FM coverage - Piestewa Peak

[KOOL Listener Lauren]

So I hiked Piestewa Peak with my fancy-schmancy Mighty Red HD and listened to HD1s, 2s, 3s, and non-HD stations on the way to the top. Scanning the dial, I noticed the radio picking up different stations, and they weren't subchannels either. At about 3/4ths of the way up, I remember catching Tucson's 94.9 Mix FM, often crystal-clear.

I know AM distances go far, but FM? I wouldn't think you could hear an FM here from Tucson.

I know hiking Piestewa Peak means gaining 1,500 ft. Is it the higher in elevation you are, the more FM signals from all around you're able to get?

 

[asugeorge1]

So I hiked Piestewa Peak with my fancy-schmancy Mighty Red HD and listened to HD1s, 2s, 3s, and non-HD stations on the way to the top. Scanning the dial, I noticed the radio picking up different stations, and they weren't subchannels either. At about 3/4ths of the way up, I remember catching Tucson's 94.9 Mix FM, often crystal-clear.

I know AM distances go far, but FM? I wouldn't think you could hear an FM here from Tucson.

I know hiking Piestewa Peak means gaining 1,500 ft. Is it the higher in elevation you are, the more FM signals from all around you're able to get?

In my travels, I have noticed that the higher you are, the better able you are to get FM Tucson stations. The reason for this is because you're off the valley floor and can get above all the tall buildings and natural obstacles (i.e., mountains) and have a clearer line of sight between your location on Piestewa Peak and the transmitters scattered around Tucson. The Tucson stations I can pick up in Phoenix at the top of high-rises or, in your case, mountain peaks, are 93.7 KRQ, 92.9 the Mountain, 94.9 MIX FM and KHYT 107.5. I can also pick-up 95.9 the Cloud, 102.1 KAHM FM and other northern Arizona stations.

When it comes to increases in elevation, FM stations from far away will come in clearer, but it really doesn't matter for AM because of the nature of the wave frequencies. I'm by no means a radio expert on this subject, but from personal experiences, this is what I have encountered. Happy hiking! ;D

 

[sirlaughsalot]

The reach of FM signals is surprising at times. About 10 years ago, I was headed for Texas from Phoenix and picked up KOOL FM briefly on I-10 near the New Mexico border.

 

[michael hagerty]

So I hiked Piestewa Peak with my fancy-schmancy Mighty Red HD and listened to HD1s, 2s, 3s, and non-HD stations on the way to the top. Scanning the dial, I noticed the radio picking up different stations, and they weren't subchannels either. At about 3/4ths of the way up, I remember catching Tucson's 94.9 Mix FM, often crystal-clear.

I know AM distances go far, but FM? I wouldn't think you could hear an FM here from Tucson.

I know hiking Piestewa Peak means gaining 1,500 ft. Is it the higher in elevation you are, the more FM signals from all around you're able to get?

Lauren:
FM (and TV) works on line of sight. If you're high enough and far enough away from the next obstacle, you "look" over it. So on Piestewa Peak, you're actually looking over South Mountain and the Catalinas (not in terms of your eye, but in terms of the radio waves). It's how TV stations get live shots using microwave shots (put the mast up all the way) and the helicopter (which really does give you line of sight). At KTVK once, we got a live shot out of Kingman by taking the chopper up high enough to "see" South Mountain...and went live at a distance of 180 miles.

I can usually get the stronger Tucson FMs driving along Lincoln between the SR 51 and about 40th Street, and on that long downgrade of 32nd Street from Lincoln to about Stanford. When my commute was later in the morning, I'd often listen to Bobby Rich on 94.9.

There is a limit to how far FM can travel without line-of-sight interference (usually about 150-200 miles for a 100,000 watt station). The first time I drove down to Phoenix from Las Vegas, I was able to pull in KOOL-FM from the I-40/US 93 junction and hold it (with some slight interference) for about 10 or 15 miles until I lost elevation.

 

[Bud_Wilkinson]

Occasionally weird things happen, too. I remember heading home from work one day years ago, making my way through Dreamy Draw, and picking up an FM station from Oklahoma City. I thought I was dreaming, so I called the station when I got home to get confirmation on the songs that I'd heard. As I said, this was years ago. Someone actually answered the phone and verified what I'd heard. Weird clouds that day must have created a worm hole effect.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

So I hiked Piestewa Peak with my fancy-schmancy Mighty Red HD and listened to HD1s, 2s, 3s, and non-HD stations on the way to the top. Scanning the dial, I noticed the radio picking up different stations, and they weren't subchannels either. At about 3/4ths of the way up, I remember catching Tucson's 94.9 Mix FM, often crystal-clear.

