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FCC inquiry - HD on Sattelite Radios

TheBigA said:
First of all, the FCC doesn't regulate iPods. So they can't make such a mandate. If they could, they'd mandate iPods to carry AM/FM.

But why satellite? Beacuse, as you say, they sought to break the rules. That opened the door. Had they not made that request of the FCC, I doubt very much that the FCC would have ever made such a suggestion.

Also, just because the FCC is seeking comments doesn't necessarily mean they've made up their mind. This is part of the new "glasnost" at the Commission where they look for input on a lot of things, perhaps to evade criticism from Congress.

They also have a rule against one company owning both DARS licenses, but the Feds seemed fit to ignore that in approving this merger thing. But let me restate my idea: why don't they madate that HD radios include an mp3 player? Or a satellite radio?

Again, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I was against the merger and I'm against forcing them to include such proprietary tech in any device. IF they do it, then it should at least cut both ways. Anyway - focing the use of HD radio would spell the end of portable sat devices and "pocket mobile" units like my Roady XT. It was $40 at Wal-Mart - I've yet to see an HD radio come anywhere close to that price point, or be as light or cool running as this thing.
 
Zach said:
But let me restate my idea: why don't they madate that HD radios include an mp3 player? Or a satellite radio?

I would think the RIAA would have something to say about putting an mp3 player in a radio. They sued XM and Sirius for such a device. If they could make an HD radio that would allow free music downloads (such a device exists in England) they would probably have a hit. But the RIAA won't allow that, even though the recording industry in other countries do.

The satellite radio companies restrict what appears on their radios. They would prevent a manufacturer making an HD radio that could receive satellite channels. I would think HD would love to incorporate loads of other products into their radios if they were allowed. Look how excited they got when they made a deal with Apple for tagging. How about an HD Radio & microwave?

But once again, this is not about HD radio, but satellite radio. The only reason the FCC is considering HD and not something else is the question came up. This is not about geese and gander. This is specifically about placing a new requirement on satellite to make up for the one about mergers they overlooked.

Zach said:
They also have a rule against one company owning both DARS licenses, but the Feds seemed fit to ignore that in approving this merger thing.

That was not a Justice Department issue. Just because they ignored it doesn't mean it doesn't matter. They left that issue to the FCC since it was an FCC rule. And the FCC is still trying to resolve it.
 
TheBigA said:
I would think the RIAA would have something to say about putting an mp3 player in a radio. They sued XM and Sirius for such a device. If they could make an HD radio that would allow free music downloads (such a device exists in England) they would probably have a hit. But the RIAA won't allow that, even though the recording industry in other countries do.

And those radios are still on the market since the sat companies caved in and paid the RIAA the money they demanded.

TheBigA said:
That was not a Justice Department issue. Just because they ignored it doesn't mean it doesn't matter. They left that issue to the FCC since it was an FCC rule. And the FCC is still trying to resolve it.

...and the FCC is the one inquiring about mandating HD in satellite radios, not the Justice Department.
 
Savage said:
Bob Strew-Bull, David Rehr-End

Jeez, how OLD are you? 6?

Do you also call people "poopyhead" and yell "Nanny-nanny boo-boo"?
 
DStroyer said:
Savage said:
Bob Strew-Bull, David Rehr-End

Jeez, how OLD are you? 6?

Do you also call people "poopyhead" and yell "Nanny-nanny boo-boo"?

You may or may not know, Mr. Savage's station in Rochester is being interfered with by WBZ.

As the FCC has approved this interference as legal, we haven't seen any steps taken to correct this tresspass.

Mr.s Struble and Rehr do not understand tresspass, something you can usually get a 6-year old to understand.

Perhaps that is the reason they deserve ridicule from a 6 yr old perspective.
If I were Mr Savage, I'd be setting up jammer transmitters in Boston. Fair is fair. Heck, I'd help him.
Bob, I have a 500 watt Universal Radio Xmtr from aout 1949 that we can get on 1030 with only a little work.

Maybe.... how bout an upper-sideband suppression filter, then you add a sine wave that wobbles between 11,000 and 12,000 hz?
Listeners in Boston would hear a 1 to 2 khz whistle. If you did it right, it would sound like police sirens.

