A
AQH
Guest
bobmathers said:
Just out of curiosity, what else would you do to counter KBSG right now?
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FEBRUARY 2011 PPMS REVIEW
- Thread starter discjockeyjohn64
- Start date
Just out of curiosity, what else would you do to counter KBSG right now?
B
bobmathers
Guest
That's a good question and a fair question, AQH. I could address my answer to AM 570 but choose not to do so here in the forum. Only because Fisher's PD's have their own ideas for KVI and certainly don't need me to play armchair PD.
What I will say is for any AM in general in 2011 who wants to compete by playing music, there has to be a significant part of the overall strategy formed from the 'gut' rather than the usual heavy reliance on 'research'. I know I'll get an argument from others on here who swear by the numbers. That's cool. Like the Ink Spots said back in the day, 'To Each His Own'.
By 'gut', I mean you have to put yourself in the place of the prototype listener in your demo. What do they like and what are they not getting from your competition? Then, you go out and do it.
Some may think me a bit addled (and it won't be the first time I've been described as such) but there's never been a better time for an AM station to succeed in the last 30 years than now.
Think about it. FM surpassed AM as a music choice for radio listeners in 1978. Many AM's began to panic and pull the plug on music formats because the trends ordained it. Made sense from an early 80's perspective. However, today's FM offers little growth in the way of community connections, local relates, or music variety. Many win by default, or cluster dominance, or signal strength. People are primed for something relatable and close to home on the radio, even if it is on AM.
A musically programmed AM station firing on all cylinders with a halfway decent signal, 'live and local' jocks, relevant promotions, community marketing and public service can make money.
Especially with oldies.
What I will say is for any AM in general in 2011 who wants to compete by playing music, there has to be a significant part of the overall strategy formed from the 'gut' rather than the usual heavy reliance on 'research'. I know I'll get an argument from others on here who swear by the numbers. That's cool. Like the Ink Spots said back in the day, 'To Each His Own'.
By 'gut', I mean you have to put yourself in the place of the prototype listener in your demo. What do they like and what are they not getting from your competition? Then, you go out and do it.
Some may think me a bit addled (and it won't be the first time I've been described as such) but there's never been a better time for an AM station to succeed in the last 30 years than now.
Think about it. FM surpassed AM as a music choice for radio listeners in 1978. Many AM's began to panic and pull the plug on music formats because the trends ordained it. Made sense from an early 80's perspective. However, today's FM offers little growth in the way of community connections, local relates, or music variety. Many win by default, or cluster dominance, or signal strength. People are primed for something relatable and close to home on the radio, even if it is on AM.
A musically programmed AM station firing on all cylinders with a halfway decent signal, 'live and local' jocks, relevant promotions, community marketing and public service can make money.
Especially with oldies.
Agree with Bob. AM band is full of talk. KVI had been a leader with a cume near 250K,like KTTH. Along came PPM and KVI was hovering under 90K 25-54 and 120K overall. KTTH was ahead but not by much. Neither station was even top 25. Add in KPTK, KKOL, KGNW, KRKO, Two sports stations and the AM dial was covered with low ranking spoken word. KOMO is the clear winner here on the AM band. KVI cume as Oldies hit 100K prior to KJR launching into Oldies. Now KJR seems to be shifting back to Classic hits. (smart by the way with Bob Rivers coming on)
I agree that music is viable on the AM as an alternative to being one of ten or twelve spoken word stations. But it needs variety and fun. KIXI has a core audience and so will KVI if it broadens its playlist and stays 50's, 60's and early 70's while KJR goes back to Journey, Bob Segar and Doobies, with an occasional Oldies hit. Add Bob Rivers with all talk in mornings starting Friday and KJR will be a powerhouse Classic Hits/Classic Rock station. Seems KVI may have a place yet. Might want to give the KVI format some time. It may be a wise move yet.
