Entry-level talent: Does a college degree matter?

[hammondo]

The incidents I cited all happened in the 70's. Your comment about
"ego-tripping outlet for programs that most people could care less about" is spot on!

The local college kids, and even local people with some basic skills were usually better hires, maybe because they knew more about the local "culture" where a b/c school grad (especially the big city people) had different expectations. Teaching "radio" is easier than teaching "life" skills and morality.

When we sold, the new owner quickly went satellite. After 20 years, he has only recently gone back to a bit of local/live, doing it "himself."

Can't say I blame him.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Let's just clarify that there is a huge difference between broadcast school graduates, graduates of college broadcasting/media/communications programs, and college graduates in general. There's also a huge difference between broadcast school graduates and graduates of two-year colleges with broadcasting/media/communications programs.

Broadcast school graduates for the most part receive training, not education, and pay a lot of money for it. Colleges - both 2 year and 4 year - require a much broader variety of courses, and require at least basic English and Math skills. Even the experience of being in class with non-broadcast majors widens their experience and viewpoint significantly.

Is a college degree an indication of talent? No, but it may be an indication of discipline, which is every bit as important as talent in the real world. How many of us have know wildly talented people who couldn't hold a job because they were out of control, lacked the innate ability to "edit on the fly", and/or couldn't get themselves to work reliably? How many of us have know marginally-talented people who went on to big things because they had the discipline to improve their skills, work within their own (and the boss's) boundaries, and GET THE JOB DONE. A college degree is generally an indicator that a prospective employee knows how to finish.

 

[oaktree]

Interesting discussion on this thread. Having rejected college/university trained radio wannabe's who flaunted their AA degrees or their Liberal Arts ones and, truly, expected to make the big money right after they got the sheepskin, I remember the other side...

The kid who practically slept on the doorway of the Top 40 station near every weekend. Carried the "record box" to remotes for the "boss jocks" or "good guys," always helped, on his own, to break down a remote. Eventually, the kid with the guts to cut a demo tape in his church basement from a Garrard turntable and a Wolensak tape deck -- turning in at least 50 of them, just to get a jocks ear on "how can I be better?"

The same kid who, finally, asked, "If you needed some help on the weekend, would you consider me?" Instead of, "Uh, you got any openings?"

The person who gladly worked Sunday mornings, though he was told to leave the Led Zeppelin records alone, despite "his personal taste" ...and followed the format out of fear that the format police would come in with guns drawn.

The one who got "promoted" to the all-night shift, and never worried about the "skimmer" air check machine in the PD's locked office. He took direction and criticism just like "the big guys" -- even when he screwed up. Doing the all night-shift was, at his point in life, like doing morning drive ... which he eventually did, several times over -- until he got it right and moved to better opportunities.

The person who would come to the station on Friday and "ask" if he could have "last week's" tossed copies of R&R, Billboard, FMQB, Cashbox, Record World, Gavin, etc ... and then procede to go through every trash can in the building...and took them out to the dumpster as a way of saying "Thanks."

The kid who would aircheck himself when the PD wouldn't waste the time.

The same one who would wear the title of "Public Service Director" as a badge of honor, not demotion...and really did something with it.

The one not afraid to ask about how a radio station made money...

The one would entertain us with the latest bits from Lujack, Ingram, Brittain, Pip, Rivers, Imus, The Greaseman and, if we allowed, dozens of others.

Someone who not only wrote copy in longhand, but retyped it and submitted it ... "just to help out."

The one not afraid to work 6pm Christmas Eve to noon Christmas Day.

And then, after two years...left for a "real" radio station, and then an even bigger one, then became a rated jock, a good sales rep, a sales manager, programmer, operations manager, a syndicator, a station owner and, still, kept his head on straight -- thanking his lucky stars for a not-bad career.

Yep ... I knew one of those kids, once.

Who dropped out of college and told his dad, "I'll pay the tuition back to you," ... and did.

It's humbling after 38 years to remember those days, now, as I look to buy two more...