Any and all ridicule is well-deserved for the AM version of iboc, monstrous and destructive in every aspect.
 
DStroyer said:
Savage said:
Bob Strew-Bull, David Rehr-End

Jeez, how OLD are you? 6?

Do you also call people "poopyhead" and yell "Nanny-nanny boo-boo"?

I cannot think of any better names to call these two pinheads who are trying to ruin radio and without a clue perhaps, which would make it worse, although I think callous disregard would describe what they are doing better.. I especially like Strew-Bull and have used it many times. It fits his style to a T.
 
It's amazing how nasty some people get when you speak out about protecting our basic freedoms from intrusive, clueless, incompetent and corrupt Big Government. Keeping our freedoms is a concept everyone should embrace. Societies where citizens largely went along with Big Government rather than standing up for individual liberty include the not-so-dearly-departed Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. And we all know what happened to THOSE loyal citizens.

This isn't about personalities or style or rhetoric. It's about a defective, cobbled technical standard forcibly imposed - amid endless oceans of lies - by a corrupt cabal of big broadcasters and a radio-ignorant tech firm which could care less about the industry we all grew up with and love.

HD is fascist. Not to mention elitist. And utterly without real, provable technical merit. That's why it's flopping so badly, and is constantly being technically "revised" in desperate efforts to get it to some kind of irreversible critical mass in terms of implementation. So for those who decide to go along with the Alliance, have at it. That's the way to get yourself shoved up against a wall and pranged by the righteous someday when there is an accounting. Truth has a way of coming out, of being proven by history, and the personal consequences are sometimes not pretty to watch.
 
Savage said:
It's amazing how nasty some people get when you speak out about protecting our basic freedoms from intrusive, clueless, incompetent and corrupt Big Government. Keeping our freedoms is a concept everyone should embrace.

I agree. What gives you the right to control a certain part of the public airwaves in your town? They are as much my airwaves as yours. I should be able to broadcast on your frequencies when I want to speak out on issues of concern to me. But big corrupt incompetent government has seen fit to give you a license. Perhaps that's where the mistake was made. Maybe the airwaves should be unlicensed, and all of us should be allowed to use those airwaves as we see fit. Like the internet. How do you feel about THAT?

To be consistent, if government is corrupt, clueless, and wrong to approve HD, why is not that very same government corrupt, clueless, and wrong to give you a license?

Savage said:
It's about a defective, cobbled technical standard forcibly imposed - amid endless oceans of lies - by a corrupt cabal of big broadcasters and a radio-ignorant tech firm which could care less about the industry we all grew up with and love.

You keep saying something was "forcibly imposed" on someone, and there is no evidence to support that. They obviously haven't forced YOU to use it on your station, have they? You can say they tried to twist your arm, but at the end of the day, no one held a gun to your head.

Nothing was forcibly imposed. Companies voluntarily chose to do something.And in some cases, they were given a share in the profits. That's the American way. They all used their free will to unite. If you want to say they're imbiciles, that's your right too. But to claim they did it against their will isn't true.

Savage said:
HD is fascist. Not to mention elitist. And utterly without real, provable technical merit. That's why it's flopping so badly.

I can give you a list of a lot of great inventions that were great technical achievements that also flopped, so I don't think you can draw such a conclusion from HD Radio. You don't like it, and you are being personally and financially hurt by it. So even if it WAS a great technical achievement, and even if they could prove it works, it wouldn't change your view, and it wouldn't affect your particular situation.

Savage said:
Truth has a way of coming out, of being proven by history, and the personal consequences are sometimes not pretty to watch.

The truth is that some of the things you've said in this post are NOT true. And they have been proven by history. So what does that say?
 
Let me add to my post that I come in contact with a lot of people who feel, very vocally I might add, that radio owners should not be allowed to make money using the public's airwaves. They should be restricted to use those airwaves for public service purposes only, and not for entertainment or profit. Or a portion of their revenues should be given back to the government as a spectrum fee. A lot of these people testified in front of the FCC during the past two years. I was present at one of those hearings and heard this opinion expressed in very loud & clear ways. They resent the fact that a certain group of people have access to the airwaves, and are allowed to profit on them. They want to know why the public is not compensated for that use of a public resource.