I agree that music is viable on the AM as an alternative to being one of ten or twelve spoken word stations. But it needs variety and fun. KIXI has a core audience and so will KVI if it broadens its playlist and stays 50's, 60's and early 70's while KJR goes back to Journey, Bob Segar and Doobies, with an occasional Oldies hit. Add Bob Rivers with all talk in mornings starting Friday and KJR will be a powerhouse Classic Hits/Classic Rock station. Seems KVI may have a place yet. Might want to give the KVI format some time. It may be a wise move yet.
A
AQH
Guest
bobmathers said:
Okay.
But you know KBSG has been off the air for almost three years now, right?
bob, you nailed it. a lot of this same programming logic was mentioned by several of us, when KVI announced the suprising format change. it would take a lot of thinking outside the stale radio box, to make KVI AM music and programming work. looking at KVI ratings, now might be the time for someone there to grow a pair, and think outside that standard protocol programming box. after all, how much lower can you go. oh so, here are a few "outside the box" ideas to put KVI on the map, and gain some fans along the way.
be more active through air personality adlib chatter tween songs(think bob rivers and the way he patters).
talk about the music!!!!!!! ie: "this song from chicago went #1 on this date in 1973, what were you doing then?"
if you get a good interesting call and character, put it on the air, and talk. talk about seattle circa 1968...whatever...
also, think up some good promos/contests to create a buzz. name that forgotten song, name that forgotten one hit wonder singer. etc....
Americans are infatuated with reality contests, like "dancing with the stars". why not create a many month long buzz with an on air star search contest, by awarding someone money and an airshift. put a couple contestants behind the mike for a half hour or so every day during drive time, and let people vote via phone, and computer devices. can you imagine the potential train wreck here? who wouldnt tune in? its time to take off the suit and tie and put the fun back in AM.
be more active through air personality adlib chatter tween songs(think bob rivers and the way he patters).
talk about the music!!!!!!! ie: "this song from chicago went #1 on this date in 1973, what were you doing then?"
if you get a good interesting call and character, put it on the air, and talk. talk about seattle circa 1968...whatever...
also, think up some good promos/contests to create a buzz. name that forgotten song, name that forgotten one hit wonder singer. etc....
Americans are infatuated with reality contests, like "dancing with the stars". why not create a many month long buzz with an on air star search contest, by awarding someone money and an airshift. put a couple contestants behind the mike for a half hour or so every day during drive time, and let people vote via phone, and computer devices. can you imagine the potential train wreck here? who wouldnt tune in? its time to take off the suit and tie and put the fun back in AM.
Imput I've been getting from friends and my own listening is the playlist
is far to tight (burned me out long ago), news is too long, 60sec traffic, top news, and wx is all that's needed. Sometimes the traffic goes for 90 sec or more alone. One, friend who used to listen doesn't like the news at all, he'll go to KOMO for that.
Weekends, the money maker as has been written here kills the 24/7 music most listeners expect.
More audience phones would liven up the station more, but they might be hard to come by.
Personallities are great, but Guru's right, music on AM is DOA. KVI needs at least a rim shot FM or FM translators.
Maybe Bill has one for sale?
is far to tight (burned me out long ago), news is too long, 60sec traffic, top news, and wx is all that's needed. Sometimes the traffic goes for 90 sec or more alone. One, friend who used to listen doesn't like the news at all, he'll go to KOMO for that.
Weekends, the money maker as has been written here kills the 24/7 music most listeners expect.
More audience phones would liven up the station more, but they might be hard to come by.
Personallities are great, but Guru's right, music on AM is DOA. KVI needs at least a rim shot FM or FM translators.
Maybe Bill has one for sale?
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bobmathers
Guest
AQH says..."Okay. But you know KBSG has been off the air for almost three years now, right?"
Gee, Wally....why is Eddie 'AQH' Haskell giving me the business? Didn't he know I was really referring to the mighty 97-Q, KNBQ?
