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FM Processing Question

L

local oscillator

At the risk of again bringing up a topic that has been discussed ad infinitum, I'd like to ask for opinions on a specific choice.

I have two analog processing options for a classic rock-formatted station: 1. Compellor + 8100A/1 + XT2 or 2. Compellor + Prisms + 8000A/1 with RCF-1 card. All units are recapped/updated/refurbished, etc. Either chain will go into a composite STL, composite clipper, and Digit exciter.

It's going to be one or the other, so digital boxes and other options aren't in the mix. Which do you prefer - 1 or 2 - and why? I'm sitting on the fence; I will greatly appreciate any and all input.
 
The 8000A can't have an RCF-1 card...for the sake of this discussion, I'll assume it is an 8100A/1. There are many who've used the Prisms with great success, but my vote is to use option 1 with these two modifications : 1) Remove the HF limiter chip that's longways behind the HF limit pot and 2) turn the safety clipper pots on cards 8 and 9 fully clockwise. Run the clipping on the XT2 high and run the density on the XT2 for just a few db maximum on the 6 meters. I'm still running that setup on at least 3 stations and for 25 year old processing, I'm very pleased .
 
I agree with Bob here, use the XT2 but lightly to do the clipping. When those things are driven harder into limiting, they become a wall of sound and everything sounds "the same" that goes through them.

The processing will suit the material well for classic rock.

One idea: If you can sell the Compellor and Prisms and raise the money for an Ariane, do it! If I had the Ariane, I would run Ariane+8100 with RCF-1 and composite clipper. You'll sound open and loud with that combo.
 
Seconded Ariane AGC and 8100 is a heavenly combination sonically set lightly. My favorite Classic Rock and Oldies combination for processing.
 
Your comments are much appreciated. So far, it seems the XT2 version wins over the Prisms version. It also seems that the Ariane is a clear winner over a Compellor. Unfortunately, I have a perfectly fine Compellor sitting on the shelf, and Arianes aren't cheap and don't seem to be available used.
 
Sell your Compellor and the Prisms!! You'll get roughly $1k for the Prisms and $500-600 for the Compellor. More if you find a sucker to pay $800 or so.

Street on the Ariane is roughly $2,400~$2,500. Trust me, you'll be glad you did. And there's a very good reason that Arianes aren't available used--once in the chain, nobody will part with one.

Give TransLanTech a call. Maybe they have one of the old analog units left over cheaper than the Sequel. It would play nice with your setup.

Ditch the Compellor if you can. They were great in 1990, but there are much better options for leveling now.

I ran an Ariane with the Cobalt Blue card on a rock station, was loud. Not completely clean, but it sure was loud.
 
PS- See if you can demo an Ariane. If ownership/management hears it they might go for selling the other pieces to pay for it.

Disclaimer: I don't work for TLT. But I would put an Ariane in front of my toaster if I could. Would make nice, evenly brown toast I'm sure :p
 
They work wonders on an AM signal too, feeding the processor very controlled but not smashed audio.
 
WNTIRadio said:
PS- See if you can demo an Ariane. If ownership/management hears it they might go for selling the other pieces to pay for it.

Disclaimer: I don't work for TLT. But I would put an Ariane in front of my toaster if I could. Would make nice, evenly brown toast I'm sure :p
Click to expand...

I agree. The Ariane is the best "front end" out there. I can't wait to hear the "B9", which I believe will be the next box from TLT.
 
local oscillator said:
Compellor + Prisms + 8000A/1 with RCF-1 card.
Click to expand...
I presume that you meant "8100A/1."

If you are looking for only male listeners that would be my choice. Be aware, though, that Audio Prisms can turn off adult female listeners because of their top band. The 10 dB boost given to that top band to incease processing (it is the band with the least inherent energy) results in a sound that females often characterize as harsh or overly bright. Prisms have other drawbacks as well, such as the fixed, equal-Q filters which cannot be easily tailored to suit your needs, the lack of input gain crontrols for the four bands, and the abyssmal phase rotators. All of those are hardware problems which can be overcome with hardware modifications by a skilled engineer. A Compellor (set to slow AGC action with no compression or limiting) is a must in front of the Prisms, which can become very naughty when you get out of their sweet spot (but that is true of many processing systems).
 
And by the time you do all that with the Prisms, you could have sold them and the Compellor and replaced them with an Ariane.

The Prisms were innovative 25 years or more ago, but now, they are outdated and obsolete. I wouldn't run a set of them anywhere for any reason now.
 
WNTIRadio said:
... replaced them with an Ariane.
Click to expand...
It all depends upon your processing goals. A Compellor followed by modified Prisms can do things that an Ariane cannot do because of the topographic differences between the two systems.
 
True. And I've modified and used Prisms in the past. If you stay on top of them, they can be okay at best. Every couple of weeks I had to tweak them because the the left and right units would drift apart, which was a common problem for them. Tracking between units was a pain, and tying them together didn't work well either.

The analog Ariane, if set to a small IDR and fastest release, could be made to approximate the Prisms, without the tracking problems that are inherent in the design.

All I'm thinking is that instead of putting all of that time/money into a 30 year old pre-processor, it would be much easier to put the Ariane in and set it and forget it. I used one with an 8100 that had the Cobalt Blue card and card Zero, and it was plenty loud enough yet still clean enough (only drive the Cobalt card to about 3-4dB of gain reduction) to hang in there.
 
WNTIRadio said:
All I'm thinking is that instead of putting all of that time/money into a 30 year old pre-processor, it would be much easier to put the Ariane in and set it and forget it./quote]
It may be easier, but is is suitable for that station? Again, it all depends upon what your processing goals are. If the goals are defined with sufficient precision the necessary topography should be evident. It then becomes a matter of procuring hardware with the requisite topography and implementing the goals.

Goals that require multi-band compression generally cannot be implemented with, say, a processor that does not include multi-band compression but only has multi-band limiting. Goals that require particular crossover frequencies cannot be implemented with a processor that has fixed crossover frequencies unless one is able to, say, refit a processor such as a Prism with new bandpass filters.

Many of the stations on the air today, particularly (but not exclusively) in middle and smaller markets, show evidence of a lack of well-defined goals and insufficient understanding of audio processing theory in their on-air sound. In most cases the combination of a programmer who can correctly define goals (and recognize when they are or are not implemented correctly), coupled with an engineer with sound theory and extensive experience, can make any processing system work better for a station.
Click to expand...
 
It appears that the controversy continues!

At my age (63), my "golden" ears (if they ever were!) have turned to brass and are on their way to tin! I have a hard time trusting them anymore, and the subtle differences are becoming lost on me. I still know what I like to hear, but separating "good" from "good enough" is becoming more difficult.

Our station is a classic rock/classic hits hybrid, age demo 35-64, 55/45 women to men. Most of the music we play is from the classic rock era and was originally heard by our listeners on AOR stations which were using analog Optimod processors with all of the various mods and add-ons that have been part of airchain mythology through the years. It's the "best" of that kind of processing that I'm looking for.

I realize that this is all subjective and there is no "right" answer, but I do appreciate the discussion.
 
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