So if we are about to open pandora's box and discuss the right of one licensee to trespass on the signal of another, you need to put in in the context that the FCC has been under fire for several years about the right of ANY licensee to operate a profit-making business using the public airwaves. When you put it in that context, perhaps it becomes more understandable why the FCC simply isn't interested in getting involved.
 
Well, I had promised to ignore The Big Adolescent previously, but the recent posts have pegged "the ignorant meter" so I can't resist. Thanks, BigA, for finally revealing your agenda here for everyone. You simply hate US commercial radio, which explains your frequent nihilist rants here. Which are astonishingly uninformed, I must add.

Where on God's green earth did you ever get the idea "the public is not compensated for use" of the radio spectrum? Have you never heard of spectrum auctions and annual spectrum use fees paid by every single freakin' radio station in the US? Have you never heard of license application fees for every official function from callsign changes to CP apps and mods to STA applications to transfers of license control and on and on? It's BILLIONS of dollars paid into the US Treasury annually directly related to use of the public airwaves, specifically, the RADIO spectrum.

And radio "should not be used for entertainment?" In The BigA's future world of radio, his legislative ban on "entertainment on the radio" will surely make for a must-hear product I'm sure. (Although big group radio these days is certainly making a valiant early attempt.) Presumably, though, The BigA wants to wipe out those billions in federal revenues from radio, outlaw "entertainment" and proscribe making any productive use, revenue-wise, of radio broadcasting. So: say goodbye, in advance, to future versions of Todd Storz, Orson Welles, Garrison Keillor, Gordon McLendon, Dick Clark, Bill Drake, Casey Kasem, and the scores of legendary entertainers (can't have THAT!) who have been enjoyed by untold millions over decades of US commercial radio.

And presumably it should all be replaced by......what, Radio Sofia? The Beeb? A big TIS or all-HD version of NOAA weather radio?

While The BigA would proscribe "entertainment on the radio" thankfully he doesn't fail to supply big laughs here, so we won't have to go completely mirthless. "A lot of people have testified at the FCC" that we need to end all US commercial broadcast radio as we know it? Really? Somehow that little development eluded the editors of RW, Broadcasting & Cable, RBR and many blogsites....can you supply us with the Notice Of Proposed Rulemaking or Notice Of Inquiry dates and docket numbers of these little soirees?

Or when you type "a lot of people" - vocal ones, to be sure - are you referring to a handful of infantile, disingenuous nitwits who pontificate anonymously on blogsites about fantasy FCC hearings to end commercial radio?

BTW: on another thread on this board, you brayed to the effect that "the FCC will not get involved" when it comes to cases of IBOC-AM adjacent channel interference. Actually, that - like many of your posts - is just made-up crap. In Philadelphia a major AM signal was recently receiving serious interference from a SECOND-adjacent station in Harrisburg. A complaint was filed and the two parties were told to either work it out between them, or the Commission would order the interferor to reduce digital power. A reduction was made which satisfied the Philly station. And another potential PR disaster for HD was averted (the interferor is a member of the Alliance, so they decided to live with half a loaf, which is about as good as it gets with HD Radio.)
 
Savage said:
You simply hate US commercial radio, which explains your frequent nihilist rants here.

Actually I don't. I was simply posing a counterpoint to YOUR rant.

Savage said:
Where on God's green earth did you ever get the idea "the public is not compensated for use" of the radio spectrum? Have you never heard of spectrum auctions and annual spectrum use fees paid by every single freakin' radio station in the US?

OK...you're an owner. How much of your revenue goes into a spectrum fee? The Congrssional budget office says the spectrum fee brings in under $50 million a year. That's covering a $20 billion industry! There have been numerous proposals in Congress to increase the spectrum fee during the past ten years and none have passed. Those who object to the commercial use of the public airwaves (and I'm NOT one of them) feel the fee is way too low. The criticism, and you've no doubt heard it, is a radio station is a license to print money. Those with an agenda who can't own one object to commercial radio on that basis.