Gee, Wally....why is Eddie 'AQH' Haskell giving me the business? Didn't he know I was really referring to the mighty 97-Q, KNBQ?
Sometimes when I read this board I feel like I've stumbled into some bizarro alternate universe.
There's a serious debate going on here about Fisher being strategically smart for going oldies on KVI???!?
Has anyone looked at the ratings? Almost no one is listening; and I'd bet there is no upside potential.
My guess is Fisher is all about cutting expenses when it comes to radio. That's why there's no program director for KVI or KOMO. That's why the KOMO news staff has been drastically reduced and most of the reporting is TV audio. And I'm pretty sure that's why they dumped talk on KVI.
It's all about the dollars being spent and very little thought to the strategic planning.
There's a serious debate going on here about Fisher being strategically smart for going oldies on KVI???!?
Has anyone looked at the ratings? Almost no one is listening; and I'd bet there is no upside potential.
My guess is Fisher is all about cutting expenses when it comes to radio. That's why there's no program director for KVI or KOMO. That's why the KOMO news staff has been drastically reduced and most of the reporting is TV audio. And I'm pretty sure that's why they dumped talk on KVI.
It's all about the dollars being spent and very little thought to the strategic planning.
equalinercard said:
Strangely enough, I couldn't agree more on all fronts, including the alternate universe comment.
As much as the romantics who grew up with music on AM radio would like to believe, music on AM is a complete non-starter. Cutting local talk on any station is a way to cut expense, that's it. Oldies is a placeholder for the paid programming on weekends.
Maybe. Still think there may be a place for music on AM. No FM will play 50's and 60's music and even AC stations are getting rid of 70's pop. AM can fill the void. Just like Music of Your Life filled a void a decade ago. 650 AM in Vancouver BC to the North does okay in ratings as I recall. Someone may know better.
why not get rid of the placeholder all together then? would it not be cool to listen to paid programming, and infomercials during the week. who doesnt need a new shitzu knife set or vegimatic machine? also, fisher could make that good profit like they do on the weekends.TVradioguru said:
kidding aside...i do like that KVI auto show on sat morn when i'm just gettin off the road.
Regardless of the outcome of these things, we're still dealing with:
A. A ridiculously small sample size (1,300 people with PPMs? In a market with some 3,000,000+ people POTENTIALLY listening at any given time? That's not a sample, that's a Death Panel.)
B. 1,300 people is a ridiculously small sample, but I think when they started this, it was probably even SMALLER than that. I imagine the more people Aribtron has on board, the more accurate the results. But they still have a VERY long way to go before they get a picture semi-realistic enough to be remotely considered ACCURATE.
C. Yes, AM radio is usually the option of VERY LAST resort when it comes to entertainment in 2011 amongst the THOUSANDS out there, including this particular board. But I think if you're doing something NO ONE ELSE is doing on FM, it does have SOME, albeit VERY marginal, chance.
AM's fidelity (or lack thereof from both indifferent radio manufacturers and engineers.), rising electrical interference through the years and a serious downward spiral in AM radio's overall public image as the "blabber band" isn't much help. AM's current audience has also aged (terribly.) With so much going against it at this point, I see no point in even trying to start another news/talker or Bhutanese format on it.
But that's when you really need to smash a few old molds. I believe AM's last chance is to host non-mainstream music formats. Indie/Underground, Bluegrass, Reggae, Blues 24/7 (Oh what I'd give to hear "KIRO Bluesradio 710"), all local rock (don't tell me that WON'T have an INSTANT audience in local music-centric Seattle.) Even Smooth Jazz (I think there was an AM Smooth Jazz station with no FM competition in Cincinnati or somewhere in Ohio that lasted a few years.) But regardless, you have to admit, even scrappy little KJET had some good promotion. Or at least enough of it to make it more memorable in almost 30 years in 2011 than even KRQI was in 2007.