 

[hammondo]

Oaktree, where were YOU from 1983-1985?

The guy who "left the led zep records alone." ha! We had to convert from records to (first) cassettes (even sounded good on am) then to carts so people wouldn't bring their own stuff in or steal the music we had.

Congratulations and more power to you. I got out with a million, 300,000 dollars in 1985 (a great profit and am very happy-and more important so is my wife) and NOTHING could get me back.

Best wishes on your "2 more." You can have my share.

 

[oaktree]

Tyler, Texas...OM at a country Class A FM and a Black Urban AM daytimer... Some of my favorite days.

 

[radioray]

There are several communications degrees at universities that are definitely worth the time and money.

Brown (have their own commercial station)
Dartmouth (same)
Northwestern
USC
Boston College
Boston University (dont confuse with Boston College, not the same school).
Syracuse (Annanberg School).
Stanford.
Colgate

You wont go wrong because even if you dont learn everything you need, you always have the name of the school and the diploma to falll back on.

 

[hammondo]

Thanks, Oaktree. My "where were you" should have read '73-85.

Those were my ownership years, starting with an am daytimer, ending w/that daytimer and 3 fm's, including 106.3 in Columbia City (station now in Ft. Wayne, IN.

 

[kenhawk1160]

There are several communications degrees at universities that are definitely worth the time and money.

Brown (have their own commercial station)
Dartmouth (same)
Northwestern
USC
Boston College
Boston University (dont confuse with Boston College, not the same school).
Syracuse (Annanberg School).
Stanford.
Colgate

You wont go wrong because even if you dont learn everything you need, you always have the name of the school and the diploma to falll back on.

Here's a couple others...

Point Park College, Pittsburgh, PA
Westminster College, New Wilmington, PA

And up until the early 90's, the University of Dayton had its own commercial Lite AC station...WVUD, "Delightful 100", programmed by none other than the great Reed Kittridge, now at WHMI-FM 105.5 in Howell, MI.

 

[Chuck]

As someone who went the college route, I can tell you that when I was immediately out of school, the diploma (a Master's Degree) was of little cash value by itself. On the other hand, the experience I gained from getting it would be hard to replace. Among the things I did while in school was manage the school's radio station. Of course, I learned a lot about radio, but more importantly, I learned a lot of the realities of small business, dealing with employees, and dealing with over-seers who had little interest in the product, but still held the purse strings. (Sound familiar?) It was a great learning experience.

While in college, several job opportunities opened up to me that I don’t think would have been available had I not been enrolled in school. Like many things, it’s not always what you know, but who you know. College can provide a fairly extensive network of friends. No, those jobs did not make me rich or famous, but I got an incredible amount of experience from them in major market situations. It was "sink of swim" with the big fish. I'm sure I learned a lot more about the broadcast industry out of school than while I sat through classes, but the point is the over-all experience was very beneficial to me.

Better yet, I learned a lot of things in my regular classes that had absolutely nothing to do with broadcasting. It’s a good idea to have some knowledge past one subject. Some of the non-broadcast specific things I learned have served me very well in the nearly 40 years since I graduated. Career paths don't always go the way you think they will. Mine didn't. Sometimes opportunities just open up, and you may find yourself doing something that you never dreamed of. Life is like that. Being versatile is simply money in the bank.

Speaking of money in the bank, statistics will tell you that people with a college degree make a lot more money than those who don't have one. That is not always the case in broadcasting, but over all, it rings true. There are always the exceptions. Those people are the superstars who would be foolish to opt out of immediate big money to get a degree. You see this a lot in athletics, and even in my own college experience there were two or three people who briefly attended classes, but they were already way past whatever the school could teach about broadcasting. They were probably making more money at age 20 than any of their college professors.

If you already have incredible talent, then perhaps a degree will mean very little to you. Some very successful people I know have only had 6th grade educations, but I can't help but think that they sometimes regret that. In any case, having a degree is living proof that you were willing to stick with a task long enough to actually finish it. In many employers’ eyes, that is important. Nobody wants to hire someone who quits, or who they know will be leaving as soon as they get a better offer. Going to college certainly won’t hurt you, and it may very well broaden your outlook on the world. That’s not all bad.

