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Evaluation of Miami Radio

> > Americana
>
> Only works in a few markets, not ones that are over 50%
> ethnic.
>
> > Big Band/Swing (like WDBF was)
>
> Too old to make money. Also no ethnic appeal.

You think Big Bands stopped at the border?

> > Bluegrass (like WSWN was)
>
> Works nowhere, for all practical purposes.
>
> > Classical (like WTMI was)
>
> Unless non-com, no way at today's prices.
>
> > Country Traditional/Oldies
>
> Modern country barely survives. traditional only works in
> heavy coutry markets, and not too well in most cases.
>
> > Disco (like WMGE was)
>
> Except for NY, where there are 2 million Puerto Ricans,
> works nowhere.
>
> > Doo-Wop and 50s Oldies (like WBSS was)
>
> I do not think this works anywhere, either.

Search the web.

> > Indian (like WHSR on Saturdays)
>
> As in tamil or Hindi? Or Mikosukee?

OK... Indian/Pakistani/Sri Lankan (nice music, even if you can't understand the words).

> > Jazz Fusion
> > Jazz Traditional
>
> No jazz works anywhere in the US except Love 94 type jazz.

Which sucks. It's for people who are afraid to try real jazz and prefer this putrid variation of pop.

> > Jewish (like WLVJ on Sundays)
>
> Even quit working in NY, which is why the station was sold.
>
> > Music of Your Life (like WLQY was)
>
> No money.
>
> > Reggae
>
> Not one in the US. Not one even 100% in Jamaica.
>
> > Talk - Non-Syndicated/Local (like WFTL and WKAT were)
>
> WAQI and WQBA are local talk.

So you're saying that the audiences for all these formats should be discarded amd we should have merely stations with rock, rap, pop, or Spanish programming because they are most profitable?<P ID="signature">______________
The New News/Talk WKAT ... Unforgettable WJNA</P>
 
>
> You think Big Bands stopped at the border?

American big bands did. Latin America had its own bands, which were similar but with totally different rhythms and styles... remember Ricky Ricardo?
> >
> > No jazz works anywhere in the US except Love 94 type jazz.
>
>
> Which sucks. It's for people who are afraid to try real jazz
> and prefer this putrid variation of pop.

Since my first job was with a jazz staiton (Coltrane and coleman, not Kenny G), I know how bad it does.
> >
> > WAQI and WQBA are local talk.
>
> So you're saying that the audiences for all these formats
> should be discarded amd we should have merely stations with
> rock, rap, pop, or Spanish programming because they are most
> profitable?

Profit is the reason why all US commercial staitons exist. Many of the formats you suggest are viable attractive menu ofptions for satellite and webcasting, but can not sustain a terrestrial station.
 
> > > In the case of the Miami MSA, nearly 45% of the
> population
> >
> > > is Hispanic and more than 80% are Spanish dominant or
> > > Bilingual with Spanish as their main langauge.
> >
> > But the Miami-Fort Lauderdale MARKET includes stations
> > licensed to cities in Broward such as Hollywood (WLQY),
> Fort
> > Lauderdale (WHYI, WMIB, WSRF, WBGG, WRMA), Davie (WAVS),
> and
> > Pompano Beach (WHSR, WWNN, WMXJ).
>
> Sorry, I may have not been clear enough. 80% of the
> Hispanics are Spanish dominant or Spanish primary.

There are still enough English people down in South Florida to support some other English format. It can't be all Spanish.

> > Americana
>
> Only works in a few markets, not ones that are over 50%
> ethnic.
>
> > Big Band/Swing (like WDBF was)
>
> Too old to make money. Also no ethnic appeal.
>
> > Bluegrass (like WSWN was)
>
> Works nowhere, for all practical purposes.
>
> > Classical (like WTMI was)
>
> Unless non-com, no way at today's prices.
>
> > Country Traditional/Oldies
>
> Modern country barely survives. traditional only works in
> heavy coutry markets, and not too well in most cases.
>
> > Disco (like WMGE was)
>
> Except for NY, where there are 2 million Puerto Ricans,
> works nowhere.
>
> > Doo-Wop and 50s Oldies (like WBSS was)
>
> I do not think this works anywhere, either.
>
> > Indian (like WHSR on Saturdays)
>
> As in tamil or Hindi? Or Mikosukee?
>
> > Jazz Fusion
> > Jazz Traditional
>
> No jazz works anywhere in the US except Love 94 type jazz.
>
> > Jewish (like WLVJ on Sundays)
>
> Even quit working in NY, which is why the station was sold.
>
> > Music of Your Life (like WLQY was)
>
> No money.
>
> > Reggae
>
> Not one in the US. Not one even 100% in Jamaica.
>
> > Talk - Non-Syndicated/Local (like WFTL and WKAT were)
>
> WAQI and WQBA are local talk.
>
<P ID="signature">______________
freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews</P>
 
