-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Format Holes in the Bay area
- Thread starter e-dawg
- Start date
O
oldbossjock
Guest
At least know a little bit about what you are talking about. Bonneville does not have "shareholders" and there is no mandate to make a profit for shareholders, since it is a private company effectively owned by the Mormon Church! That doesn't mean they don't want to make money, but there is no duty to shareholders, other than Mother Church!
CHRles said:
I don't agree. Taking one market as an example... Cleveland... in the early to mid 60's they had several Top 40 stations appealing to 12-34, and a number of MOR stations like WDOK, WGAR and WJW, appealing to the 35+ audience. In addition, they had two R&B outlets, which broadly appealed to 18-49 at the time. For non-ethnic listeners, you had a pretty broad spectrum. Two to three Top 40's and three MORs and two R&B stations, all with slighly different falvors pretty much covered the far less fragmented tastes up to nearly the end of the decade, when FMs started approaching viability.
A similar situation existed in nearly every market.
oldbossjock said:
Yep. This is why Bonneville has been able to move AM news or news / talk formats to FM, such as Phoenix and Washington, DC, without having to worry about the adjustments in asset value on the AMs. They can think more in the long term, as they don't have to worry about share price, quarterly reports and all that stuff. It's just a different business model.
WGAR was, once upon a time (1963?) Casey Kasem's old stomping ground.
In the sixties, many major cities had at least one Top 40 powerhouse, many had two, and some (such as LA) had THREE.
They also had MOR and R&B stations to cater to to age groups, but legendary Top 40 stations played EVERYTHING.
Hearing Chubby Checker, The Beatles, The Miracles, Dean Martin, Louis Armstrong and Ray Charles on any given top 40 station within a 40-minute span was VERY common back in those days.
Or Frank Sinatra, The Monkees, The Bee Gees, and the Jimi Hendrix Experience within another 40 minute span wasn't bizarre under any circumstances back then (1967) at Top 40 radio.
In the sixties, many major cities had at least one Top 40 powerhouse, many had two, and some (such as LA) had THREE.
They also had MOR and R&B stations to cater to to age groups, but legendary Top 40 stations played EVERYTHING.
Hearing Chubby Checker, The Beatles, The Miracles, Dean Martin, Louis Armstrong and Ray Charles on any given top 40 station within a 40-minute span was VERY common back in those days.
Or Frank Sinatra, The Monkees, The Bee Gees, and the Jimi Hendrix Experience within another 40 minute span wasn't bizarre under any circumstances back then (1967) at Top 40 radio.
"Or Frank Sinatra, The Monkees, The Bee Gees, and the Jimi Hendrix Experience within another 40 minute span wasn't bizarre under any circumstances back then (1967) at Top 40 radio."
And it was not even uncommon to find a few country songs in the mix - Lynn Anderson ("I Never Promised You a Rose Garden"), Tammy Wynette ("Stand by Your Man"), Ray Price ("For the Good Times"), and many more.
People didn't talk about "crossover" hits very often in those days because Top 40 meant that anything that was a hit and had mass appeal got played.
A great format.
And it was not even uncommon to find a few country songs in the mix - Lynn Anderson ("I Never Promised You a Rose Garden"), Tammy Wynette ("Stand by Your Man"), Ray Price ("For the Good Times"), and many more.
People didn't talk about "crossover" hits very often in those days because Top 40 meant that anything that was a hit and had mass appeal got played.
A great format.
No this is the right place; Top 40's demise as a mass-appeal format started in the late eighties/early nineties, and that was a FAR cry from KHJ, KFRC, KYNO (Fresno, where Robert W. Morgan got his started before he came to KHJ in May of 1965), and the rest of the Drake-Chennault stations in the sixties.
Hearing country tunes on top 40 radio was no big deal in the sixties, seventies or eighties as LKeller pointed out; 'Ode To Billie Joe' spent a month at #1 in 1967, 'Harper Valley PTA' took the biggest jump in the history of Billboard's Hot 100 a year later, and would have been #1 for a month (or more) if it hadn't been for a little ditty entiled 'Hey Jude', and 'Convoy' was the #1 single of the year in 1976 at Record World magazine, one of the national trades back then.