 

[bierkenstock]

There are several communications degrees at universities that are definitely worth the time and money.

Brown (have their own commercial station)
Dartmouth (same)
Northwestern
USC
Boston College
Boston University (dont confuse with Boston College, not the same school).
Syracuse (Annanberg School).
Stanford.
Colgate

You wont go wrong because even if you dont learn everything you need, you always have the name of the school and the diploma to falll back on.

Syracuse is the Newhouse School for Public Communication; not "Annanberg" (sic).
The Annenberg Schools for Communication are located at the University of Pennsylvania and The University of Southern California. These programs are primarily communication theory and research programs (not communications arts), as is the Stanford program. Colgate, Dartmouth and Brown do not offer a major in communications, broadcasting or journalism. Colgate does offer a minor in film and media studies. Dartmouth offers film and television studies and theater. Brown offers modern culture and the media.

Most schools have student-operated stations; many have public radio stations. Almost all have a school newspaper.

However, the best programs for providing a practical grounding to a career in radio, including mundane aspects like fact checking and spelling, plus a general college-level education are the major state universities in the Big 10, Big Eight, Pac 10 and the University of Texas.

Any broadcaster should get to know the department chairmen of the broadcasting-relevant degree programs in his state. Making contact with someone in the placement offices is a good idea, too. Get involved in their internship programs. Even if you're not close to campus, there are probably students from your area in the program who could be potential intern candidates during summers. Small stations have turn-over. Don't wait for an opening to begin cultivating a pool of talent. If you hire beginners with talent and potential, they will leave in a year or two. They may not always be easy to work with; few talented broadcasters are goody-two-shoes. But you will be getting more than your money's worth before they leave and it's time to break in somebody else for the big time.

And some of you need to remember with whom you're dealing. These are kids. And the kinds of kids who want to go into radio are often also drawn to sex, drugs and rock n' roll. Few broadcasting majors wear ties and carry briefcases on campus. Remember, you may not have been the paragon of reliability and responsibility you are now when you were 22. I wonder what your first boss had to say about you. Stop being so judgmental. Some of you remind me of managers I worked for starting out. I didn't listen to them because I didn't like them or respect them. None of them ran good stations, stations with which I was proud to be associated and so I quickly came not to care much. And when I did go the extra mile for them, they never showed any appreciation. Mostly all they cared about was money and impressing the local gentry so they could join the country club.

 

[hammondo]

Mr bierkenstock, said;
And some of you need to remember with whom you're dealing. These are kids. And the kinds of kids who want to go into radio are often also drawn to sex, drugs and rock n' roll.

Then he said;
Remember, you may not have been the paragon of reliability and responsibility you are now when you were 22. I wonder what your first boss had to say about you. Stop being so judgmental.
____
OK....
Pardon me Mr. B, sir, but read that paragraph above and tell ME who's judgemental. Sounds like YOU to me. My comments were FACTUAL abut what happened to me. Those stories (below) really happened. If Howard Cunningham hired these people for his Milwaukee hardware store, he would have KILLED them.

First (your suggestion of ) sex drugs and rock and roll as the norm
are hardly a qualification for a radio career or an excuse for any bad
behavior. I had a fabulous educaton, and after radio, 5 more years of masters and higher study for my present (healthcare related) position.

When I was 22, I barely knew what IT (swinging down there)
was for, because I was so interested in RADIO I would have worked for free. My first boss made a sucker out of me.

This first boss (from whom I eventually bough his (and his 4 partners, also his robbery victims) F%^&ed up station and turned it around) was a lying, dishonest, THIEF. That's just being honest - and those words about him were polite, believe me.

I was not only the "paragon of reliability and responsibility" (at 20 not 22) I covered up for his sorry butt a thousand times dealing with his sucker, um..customers. He couldn't get up to sign on the station - so I got to be "the morning man."