So I figure regardless of what's on and where, it's time and effort wasted without halfway decent promotion.
In the early days of KPTK, there was a voicer running that encouraged listeners to make up their own hand drawn or written "AM 1090" signs. And I actually saw quite a few of them around Seattle and NW Washington (including a few in the Vancouver, BC area!) I thought that was a splendid and better yet, FREE promotion idea. When you're the underdog, you may as well have a tiny, but super loyal audience that shows how much it loves it's station. It's the best promotion you can get.
But that also means having some great (preferably live) personalities who care about the music and are not only an audience builder, but a UNITER. That's VERY important.
While it's nice to hear the oldies on KVI again, they could also take a cue from KMCQ and beef up the format and VARIETY enough that when KMCQ is gone, their former audience can still hear those songs on KVI. As tight as Clear Channel stations are with the playlists, it's KVI's saving grace.
Hell, KVI could probably do this NOW and even buy promotion time for it on KMCQ already and it probably wouldn't bother First Broadcasting in the least. Better to have SOMETHING to show on the balance sheet for dragging KMCQ all the way up here than nothing at all.
Or we can all just resign, disregard, hold our ears and scream "LALALALA! I CANT HEAR YOU!" and/or worry about things that aren't even worth worrying about at this stage for AM radio. And don't tell me there isn't enough money for it. No corporation raking in millions annually with a skeleton staff in each city cluster is so damn broke they can't at LEAST make a civil effort at revamping their underachieving AMs.
Otherwise, just save on the power bill and return the damn licenses to the FCC......
That's all.
A. A ridiculously small sample size (1,300 people with PPMs? In a market with some 3,000,000+ people POTENTIALLY listening at any given time? That's not a sample, that's a Death Panel.)
B. 1,300 people is a ridiculously small sample, but I think when they started this, it was probably even SMALLER than that. I imagine the more people Aribtron has on board, the more accurate the results. But they still have a VERY long way to go before they get a picture semi-realistic enough to be remotely considered ACCURATE.
C. Yes, AM radio is usually the option of VERY LAST resort when it comes to entertainment in 2011 amongst the THOUSANDS out there, including this particular board. But I think if you're doing something NO ONE ELSE is doing on FM, it does have SOME, albeit VERY marginal, chance.
AM's fidelity (or lack thereof from both indifferent radio manufacturers and engineers.), rising electrical interference through the years and a serious downward spiral in AM radio's overall public image as the "blabber band" isn't much help. AM's current audience has also aged (terribly.) With so much going against it at this point, I see no point in even trying to start another news/talker or Bhutanese format on it.
But that's when you really need to smash a few old molds. I believe AM's last chance is to host non-mainstream music formats. Indie/Underground, Bluegrass, Reggae, Blues 24/7 (Oh what I'd give to hear "KIRO Bluesradio 710"), all local rock (don't tell me that WON'T have an INSTANT audience in local music-centric Seattle.) Even Smooth Jazz (I think there was an AM Smooth Jazz station with no FM competition in Cincinnati or somewhere in Ohio that lasted a few years.) But regardless, you have to admit, even scrappy little KJET had some good promotion. Or at least enough of it to make it more memorable in almost 30 years in 2011 than even KRQI was in 2007.
So I figure regardless of what's on and where, it's time and effort wasted without halfway decent promotion.
In the early days of KPTK, there was a voicer running that encouraged listeners to make up their own hand drawn or written "AM 1090" signs. And I actually saw quite a few of them around Seattle and NW Washington (including a few in the Vancouver, BC area!) I thought that was a splendid and better yet, FREE promotion idea. When you're the underdog, you may as well have a tiny, but super loyal audience that shows how much it loves it's station. It's the best promotion you can get.
But that also means having some great (preferably live) personalities who care about the music and are not only an audience builder, but a UNITER. That's VERY important.