I know AM distances go far, but FM? I wouldn't think you could hear an FM here from Tucson.

Good Morning, Lauren. This is serendipity at it's best. If I were to go looking for a peak to conquer it would be Blood Mountain on the Appalachian Trail in North Georgia. I went to sleep last night reading a book just published by the guy who operates the outfitters store at the gap just past Blood Mountain. Now I read about your climb in Arizona.

The text book theory is that the higher frequencies like FM and TV signals and on into the microwave spectrum follow a straight line and can be received where ever there is a line-of-sight relationship between the transmitter and receiver.

As a practical matter we are learning that under certain conditions a few really weird things can happen. Several years ago my wife was working in retail here in our little Georgia village. On Friday evenings on the way home from work I would pull up behind the store near the employee entrance and wait for her. And I could routinely pick up a modestly powered Arizona station in the NCE reserved band.... if I got into one of about three parking spaces.

At one time a Fort Smith, Arkansas FM station broadcast from the top of the tallest point in the Arkansas mountains. They reported receiving reports from listeners in Brazil!

If there is an FM station in your area that you cannot receive or receive well at your home, installing an external FM receiving antenna at 30 or 50 or 80 feet above ground can make a big, big difference. Back in the 50s and 60s when there were few FM stations and music sought by audiophiles was in vogue, people bought really great receivers (just try and find one today!) and installed a serious outdoor tall antenna to satisfy their listening hunger.

Today FM tends to to simply be "just more radio" and as much as I would like to be a geek with a serious receiver and have a tall show-off antenna, I don't know what I would hope to receive that would be different than what my crummy little table radio already delivers.

Some days growing old is exciting.... but when it comes to seeking out something new on the radio dial... growing old is a real drag. I guess I am left with seeking out Jerry Del Colliano inspired podcasters.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

The Tucson stations I can pick up in Phoenix at the top of high-rises or, in your case, mountain peaks, are 93.7 KRQ, 92.9 the Mountain, 94.9 MIX FM and KHYT 107.5.

asugeo--you can also add KLPX 96.1 and KIIM 99.5 to your Tucson list. These and
the ones on you mentioned are all full-power class Cs on Tower Peak (about 2000'
HAAT just WNW of Tucson).

They're also usually pretty good "gets" in the 'Tuke or on the 202 Santan.

 

[johndavis]

Occasionally weird things happen, too. I remember heading home from work one day years ago, making my way through Dreamy Draw, and picking up an FM station from Oklahoma City. I thought I was dreaming, so I called the station when I got home to get confirmation on the songs that I'd heard. As I said, this was years ago. Someone actually answered the phone and verified what I'd heard. Weird clouds that day must have created a worm hole effect.

Yeah, I got KOMA-FM 92.5 coming in like a local in the parking lot of KKBQ (Pasadena) Houston earlier this year and held onto it for about 10 minutes before Lake Charles, LA started battling for it. I also got a few stations out of Dallas that night.

We get lots of tropo skip on the Gulf coast. There have been months where the 107.5 and 106.9 stations I work for in Houston get killed by San Antonio and Victoria respectively on a daily basis... and we probably take those cities out at the same time. Also, when I lived outside of Philly, some humid mornings our stations were wiped out by Washington DC. It's frustrating, but it's all physics.

But Oklahoma City in Phoenix is quite the e-skip catch. I remember the column you wrote about that one.

 

[landtuna]

KOOL-FM has to have one of the best signals in the Valley as I can receive it clearly traveling up/down the I-10 towards Tucson using nothing more exotic than my non-unintentional-accellerating Toyota OEM radio and windshield antenna. Likewise I can get several Tucson FM's going the other way until I reach I-10 and the 202.

Now, switching to ancient modulation for a moment, us teens in Tucson used to favor KTKT as our RnR outlet but it was a daytimer and signed off about dinner time. So, while cruising Speedway between the Johnnie's Drive-In's we'd tune to KOMA 1520 out of Oklahoma City (a clear channel 50,000 watt blowtorch in those days). It was fairly reliable if a bit static-filled. Other AM's coming in reliability and clearly included one from Boise, KOA from Denver, KSL from Salt Lake City and, I think, KOB from Albuquerque.

 

[DrAkbar]

KOOL-FM has to have one of the best signals in the Valley as I can receive it clearly traveling up/down the I-10 towards Tucson using nothing more exotic than my non-unintentional-accellerating Toyota OEM radio and windshield antenna.