After he croaked I gave nearly EVERYBODY MAKE GOODS on nearly everything they crabbed about- but the station became a success (because of my wife and I and 2 college kids) DESPITE his 10 years of
chronic robbery of everyone and mis-management.

The people in thus small town, practically had a PARTY when he dropped dead at age 47 of a heart attack, probably because he couldn't remember WHICH LIE HE TOLD TO WHOM.

Later, I was able to buy his pitiful station and QUINTUPLE the BILLING in 3 months! After that I bought 3 more stations, and found and sold a few more constructiion permits.

This was in large part due to those people who I socialized with
(called customers) at the country club you so apparently disdain.
To be their friend required being part of their "club." That's how it works.

O, and my wife and I gave payroll loans (and lots of other favors)to a
few of those specs guys (who never paid us back). Those "kids" lied to and screwed everything that walked, and would probably be just getting out of jail now (21 years later) if I didn't know the police chief.

If you like, I know where you can get a bag!

Mr. Bierkenstock, I also find it horrible that you apparently condemn "young people" with those generalities in your post.
Does stealing, drug abuse, dishonesty and sloth (even poor grooming habits) come from sex drugs and rock and roll, too?

I used to be young - but having the morals of Tony Soprano wasn't
part of my youth.

You'lll be glad to know that I sold all my holdings to a doctor (who now has 5 more competitors than I had) - and I retired in '85 with a million 300,000 invested very well.

Since then I bought and sold 2 funeral homes, and now do non-profit "work."

I was fortunate lived my dream (my way) for those years, and ended up VERY BLESSED - and am very glad its done.

Good luck to you.

 

[hammondo]

0

 

[oaktree]

"I wonder what your first boss had to say about you."

Well, good point. My first GM & PD boss (in a Top 75 market) thought I was a 17-year-old teenage "radio geek" who needed to go play outside once in awhile and not "live" radio while in high school. They both got fired, I didn't (not then...)

I'm certainly no paragon of virtue. I got fired for dropping the F-bomb with an open mike on a top 6 market Top 40 station. I was 20 at the time. The PD and I are now very good friends and have been for 38 years.

I did go to college, but quit ... but agree that the discipline was well-worth it. It was the Biology and diagramming of sentences part I didn't respond to so well as learning "record cueing 101" and what transmitter meters meant, not to mention what the meaning of the words, "Hey you! Watch your levels!" (probably 1000 times ... if not more.) I thought "Hey you" was my new air name for awhile.

I also paid back my Dad's share of the tuition. It sure beat paying rent at home...and I was pleased that I could do both - go to school and work fulltime. A learning experience for sure. And a pride builder, I admit.

I also learned that no matter what a creative genious I thought I was at 20, I learned not to turn the little cranks on a 5-tower directional phasor while doing all-nights, so my girlfriend 90 miles away could hear me (true story...) I also learned that people in Atlantic City listened a LOT to WABC at all hours and didn't much take to the interference I was causing them.

Thank God for label maker tape with the right numbers on them and that I didn't forget to set them back to the right positions. Of course, I thought I was brave enough because I had come from a station with up to a half dozen or more pattern changes in a single day...

I would say that through the ensuing years, I had a blessed career because I learned, most, to listen to others who had been there - done that and were, in fact, very successful in the industry. (Still are.) A few I count as the best friends I have. Others still say that it's hard to believe how I got to be so lucky ... when I know that I did and worked at it on purpose to lower the odds on "lucky."

And, I still play golf at muni courses. I'm not big on the country club environment.

As for "making money" ... show me a commercial radio station that doesn't work for "the money" and I'll show you why a friend of mine is buying dark or distressed AM & FM radio stations and I'm not far behind him.

I've been fortunate and lucky with several young people who have come to the real world of "entry-level radio" and did quite well for themselves - in and out of radio, with full-ride scholarships to college, and some who paid their way, in particular, in small towns. Not a perfect 1.000 record, but then, what is?