> > >
> > Maybe one of those multitudes of Spanish stations that are
>
> > not billing up to expectations should consider switching
> to
> > a classical format. Just think...en Vivo Beethoven!
> >
>
> I don't know of a single AM classical that is successful in
> the US. And the Spanish language FMs are all billing very
> big figures and are quite profitable. So the probablility of
> this happening is less than zero.
>

WQXR in New York isn't doing too badly, not real good though. They billed about $15 million. Why do radio companies have to be so greedy?<P ID="signature">______________
freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews</P>
 
> >
> > I don't know of a single AM classical that is successful
> in
> > the US. And the Spanish language FMs are all billing very
> > big figures and are quite profitable. So the probablility
> of
> > this happening is less than zero.
> >
>
> WQXR in New York isn't doing too badly, not real good
> though. They billed about $15 million. Why do radio
> companies have to be so greedy?

WQXR is not an AM. And it is "subsidized" by the New York Times in the sense that the Times obviously likes the associated image of providing a cultural service to the market.

Considering that the major NY FMs bill over $40 million, $15 is a poor performance were it not for the image benefit.

All businesses want to make as much as they can. If I own a hardware store in a small town, and decide that gardening supplies are not "hardware" I am being dumb, and need to add that line to my store. Otherwise, I am losing money on lost sales.

A McDonalds or an HMO or a stock brokerage or a radio station exist to make a good return on the investment. There is nothing greedy in wanting to make as much as is possible with a station. Obciously, a good broadcaster looks at the immediate and long range future together, and does not make short term sacrifices that will diminish future returns.
>
 
> All businesses want to make as much as they can. If I own a
> hardware store in a small town, and decide that gardening
> supplies are not "hardware" I am being dumb, and need to add
> that line to my store. Otherwise, I am losing money on lost
> sales.

Not at all.

Only if added revenue from gardening stuff exceeds lost revenue from the items you had to take off the shelves to make room for it.

But...

If no one lese in town is fulfilling the need for gardening supplies, go for it.

Similarly...

Everyone in town is selling rap, rock, and pop.

The classical customers are being ignored and the jazz customers are sold Brand X (smooth jazz) because they don't know any better.

You don't need the biggest store in town to serve either market. They'd appreciate and do business with even a small, old-fashioned, un-air-conditioned low-rent store.

73s from 954<P ID="signature">______________
The New News/Talk WKAT ... Unforgettable WJNA</P>
 
>
> The classical customers are being ignored and the jazz
> customers are sold Brand X (smooth jazz) because they don't
> know any better.
>
> You don't need the biggest store in town to serve either
> market. They'd appreciate and do business with even a small,
> old-fashioned, un-air-conditioned low-rent store.

If I remember correctly, at one time, WLRN, like many public radio stations, had a ton of traditional jazz and classical programming...interesting that as they (and other public radio) dropped the music and went with NPR talk format, their listenership has increased - dramatically.

In South Florida, Woody Tanger and Cox tried to make a go of classical and it didn't work. Numbers were okay, not great but okay, but no sales. Don't blame them - blame it on the media buyers who are so female 25-54 focused.

As for the belief that people might listen to a "small old fashioned, un-air-conditioned low rent store" I think the classical WKAT experiment proves that wrong...although based on their even worse results with their new neo-nazi format, they may be looking back fondly......
 
WKAT & WLRN & WTMI

> If I remember correctly, at one time, WLRN, like many public
> radio stations, had a ton of traditional jazz and classical
> programming...interesting that as they (and other public
> radio) dropped the music and went with NPR talk format,
> their listenership has increased - dramatically.