One key reason why Z-95.7 never got any traction was because SF has had two longtime CHR/Rhytmic stations (especially KMEL, and KYLD) which played all of the top rhythmic material at the time Z95.7 was launched.
Since Oldies powerhouse KRTH/LA morning star Gary Bryan launched Z100 (KKRZ in Portland, Oregon) in 1994, very few CHR/Pop stations launched since then (Z95.7 included) have even remotely approached the 10.0+ rating which KIIS reached in the fall of 1984, as well as other CHR/Pop powerhouses of the eighties including WNCI (Columbus, Oh.) and WZPL in Indianapolis.
As long as CHR/Pop, CHR/Rhythmic and Urban stations continue to hyperventilate over chasing the same 12-17 and 18-34 year-old demos, NO CHR/Pop station launched in a city such as SF, a city with two FIRMLY entrenched longtime rhythmic powerhouses is going to be successful as KHJ or KFRC were in the sixties, or KIIS, WZPL. WNCI & others were in the eighties.
WNCI remains a CHR/Pop powerhouse today, with SUPERB 25-54 numbers.
Hearing country tunes on top 40 radio was no big deal in the sixties, seventies or eighties as LKeller pointed out; 'Ode To Billie Joe' spent a month at #1 in 1967, 'Harper Valley PTA' took the biggest jump in the history of Billboard's Hot 100 a year later, and would have been #1 for a month (or more) if it hadn't been for a little ditty entiled 'Hey Jude', and 'Convoy' was the #1 single of the year in 1976 at Record World magazine, one of the national trades back then.
One key reason why Z-95.7 never got any traction was because SF has had two longtime CHR/Rhytmic stations (especially KMEL, and KYLD) which played all of the top rhythmic material at the time Z95.7 was launched.
Since Oldies powerhouse KRTH/LA morning star Gary Bryan launched Z100 (KKRZ in Portland, Oregon) in 1994, very few CHR/Pop stations launched since then (Z95.7 included) have even remotely approached the 10.0+ rating which KIIS reached in the fall of 1984, as well as other CHR/Pop powerhouses of the eighties including WNCI (Columbus, Oh.) and WZPL in Indianapolis.
As long as CHR/Pop, CHR/Rhythmic and Urban stations continue to hyperventilate over chasing the same 12-17 and 18-34 year-old demos, NO CHR/Pop station launched in a city such as SF, a city with two FIRMLY entrenched longtime rhythmic powerhouses is going to be successful as KHJ or KFRC were in the sixties, or KIIS, WZPL. WNCI & others were in the eighties.
WNCI remains a CHR/Pop powerhouse today, with SUPERB 25-54 numbers.
"Since Oldies powerhouse KRTH/LA morning star Gary Bryan launched Z100 (KKRZ in Portland, Oregon) in 1994, very few CHR/Pop stations launched since then (Z95.7 included) have even remotely approached the 10.0+ rating which KIIS reached in the fall of 1984..."
OK - this really IS off topic, but I noted the bit of history about Gary Bryan. By "launching" Z-100, Marv - do you mean Fary was the PD? Z-100 must have been where Gary went after KFRC released him. People condemn the Imus controversy as being some new movement toward political correctness, but it happened many times before. Gary was teamed at KFRC with the Michael Savage-like J. Paul Emerson, who was famous for his right-wing rants. This was a year or so before "Hot Talk" KSFO was launched, so Emerson got a lot of attention, and good ratings followed. Management was obviously willing to let this continue as long as there wasn't too much complaining...though there was some. Finally Emerson went too far with anti-gay insults, caused an uproar, and they fired him. Bryan continued as a solo act for a few months, but I guess that station decided they needed new blood in morning drive.
Pardon the topic diversion...