Finally, though I'm sure that my alma mater is far more successful without my being there to finish out, I still have yet to dissect a frog or, even after doing 8 years in newspaper management, have yet to diagram a sentence. I barely know a dangling participle from an action verb -- as several can attest on these boards...

 

[radioman1380]

Having been associated with radio broadcasting for nearly 40 years as a DJ, program director, station manager and owner, I have often made the comment..."I'll take someone with 6 months on-the-job training over someone just out of college with a 4 year degree in communications, anytime." There is nothing like the 'real' world when it comes to getting into radio. In most cases, what is taught in the classroom is not the way it is in the real world of radio. There are the basics that can be associated with most every facility but there are always aspects of the business that are unique to individual stations. The best education in broadcasting, other than hands-on, is taking courses that are actually taught by those who live and breathe broadcasting as part of their everyday lives. I have a lot of people to thank for my on-the-job education in broadcasting. The people who had been there...done that.

 

[hammondo]

"Basic radio skills" can be taught quickly. Card readers that don't stumble are ok for some situations.

If you need someone to do news (andf not sound ignorant), read live ads (and sound confident and friendly), or speak at length, they need to at least be able to "bs" their way through it. Some people can - some cannot. Usually a bs'er is revealed quite rapidly.

Some one who has college AND USES IT - can sound superior if they can speak in a grammatically correct sentence, and be well read (or can Google fast enough).

I'm 57. IMHO, In my parents generation, (radio in the 50's/60's) radio people with less education, but great ability and attitude (without the sarcasm) sounded FAR SUPERIOR to most of the dolts (Stern wannabees) who broadcast today.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Perhaps it's time to look at your audience. If you want a college-educated audience with a broad base of interests, you'd better find jocks who can relate to that audience. If you want to deal with local business people, you need people who can relate to them and their businesses.

College almost invariably broadens your interests and life experiences. If you want to appeal to a broader base of people, you need to be able to converse on their level, understand complex concepts, have an interest in the arts, and express yourself intelligently and grammatically. Is it possible to do this without a college education? Yes - but only if you read much more widely, write well, and have a firmer foundation in the English language than most high school graduates.

 

[kenhawk1160]

Having been associated with radio broadcasting for nearly 40 years as a DJ, program director, station manager and owner, I have often made the comment..."I'll take someone with 6 months on-the-job training over someone just out of college with a 4 year degree in communications, anytime." There is nothing like the 'real' world when it comes to getting into radio. In most cases, what is taught in the classroom is not the way it is in the real world of radio. There are the basics that can be associated with most every facility but there are always aspects of the business that are unique to individual stations. The best education in broadcasting, other than hands-on, is taking courses that are actually taught by those who live and breathe broadcasting as part of their everyday lives. I have a lot of people to thank for my on-the-job education in broadcasting. The people who had been there...done that.

Radioman, I commend you on that post. I've been in the business myself for 20 years and I got my first gig while a freshman at one of Pennsylvania's 14 state-owned universities. I didn't finish (and I wish I had), because of the reasons that the other posters had given...the life experience that goes with the degree.

However, I was able to jump ahead of my classmates through my part-time radio job and get experience that nobody had or even dreamed of having. I ended up getting fired from that job 13 months later, and admittedly, I wasn't mature enough to handle it. But it was a mistake I didn't soon repeat.

I was able to take that experience and score another part-time radio job in two months, while my classmates were still serving their unpaid 40-hour-a-week internships.

This is why I don't consider "college radio" as valuable "experience" from a candidate, unless it's from any of the schools that I had mentioned in my earlier posts. After my latest part-timer failure in 2002 (who was the GM of the campus radio station AND came highly recommended!), I decided to go back in my files and interview a kid who applied with us almost two years ago, who was still in high school at the time. He's now in college and still at that same station during the summer (though I have moved on since), and he's one of the most reliable people they have. He started rough, but he's gotten much better and learned everything rather quickly.