Savage said:
It's BILLIONS of dollars paid into the US Treasury annually directly related to use of the public airwaves, specifically, the RADIO spectrum.

I understand all that, but the commercial radio industry is NOT paying billions for the use of the spectrum. As I said, the figure is much lower than that. The issue here is commercial terrestrial radio.

Savage said:
And radio "should not be used for entertainment?" In The BigA's future world of radio, his legislative ban on "entertainment on the radio" will surely make for a must-hear product I'm sure.

Once again, this is not MY opinion, but that of numerous public interest groups who speak at these local FCC hearings that were held around the country. These hearings were held during the last two years in Seattle, Washington DC, Nashville, Portland Maine, and Chicago (among others). You can read transcripts of these hearings at fcc.gov. You can read about the Chicago hearing at StopBigMedia.com. You call them "nitwits?" Ironically, their URL is similar to StopIBOC.com.

I haven't proposed a ban on entertainment, but these groups are coming up with all kinds of new laws, and there are at least two Commissioners who attend these groups' conventions, and say they agree. These particular two Commissioners may find themselves in the majority in four months.
So I'd be a little concerned about what they think.

Savage said:
BTW: on another thread on this board, you brayed to the effect that "the FCC will not get involved" when it comes to cases of IBOC-AM adjacent channel interference. Actually, that - like many of your posts - is just made-up crap.

OK...so you came up with one example. Out of how many cases where interference has been claimed? To read your posts and others here, this interference is widespread. If so, why have there only been a couple of complaints to the agency charged with regulation of the airwaves?
 
TheBigA queried:

Out of how many cases where interference has been claimed? To read your posts and others here, this interference is widespread. If so, why have there only been a couple of complaints to the agency charged with regulation of the airwaves?

Ok. I've kept my mouth shut for awhile now, but at this point, I think we need to ignore this guy. Bob, don't get sucked in by him. He is trying to trip you up, and although you're too smart to let it happen, he argues for the sake of creating trouble and his arguments are irrelevant and ridiculous.

Quite honestly, the FCC is NOT doing its job anymore, pure and simple. This is a federal agency that was created to protect users of the electromagnetic spectrum from interfering with each other. Clearly, it is no longer concerned with this aspect of its most basic function. In fact, the number of engineers has decreased and the number of bureaucrats has increased steadily at the FCC over the past 30 years. It is not as if any of the problems that are being experienced by the AM HD system weren't scientifically and mathematically predictable. They were. Everyone was warned. The FCC consciously chose to ignore this data and continues to ignore valid engineering evidence of interference in defense of a cheesy system that smacks of mediocrity.

Hopefully, one day the FCC will hire some good engineering people again and stop selling itself to the highest bidder. Remember folks: Ibiquity's chairman is under the gun to get that public offering going and he will do anything and everything possible to make sure that it happens, no matter who gets hurt along the way.
 
Wide ranging comments, Cal, and valid ones. Not to worry, i'm neither sucked in by Big nor others of his ilk (such as DStroyer, who is obviously just another dweeb blogging from his mom's basement - clicking on his bio link reveals his professional radio credentials as "HD Radio owner," a perspective from which he not only dreamily mulls buying some existing FM stations and unleashing wonderful new HD-2 and HD-3 formats, but also ventures to offer some of his contributors airshifts. In other words, the functional equivalent of every overgrown-teener armchair radio quarterback who has never had to actually operate a real radio station, pay taxes and meet payroll, etc.)

We all need to remember that the function of these blogsites is to give every p**s-ant an ant-hill to p**s from, and many of them do far more damage to themselves with every keystroke than we real-world broadcasters ever could. So like you, I'm all for letting them have at it. Keep the idiocy coming, guys!

As far as the FCC goes: it's lame-duck season, which will manifest itself in NO meaningful forward action on HD including the vaunted digital power increase. The recent NPR interference study has injected a most sobering note into the controversy. It's hard to see how the industry is going to sign on to the prospect of losing about a third of in-car analog listening over HD. I don't think even the most typical big-cluster manager is THAT stupid. Particularly when the entire body of engineering opinion outside the most rabid circle of HD-boosters predicts that even 10db digital won't make that much difference in practical real-world digital coverage.