They're competing for the leftist Air America audience. Hardly serving the public interest as a station owned by the school board should be.

> In South Florida, Woody Tanger and Cox tried to make a go of
> classical and it didn't work.

Cox didn't try. They had their plans to switch way before they closed the sale.

> Numbers were okay, not great
> but okay, but no sales. Don't blame them - blame it on the
> media buyers who are so female 25-54 focused.

Oh, women don't like classical music? It's a guy thing?

WTMI was Classical for 30 years 8 months and two weeks. (See WTMI's 30th Birthday.) I don't think your "tried to make a go of classical and it didn't work" is supported by the facts. Woody sold because Cox made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

> As for the belief that people might listen to a "small old
> fashioned, un-air-conditioned low rent store" I think the
> classical WKAT experiment proves that wrong.

Classical WKAT was mismanaged from day one (hiring Dee Silvers as PD) to the pathetic brokered end. Don't ask me, look up classical music writer Lawrence Johnson's articles in the Sun-Sentinel.

I removed your libelous remarks about WKAT's new format. I won't comment on them except to say that you detract from the credibility of your other comments with that vicious stupid remark. An apology might help remedy that.

73s from 954<P ID="signature">______________
The New News/Talk WKAT ... Unforgettable WJNA</P>
 
>
> In South Florida, Woody Tanger and Cox tried to make a go of
> classical and it didn't work. Numbers were okay, not great
> but okay, but no sales. Don't blame them - blame it on the
> media buyers who are so female 25-54 focused.

Just a small point. Media buyers don't pick the demos for a campaign. Media planners don't, either. Media Directors don't. Account executives don't. Product targeting is decided on by the advertiser at the management, product design and marketing level... often well before a product is developed.

Ad agencies generally do not influence demos.
 
David, be careful when you use the word "all." I know of some religous commercial stations that exist to preach the gospel to the world. WQXR was mentioned and there may be other motives besides profit for NY Times operating WQXR.


>
> Profit is the reason why all US commercial staitons exist.
> Many of the formats you suggest are viable attractive menu
> ofptions for satellite and webcasting, but can not sustain a
> terrestrial station.
>
<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>
 
> David, be careful when you use the word "all." I know of
> some religous commercial stations that exist to preach the
> gospel to the world. WQXR was mentioned and there may be
> other motives besides profit for NY Times operating WQXR.

I think that the usage of the term "commercial staitons" limits my statement to those that intend to make a profit. Even WQXR, part of the publicly held New York Times, would not last long did nit not makes some money.
 
> David, be careful when you use the word "all." I know of
> some religous commercial stations that exist to preach the
> gospel to the world. WQXR was mentioned and there may be
> other motives besides profit for NY Times operating WQXR.

I was thinking that about WKAT.

I think Salem's intent is to spread the GOP Gospel -- profitable or not.

73s from 954<P ID="signature">______________
The New News/Talk WKAT ... Unforgettable WJNA</P>
 
> > David, be careful when you use the word "all." I know of
> > some religous commercial stations that exist to preach the
>
> > gospel to the world. WQXR was mentioned and there may be
> > other motives besides profit for NY Times operating WQXR.
>
> I think that the usage of the term "commercial staitons"
> limits my statement to those that intend to make a profit.
> Even WQXR, part of the publicly held New York Times, would
> not last long did nit not makes some money.
>

Well, it adds an extra income of $15 million to the NY Times (of course many expenses) but isn't too shabby.
 
>
> Well, it adds an extra income of $15 million to the NY Times
> (of course many expenses) but isn't too shabby.
>

Good image, horrible as a use of capital. Value: $400 million. Cash flow: probably less than $5 million. That comes out to less than 2% on the asset value. You could get more in a savings account, and that is not saying much.
 
> >
> > Ad agencies generally do not influence demos.
> >
>
> Then who does? Just wondering.
>

Depending on the company, it is the management, product design group or the marketing department of the advertiser. They go to the agency and say who they want to reach. Geneerally, the agency can never change that and would not want to piss off the client by trying to redesign their product.
 
