HD2 comes in spotty at best and I can't get WAAF on HD at all. So they lost the North Shore. Why not keep it on WMKK HD3 as well as the other stations?


Also, it looks like CBS beat Entercom to the punch by blowing up WBCN on 104.1 and putting WBZ FM on 98.5. Entercom could have done the same with WAAF/WKAF, but the question is what would they do with a redundant AM station?

Also CBS has HD3 stations. Why not Entercom, especially when it's a talk/sports station that dosen't even need to be in stereo?

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Entercom could have done the same with WAAF/WKAF...

Why would they blow up a station that makes money?

 

[raccoonradio]

@bostonradio noted on twitter:

>>WEEI's move to HD2 at 107.3/97.7 is part of company-wide strategy. Looking at their other markets - Portland,OR, Buffalo, KC, Sacramento, Milwaukee - have all moved local sports talker to FM HD2 in recents months. Only exception is NO(ESPN 1350). So actually Boston is the last market where they shifted AM sports talker to FM HD2

 

[raccoonradio]

Note the following comment to a post on Boston Sports Media Watch:

ORIG POST: http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2011/07/guest-column-the-big-drop-part-ii#idc-container

COMMENT, written by "TTFK":
>>WEEI needs more than just an FM signal in Boston; they need a more consistent signal along the Pike. Nothing is more annoying that having to fumble around between AM and FM several times as I'm driving across the state just because they can't get a decent signal into central MA. Many days, I just flip over to 98.5 somewhere around Brimfield and leave it there all the way to New Bedford and back around to Providence. Why bother fumbling back and forth with 105.5, 1440, 96.3 and 103.7?

 

[Jimmy128]

@bostonradio noted on twitter:

>>WEEI's move to HD2 at 107.3/97.7 is part of company-wide strategy. Looking at their other markets - Portland,OR, Buffalo, KC, Sacramento, Milwaukee - have all moved local sports talker to FM HD2 in recents months. Only exception is NO(ESPN 1350). So actually Boston is the last market where they shifted AM sports talker to FM HD2

All well and good but they could have kept it on WMKK HD3 as well.

 

[raccoonradio]

It may be; keep in mind I'm here in Beverly maybe 6 mi. from their stick but I couldn't pick up anything on WMKK HD 3 the other night. Someone else said they were 5 mi away and they could pick it up (i.e., doing WEEI on the HD 3?)