OK - this really IS off topic, but I noted the bit of history about Gary Bryan. By "launching" Z-100, Marv - do you mean Fary was the PD? Z-100 must have been where Gary went after KFRC released him. People condemn the Imus controversy as being some new movement toward political correctness, but it happened many times before. Gary was teamed at KFRC with the Michael Savage-like J. Paul Emerson, who was famous for his right-wing rants. This was a year or so before "Hot Talk" KSFO was launched, so Emerson got a lot of attention, and good ratings followed. Management was obviously willing to let this continue as long as there wasn't too much complaining...though there was some. Finally Emerson went too far with anti-gay insults, caused an uproar, and they fired him. Bryan continued as a solo act for a few months, but I guess that station decided they needed new blood in morning drive.
Pardon the topic diversion...
Lkeller said:
No, Gary went to KJR-FM Seattle, then KRTH.
WPLJ was definitely an all out CHR/Pop station back in 1989 - it was known as Power 95 back then.
WNCI Columbus has had huge numbers in part b/c its got one of the best signals in the country. Compare it with that most of the other Columbus FM signals and see what I mean. It's also heritage CHR, and spent a good number of those years as an Adult leaning CHR.
As for Indi, it didn't have a lot of signals for a market of its size even in the early 90s, and 99.5 ZPL was a very white bread Midwestern CHR when it held those double digit numbers. It even had problems playing number one hits like EMF's "Unbelievable", and was still playing Eddie Money's "Shakin" in the early 90s. That all changed when Hoosier 96.3 came on the scene with a Rhythmic/Dance format.
As for Country music, its usually had a very hard time crossing over into CHR radio. That was definitely the case in the mid 80s.
Currently the big crossover is Carrie Underwood, of American Idol fame. Her song is even Top 10 at Z-100 NYC.
Anyways, the facts are most markets back in the day only offered Full Service Radio, MOR, and Top 40. If you were lucky, you also had a "Black" station or two in your market, but of course many major cities didn't have one for a long time. So what if there were 2-3 Top 40 and MOR stations! Compare that with the plethora of formats you could have available today. Hell, just on the A/C side of things you have Soft A/C, Bright A/C, A/C Gold, Rhythmic AC, Modern AC, Oldies, Jack/Adult Hits, Christian AC, Spanish A/C, Urban A/C, and of course Hot A/C. For Rock you've got Active, Modern, Classic Rock, Triple A, and College Rock. For CHR you have CHR/PoP, Rhythmic CHR, Adult CHR, CHR/Dance, Kids CHR/Radio Disney, Spanish CHR, and Rock leaning CHR (such as Sirius Hits 1). For Country there's Mainstream Country, New/Young Young, Country Gold, Texas Country, etc. For Talk you've got News/Talk, Conservative Rock, Young FM Talk, Sports Talk, etc.
Today's Top 40 radio has a much more competitive landscape to deal with. The FM dial isn't made up of 10 CHR and 10 MOR stations - it's made of a variety of formats that cater to different segments of the population. Since Top 40 radio is a Current hits based format, its only common sense that its primary focus isn't on the older audience...
WNCI Columbus has had huge numbers in part b/c its got one of the best signals in the country. Compare it with that most of the other Columbus FM signals and see what I mean. It's also heritage CHR, and spent a good number of those years as an Adult leaning CHR.
As for Indi, it didn't have a lot of signals for a market of its size even in the early 90s, and 99.5 ZPL was a very white bread Midwestern CHR when it held those double digit numbers. It even had problems playing number one hits like EMF's "Unbelievable", and was still playing Eddie Money's "Shakin" in the early 90s. That all changed when Hoosier 96.3 came on the scene with a Rhythmic/Dance format.
As for Country music, its usually had a very hard time crossing over into CHR radio. That was definitely the case in the mid 80s.
Currently the big crossover is Carrie Underwood, of American Idol fame. Her song is even Top 10 at Z-100 NYC.
Anyways, the facts are most markets back in the day only offered Full Service Radio, MOR, and Top 40. If you were lucky, you also had a "Black" station or two in your market, but of course many major cities didn't have one for a long time. So what if there were 2-3 Top 40 and MOR stations! Compare that with the plethora of formats you could have available today. Hell, just on the A/C side of things you have Soft A/C, Bright A/C, A/C Gold, Rhythmic AC, Modern AC, Oldies, Jack/Adult Hits, Christian AC, Spanish A/C, Urban A/C, and of course Hot A/C. For Rock you've got Active, Modern, Classic Rock, Triple A, and College Rock. For CHR you have CHR/PoP, Rhythmic CHR, Adult CHR, CHR/Dance, Kids CHR/Radio Disney, Spanish CHR, and Rock leaning CHR (such as Sirius Hits 1). For Country there's Mainstream Country, New/Young Young, Country Gold, Texas Country, etc. For Talk you've got News/Talk, Conservative Rock, Young FM Talk, Sports Talk, etc.