Wonder why KOOL is the most mentioned FM for gettin' out to the boonies? Is it because of That Seventies Music they play? Or can we chalk this up to the previously mentioned wormhole effect? Dunno...but these fez-holes in Buckeye are dyin' to know! Perhaps the Old Gringo or Professor Fybush can 'splain it to us.

 

[fybush]

There's nothing particularly special about KOOL-FM vis a vis the other South Peak signals. Unlike some of the other major western mountaintops, the South Peak class C FMs are all about equally matched - similar power levels, similar heights. (Mount Wilson in LA, by contrast, has "class B" FMs that range in power from 600 watts all the way up to 84 kW thanks to the miracle of pre-1964 grandfathered superpower status.)

So why would 94.5 get out better than 99.9 or 102.5 or 98.7? The only thought that comes to mind is adjacent-channel interference. Does 94.9 in Tucson run IBOC? If not, that would clear the way for 94.5 to come blasting in better than other South Mountain stations with second-adjacent Tucson signals.

That's one of the big changes in FM all over the country in the last 30 or so years: before the "Docket 80-90" FM explosion in the eighties, most FM signals were limited in coverage primarily by terrain and by the curvature of the earth. It was relatively rare back then to have enough co- or adjacent-channel interference to limit a station's coverage before the signal ran out of its own accord. (The exceptions, even then, were the East Coast and parts of California.)

Today it's rare to find a station that doesn't suffer some sort of interference from another station long before terrain or the lack of line of sight would render the signal unusable. Michael Hagerty, if he's reading this, will appreciate it when I say that before NAB this year I spent some time in California's very rural Owens Valley, enjoying the amazing reach of KIBS-FM 100.7 in Bishop (and two other FMs now located up there in the 20+ years since I lived there.) Unlike most urban or suburban FMs these days, KIBS just goes and goes and goes until there's no more signal left to go. I was still hearing it way down in Death Valley, hundreds of miles to the south.

Several posts in this thread have alluded to reception beyond the line of sight. That happens on FM in two ways: tropospheric ducting, which can occur at distances from local reception to 700-800 miles, and E-skip, which generally affects stations at distances from 700-1200 miles. For a variety of meteorological reasons, tropospheric ducting is rare in the inland southwest. E-skip is somewhat more common.

 

[johndavis]

Now, switching to ancient modulation for a moment, us teens in Tucson used to favor KTKT as our RnR outlet but it was a daytimer and signed off about dinner time. So, while cruising Speedway between the Johnnie's Drive-In's we'd tune to KOMA 1520 out of Oklahoma City (a clear channel 50,000 watt blowtorch in those days). It was fairly reliable if a bit static-filled. Other AM's coming in reliability and clearly included one from Boise, KOA from Denver, KSL from Salt Lake City and, I think, KOB from Albuquerque.

You can still get 1520 out of OKC, but the tunes are long gone. KBOI is probably what you'd get out of Boise. KOB (now KKOB) is still easy to get. Ditto for KFI and XETRA. The days of a Magic Mountain spot into a Mexican legal ID into a shotgun Mighty 690 jingle are as ancient as the modulation.

 

[michael hagerty]

Michael Hagerty, if he's reading this, will appreciate it when I say that before NAB this year I spent some time in California's very rural Owens Valley, enjoying the amazing reach of KIBS-FM 100.7 in Bishop (and two other FMs now located up there in the 20+ years since I lived there.) Unlike most urban or suburban FMs these days, KIBS just goes and goes and goes until there's no more signal left to go. I was still hearing it way down in Death Valley, hundreds of miles to the south.

Scott: That's a major improvement over the signal when I helped Roy Mayhugh put 100.7 (then KIOQ) on the air in the fall of 1974. Of course, at that point the stick was on the telephone pole outside Roy's house on a side street about three blocks east of Main (the studio was in his garage).

Roy brought Jay Stevens (KGB, KFRC, KRLA, KROQ and at that time KKDJ) in as a partner in 1975 and got a proper transmitter site. I believe (and Scott, I'm sure you know for sure...please tell me if I'm wrong) the stick is actually in Nevada, on Silver Peak, giving them tremendous elevation and an unobstructed line of sight straight down Owens and Death Valleys into the Mojave area and the backside of the Angeles National Forest outside L.A.

The signal runs out of juice before then..but not by a lot...a situation helped by the fact that (at least the last time I checked) the nearest station on 100.7 is KFMB-FM, San Diego, about 350 miles away.