While it's nice to hear the oldies on KVI again, they could also take a cue from KMCQ and beef up the format and VARIETY enough that when KMCQ is gone, their former audience can still hear those songs on KVI. As tight as Clear Channel stations are with the playlists, it's KVI's saving grace.
Hell, KVI could probably do this NOW and even buy promotion time for it on KMCQ already and it probably wouldn't bother First Broadcasting in the least. Better to have SOMETHING to show on the balance sheet for dragging KMCQ all the way up here than nothing at all.
Or we can all just resign, disregard, hold our ears and scream "LALALALA! I CANT HEAR YOU!" and/or worry about things that aren't even worth worrying about at this stage for AM radio. And don't tell me there isn't enough money for it. No corporation raking in millions annually with a skeleton staff in each city cluster is so damn broke they can't at LEAST make a civil effort at revamping their underachieving AMs.
Otherwise, just save on the power bill and return the damn licenses to the FCC......
That's all.
I believe David took quite a bit of time to explain PPM sample methodology a few weeks back. Apparently, yet once again, you either didn't comprehend or simply don't understand that in reality, the returned sample can be higher with PPM than with the old diary method, based on the number of returned diaries. But Bong is always never willing to let the facts stand in the way of a good rant.
Indeed, if KVI were to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars in promotion and even more annually into live talent, they may break a one share. Wait, didn't they do that with talk? Oh yes, that worked out well in the end didn't it? Factor in the interest in listening to music on AM and you'd have a real winning business model wouldn't you?
As for playing local bands or untested music, one operating a business may as well just indeed turn in the license. Stations that feature untested or unfamiliar music get crushed in PPM sampled TSL. For the real world (not the Bong world) or radio, familiar, known songs and artists win in all cases.
Indeed, if KVI were to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars in promotion and even more annually into live talent, they may break a one share. Wait, didn't they do that with talk? Oh yes, that worked out well in the end didn't it? Factor in the interest in listening to music on AM and you'd have a real winning business model wouldn't you?
As for playing local bands or untested music, one operating a business may as well just indeed turn in the license. Stations that feature untested or unfamiliar music get crushed in PPM sampled TSL. For the real world (not the Bong world) or radio, familiar, known songs and artists win in all cases.
TVradioguru said:
Yes these corporations are not in the entertainment business they are in the advertising business and they are only going to tinker with their formula in tiny bits as they don't want to rock the boat.... If you want to hear a new song or new artist tune into the Interwebs....
It's all about making money and when people tune in to hear Back In Black or Spoonman for the 6 millionth time everyone gets paid...
It's a business model radio & advertisers have lived with quite well for ages... Of course the record labels had a pretty good thing going too then along came iTunes and where is that business model now for the labels???
Until something changes it will be business as usual...
The business model on the AM is profit and unique market position. KTTH programming is expensive. Rush is not cheap, nor is Glenn Beck or Hannity. KIXI programming is virtually free, KVI uses KOMO news talent so is virtually free. KTTH bills about 3 million a year, KVI will do about 2 million and KIXI around 1.5 based on current market pacing. Want to bet KVI and KIXI actually have a better margin? The true reality for AM is find a unique market position and keep costs low.
Sounds like programmers of KVI may be reading this board. Have noticed different tunes I've not heard on the station starting to pop up.
They have great contests and personalities, but music has been the weak spot. Been hearing some cool late 50's and early 60's lately which should help the station reach close to a 1 share. That would be huge for this lower power AM.(5,000) I would think this format would be much easier sell than right wing talk, and the stigma it brought to Fisher. Yeah I know it had a hard core base, but at what cost?
They have great contests and personalities, but music has been the weak spot. Been hearing some cool late 50's and early 60's lately which should help the station reach close to a 1 share. That would be huge for this lower power AM.(5,000) I would think this format would be much easier sell than right wing talk, and the stigma it brought to Fisher. Yeah I know it had a hard core base, but at what cost?
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