Irrespective of which new administration takes over, I predict a big shakeup at the FCC after November. And when the digital-power increase proposal is finessed and ultimately fails to produce any meaningful improvement in HD's fortunes, look for the radio industry to aim for a new horizon - one embracing internet streaming. The political changes at the Commission will administer HD's coup de grace. I hope it happens quickly.
 
Cal Stymes said:
Quite honestly, the FCC is NOT doing its job anymore, pure and simple. This is a federal agency that was created to protect users of the electromagnetic spectrum from interfering with each other.

I agree with that. But the role of the FCC changed in the early 80s. Lots of other things were dropped on its "to do" list, and its budget was cut. Just because an angecy was created to do one job doesn't mean it will continue to do that same job 80 years later.

I agree that Savage is being unfairly hurt. As I've said, and you can believe what you want to believe, I'm not interested in promoting HD Radio. Feel free to point out mistakes in my posts. But don't tell me I don't have a right to my opinion or that my opinions are irrelevent or ridiculous just because you disagree with them.

Cal Stymes said:
Hopefully, one day the FCC will hire some good engineering people again and stop selling itself to the highest bidder. Remember folks: Ibiquity's chairman is under the gun to get that public offering going and he will do anything and everything possible to make sure that it happens, no matter who gets hurt along the way.

Have you looked at the stock market lately? Only a fool would make a public offering in the middle of a depression. Who is going to represent him? Lehman Brothers? Ha! Forget it.

Look, the only thing the FCC is selling to the highest bidder is spectrum space. Not HD radio. I have no reason to believe that approval was bought & paid for. Copps and Adelstein wouldn't allow it. But I agree that almost all engineering work has been outsourced to private companies. That's how Washington works and has worked since Reagan.

By the way, I believe the radio industry has already begun to abandon HD Radio. THat's what the Ferrero announcement was all about.
 
Savage said:
Particularly when the entire body of engineering opinion outside the most rabid circle of HD-boosters predicts that even 10db digital won't make that much difference in practical real-world digital coverage.

It seems like the 10db increase proposal is a kind of last ditch attempt to save HD Radio technologically. The only other thing the Alliance can do is start pushing for a sunset of analog broadcasting.

The "inconvenient truth" of the NPR study, which undoubtedly the FCC will factor in to it's decision, could very well be a sticking point in implementing this power increase.

C5
 
"The only other thing the Alliance can do is start pushing for a sunset of analog broadcasting".

I would not be in favor of that! However, I would support a sunset for Hybrid Digital broadcasting.

Let those who want to continue broadcasting in digital do so in digital mode only, so they only occupy their own channel. Not only would that eliminate the horrendous interference problem, but then digital transmission might actually work reasonably well. At the same time, let those who want to continue broadcasting in analog do so. There is no incentive for most low power, small market stations to go digital.

In other words, you get to operate in digital or analog, but not both. You have to keep your stuff in your own lane.

Ideally, future software defined radios would allow for multiple digital standards, so that other digital transmission standards could be used at the discretion of the radio station.
 
audioguy said:
"The only other thing the Alliance can do is start pushing for a sunset of analog broadcasting".

I would not be in favor of that! However, I would support a sunset for Hybrid Digital broadcasting.

Nor would I. And, realistically, I doubt the FCC would accept that idea, at least not for a decade or so. But I can see, in desperation, the Alliance putting it forward.

But your idea of an either/or solution would be a good one.

C5
 
Yes, audioguy and Carmine5, excellent concepts. They could then re-name themselves The "D" Alliance.

Can't you just hear the on-air promos? "Time to upgrade.....to D !"

(Or maybe "D-minus.")
 
We could have a contest to see who can come up with the best promos for "D"--

"Traffic just sounds better in D!"
"Digital radio just makes you feel so defined..."
"Hear the debate in D-- now you'll know where they really stand!"
Get the weather in D and know for sure whether it's raining without looking out the window!"

Oh, one more: "Our station sounds great in D - wherever you can hear us!

OK, those are weak. I admit I can't think of any good ones! Maybe the Alliance ad agency can.
 
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