Certainly beats the string of translators other stations up there have to use to cover the 120 miles of US 395 from Olancha to Mammoth Lakes.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

Now, switching to ancient modulation for a moment, us teens in Tucson used to favor KTKT as our RnR outlet but it was a daytimer and signed off about dinner time. So, while cruising Speedway between the Johnnie's Drive-In's we'd tune to KOMA 1520 out of Oklahoma City (a clear channel 50,000 watt blowtorch in those days). It was fairly reliable if a bit static-filled. Other AM's coming in reliability and clearly included one from Boise, KOA from Denver, KSL from Salt Lake City and, I think, KOB from Albuquerque.

Using the Old Gringo's yearbook stash and the 1960 edition for reference--since
KTKT's daytime-only status changed to fulltime in spring 1960 (sorry if I "torched"
you demo-wise there, Senor Tuna )--then-KOB 770 Albuquerque was, as noted,
a probable, although it was 50 kw-D, 25 kw-N at that time (the 50 kw-U, DA-N
coming later).

Boise however is a stumper. KBOI 670 was KBOI 950 in 1960, with 5 kw-U, DA-N.

Not sure when the Feds gave the bad news to WMAQ Chicago and opened up
670, along with 720, 780 and 890 (others?) for western U.S. class II stations
on I-A freqs. Professors Davis, Fybush or Hagerty may know the details.

You would also have had 64/KFI--OK, years before that moniker--let's try
"50,000-watt, clear channel, K-F-I, Los Angeles...Earle C. Anthony Inc."
blasting into Tucson at night, along with KNBC 680 San Francisco (now KNBR).

Oh, and I almost forgot, 50 gallons from El Lay also on "Senate Bill KNX 1070." ;D

 

[landtuna]

Using the Old Gringo's yearbook stash and the 1960 edition for reference--since
KTKT's daytime-only status changed to fulltime in spring 1960 (sorry if I "torched"
you demo-wise there, Senor Tuna )

It wouldn't take a genius to figure out where I am on the human calendar of life since most of my posts refer to the 50's and 60's. I've still got hair and teeth and I figure that's good enough. ;D

My family moved from Tucson to San Francisco early summer of 1960 so I would have been listening to KTKT only a few months when they were full time. Funny, but I don't remember them going 24. Maybe I had switched to KAIR by then.

 

[fybush]

Roy brought Jay Stevens (KGB, KFRC, KRLA, KROQ and at that time KKDJ) in as a partner in 1975 and got a proper transmitter site. I believe (and Scott, I'm sure you know for sure...please tell me if I'm wrong) the stick is actually in Nevada, on Silver Peak, giving them tremendous elevation and an unobstructed line of sight straight down Owens and Death Valleys into the Mojave area and the backside of the Angeles National Forest outside L.A.

The signal runs out of juice before then..but not by a lot...a situation helped by the fact that (at least the last time I checked) the nearest station on 100.7 is KFMB-FM, San Diego, about 350 miles away.

Certainly beats the string of translators other stations up there have to use to cover the 120 miles of US 395 from Olancha to Mammoth Lakes.

Silver Peak, yes...but that's still very much in California, up there in the White Mountains north of the bristlecone pines between Bishop and Deep Springs, my old stomping grounds. There's still another mountain range yet to go before you cross into the Fish Lake Valley and Nevada.

There are now two other FMs (religious KWTW 88.5 and classic rock KRHV 93.3) up at Silver Peak, along with a DTV (KBBC 20) that was off the air when I drove through last month.

KIBS has its own chain of translators now, too, even though the 100.7 signal still has awesome coverage up and down 395.

 

[fybush]

Boise however is a stumper. KBOI 670 was KBOI 950 in 1960, with 5 kw-U, DA-N.

Not sure when the Feds gave the bad news to WMAQ Chicago and opened up
670, along with 720, 780 and 890 (others?) for western U.S. class II stations
on I-A freqs. Professors Davis, Fybush or Hagerty may know the details.

KBOI's move to 670 came in the late 60s - I want to say 1968 off the top of my head. It was one of the first of the western class II stations to come on the air officially, though KOB had been operating on 770 since WWII under a succession of temporary grants while the litigation between Albuquerque and WABC proceeded at great length.

Most of the other western IIs came later on - KDWN and KCRL/KROW in the 70s, KDXU and KTNN not until the 80s.

I'd be surprised if KBOI is still a decent night signal in Phoenix. They took a big night downgrade a few years back at the behest of Lotus, which built KBOI a new six-tower night facility so that it could upgrade 670 in Simi Valley CA. In the end, the Simi Valley upgrade never happened, and that opened up a hole that was filled by the new 670 in Vegas. Today the KBOI night signal is aimed in a fairly tight northward lobe from the site southwest of Boise.