> HD has the potential to save
> > tradional radio from ourselves.
> >
>
>
> I'm not too sure I'd wholeheartedly agree with you on that
> statement. I am a firm believer that good programming and
> aggressive marketing can turn a station around. The sad
> part is that too many station owners are not interested in
> making a good radio station. For any owners reading this
> (unsolicited opinion coming) if you create a good station
> and tell folks, listeners (with Arbitron diaries) will come.
>

"owners not interested in making a good radio station"....that's a ridiculous statement. Owners are interested in creating the best radio stations they can considering the constraints of their economics. In other words, no owner wants a loser. But, everything is a trade off. You can't spend 2 or 3 million in promotions and create cash flow sufficient to pay your note and investors. Oh, and by the way, I am an owner and I do listen, and read with amusement some of the uninformed comments here on this board.
 
>
> "owners not interested in making a good radio
> station"....that's a ridiculous statement. Owners are
> interested in creating the best radio stations they can
> considering the constraints of their economics. In other
> words, no owner wants a loser. But, everything is a trade
> off. You can't spend 2 or 3 million in promotions and
> create cash flow sufficient to pay your note and investors.
> Oh, and by the way, I am an owner and I do listen, and read
> with amusement some of the uninformed comments here on this
> board.
>

To the credit of posters who are not in the business, I think most folks come here to see what really goes on, and it takes a while to match perception with reality. Nearly every exchange I have had where an interested listener or wannabe has presented something that is not correct or properly focused has resulted in an appreciation for getting information.

I remember when I was an outsider at (least vaguely) and I had some really dumb misconceptions. Fortunately, I was allowed to hang around a station and I realized that most of what I thought about radio was wrong. Today, boards are the same as hanging out at a station. Except they don't bring you coffee.
 
> >
> > "owners not interested in making a good radio
> > station"....that's a ridiculous statement. Owners are
> > interested in creating the best radio stations they can
> > considering the constraints of their economics. In other
> > words, no owner wants a loser. But, everything is a trade
>
> > off. You can't spend 2 or 3 million in promotions and
> > create cash flow sufficient to pay your note and
> investors.
> > Oh, and by the way, I am an owner and I do listen, and
> read
> > with amusement some of the uninformed comments here on
> this
> > board.
> >
>
> To the credit of posters who are not in the business, I
> think most folks come here to see what really goes on, and
> it takes a while to match perception with reality. Nearly
> every exchange I have had where an interested listener or
> wannabe has presented something that is not correct or
> properly focused has resulted in an appreciation for getting
> information.
>
> I remember when I was an outsider at (least vaguely) and I
> had some really dumb misconceptions. Fortunately, I was
> allowed to hang around a station and I realized that most of
> what I thought about radio was wrong. Today, boards are the
> same as hanging out at a station. Except they don't bring
> you coffee.
>

Good point David,

We could actually use more "hangers on" around the station. I remember I would have done anything I could to get in the door. Where are all those kids these days? Guess they aren't into radio the way we were. Just spent over a month looking for a board operator and talk producer for my AM station. 20 years ago there would have been 30 kids asking for that job. Now....maybe 2. So, we hired from within (promotion assistant). Of course, we are to blame here. No more overnight or weekend jocks. Where's the AAA team? How can you train a midday jock if you don't have them on overnight to practice. Now it's all voicetracking....but that saves us 100K per year and that goes towards billboards, promotions, new equipment and other expenses. But...we need to develop talent. Hey, where's those Broadcast School graduates anyway? Is it true that the UofM no longer has any radio courses in their Communications Department. That's where I started and I now own 4 stations. It's a shame.
 
> Is it true that the UofM
> no longer has any radio courses in their Communications
> Department. That's where I started and I now own 4
> stations. It's a shame.
>
The only course that is truly radio oriented is an audio production class (it was great fun though)...there was a generic "programming" class that I also took as part of my broadcasting minor, but it was for all intents and purposes TV-based.

Personally, I chose to only minor in broadcasting because I really do love radio, but I also realize that it has almost no potential to support (financially) the kind of lifestyle I want to live. However, were a part-time or weekend opportunity to get behind the mic (or even the board) arise, you can bet your sweet bippy I'd be all over it.
 
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