 

[michael hagerty]

Michael Hagerty, if he's reading this, will appreciate it when I say that before NAB this year I spent some time in California's very rural Owens Valley, enjoying the amazing reach of KIBS-FM 100.7 in Bishop (and two other FMs now located up there in the 20+ years since I lived there.) Unlike most urban or suburban FMs these days, KIBS just goes and goes and goes until there's no more signal left to go. I was still hearing it way down in Death Valley, hundreds of miles to the south.

Scott: That's a major improvement over the signal when I helped Roy Mayhugh put 100.7 (then KIOQ) on the air in the fall of 1974. Of course, at that point the stick was on the telephone pole outside Roy's house on a side street about three blocks east of Main (the studio was in his garage).

Roy brought Jay Stevens (KGB, KFRC, KRLA, KROQ and at that time KKDJ) in as a partner in 1975 and got a proper transmitter site. I believe (and Scott, I'm sure you know for sure...please tell me if I'm wrong) the stick is actually in Nevada, on Silver Peak, giving them tremendous elevation and an unobstructed line of sight straight down Owens and Death Valleys into the Mojave area and the backside of the Angeles National Forest outside L.A.

The signal runs out of juice before then..but not by a lot...a situation helped by the fact that (at least the last time I checked) the nearest station on 100.7 is KFMB-FM, San Diego, about 350 miles away.

Certainly beats the string of translators other stations up there have to use to cover the 120 miles of US 395 from Olancha to Mammoth Lakes.

I checked Radio-Locator and it is Silver Peak.

They're only putting 1,000 watts through the stick...but that stick is at 10,800 feet and change. The HAAT (height above average terrain) is only a few hundred feet...but that's the mountain.

The communities in the Owens Valley (Bishop, Big Pine, Independence and Lone Pine) are between 4,100 and 3,500 feet...meaning that signal looks down roughly 7,000 feet...it can see everything.

Death Valley actually has an area that is 200 plus feet below sea level...meaning KIBS' stick is a full 11,000 feet higher...two miles plus...which, without same or adjacent channel interference, is why it can be heard clearly 200 miles from the stick.

Beats the hell out of what we rigged up in '74...to say nothing of what used to be the area's only station, KIBS-AM (now KBOV) which at 1230 and 1kw in dry soil was lucky to cover
30 miles. At night with 250 watts, it was more like 10 or 15.

KIBS-FM lived once before...from 1967 to 1969 and then went dark for five years befor Roy Mayhugh (a fellow former KIBS high school DJ) got the CP to resurrect in in '74.

I don't remember (probably never knew) where the stick was for that short run...maybe atop the AM tower out back. I don't ever remember seeing STL gear.

 

[michael hagerty]

Boise however is a stumper. KBOI 670 was KBOI 950 in 1960, with 5 kw-U, DA-N.

Not sure when the Feds gave the bad news to WMAQ Chicago and opened up
670, along with 720, 780 and 890 (others?) for western U.S. class II stations
on I-A freqs. Professors Davis, Fybush or Hagerty may know the details.

KBOI's move to 670 came in the late 60s - I want to say 1968 off the top of my head. It was one of the first of the western class II stations to come on the air officially, though KOB had been operating on 770 since WWII under a succession of temporary grants while the litigation between Albuquerque and WABC proceeded at great length.

Most of the other western IIs came later on - KDWN and KCRL/KROW in the 70s, KDXU and KTNN not until the 80s.

I'd be surprised if KBOI is still a decent night signal in Phoenix. They took a big night downgrade a few years back at the behest of Lotus, which built KBOI a new six-tower night facility so that it could upgrade 670 in Simi Valley CA. In the end, the Simi Valley upgrade never happened, and that opened up a hole that was filled by the new 670 in Vegas. Today the KBOI night signal is aimed in a fairly tight northward lobe from the site southwest of Boise.

Scott: I was listening to KBOI on 670 in Bishop in '67 or '68.

KCRL was 1969. They took out a full page ad in the Bishop paper even though the daytime signal didn't really make it much past June Lake. Nighttime wasn't bad for being sandwiched in between KOB and KABC, but once E.L. Cord died and his widow took over the station, it was over. She changed the format to Classical (long quiet stretches without processing) and ran on reduced power to save energy costs.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

Trying now to send this thread back to some semblance of it's beginnings...

Lauren, did you do any AM listening while "peaked out" up at the top?

Ancient modulation (I bet Akbar wishes he trademarked that ;D) is normally
elevation-neutral, however I'm curious to know if there was little-to-no
electrical interference "up there," as opposed to "down here." Not to be
confused with I-CRAP interference which is "everywhere." :