Today's Top 40 radio has a much more competitive landscape to deal with. The FM dial isn't made up of 10 CHR and 10 MOR stations - it's made of a variety of formats that cater to different segments of the population. Since Top 40 radio is a Current hits based format, its only common sense that its primary focus isn't on the older audience...
Marv-L.A. said:
But this doesn't explain why 89.3 KOHL in the Tri-City area (And can be heard in parts of Peninsula, South Bay, and East Bay) still uses the CHR/POP format.
After all, all of their HIP HOP songs get play on KMEL and KYLD, yet they continue to broadcast Top 40.
What was great about Z95.7 was that it was just like KOHL, but could be heard throughout the bay area. It was the one stop shop to hear a hip hop song followed by a top popular alternative song.
CHRles---I agree with a substantial portion of what you wrote, and especially the various 'types' of AC radio---there are tons of them.
I also agree that the fact that 'Before He Cheats' has made the CHR/Pop top 10 at both R&R & BB is downright astonishing; except for 'Achy Breaky Heart' in 1992, country music had essentially vanished from top 40 radio by the mid-eighties. Dolly Parton hit #1 with '9 To 5' in 1981, but that was about the last hige country hit at Top 40 radio that I recall.
My point regarding today's version of CHR/Pop radio is that as you or someone else stated recently, 'niche' formats are the rage at radio these days, and I do see your point about how an upstart, newly launched CHR/Rhythmic station can come into a market, take a huge bite out of the CHR/Pop powerhouse, and soar to #1 in less than a year.
That's essentially what KPWR did to KIIS here in 1986, and that eventually led to the format going away from its roots as a mass-appeal format and targeting the same 12-17 and 18-34 year old which CHR/Rhythmic and Urban stations today lust after.
I've noticed that very few CHR/Pop powerhouses today have 25-54 year-old numbers worth raving about; besides WNCI, there's WFLZ in Tampa and KHKS in Dallas among 19 of our twenty largest cities as published in the most recent edition of the R&R Register; I didn't check the numbers for Boston.
I also wrote recently that WKSC/Chicago's PD was quoted recently in R&R as saying that 'our objective is to dominate the 18-34 year demo'.
I don't think that any of the PDs at any Top 40 powerhouses in the sixties and seventies ever said that, and I seriously doubt that any of the PDs at KIIS, WZPL, WPLJ, Z100 (NYC), or WNCI ever said that during the eighties either!!!!!!!
Could someone refresh my memory and tell me when did Z95.7 debut, and which format it switched to (and when) after bailing out of the top 40 format?
I also agree that the fact that 'Before He Cheats' has made the CHR/Pop top 10 at both R&R & BB is downright astonishing; except for 'Achy Breaky Heart' in 1992, country music had essentially vanished from top 40 radio by the mid-eighties. Dolly Parton hit #1 with '9 To 5' in 1981, but that was about the last hige country hit at Top 40 radio that I recall.
My point regarding today's version of CHR/Pop radio is that as you or someone else stated recently, 'niche' formats are the rage at radio these days, and I do see your point about how an upstart, newly launched CHR/Rhythmic station can come into a market, take a huge bite out of the CHR/Pop powerhouse, and soar to #1 in less than a year.
That's essentially what KPWR did to KIIS here in 1986, and that eventually led to the format going away from its roots as a mass-appeal format and targeting the same 12-17 and 18-34 year old which CHR/Rhythmic and Urban stations today lust after.
I've noticed that very few CHR/Pop powerhouses today have 25-54 year-old numbers worth raving about; besides WNCI, there's WFLZ in Tampa and KHKS in Dallas among 19 of our twenty largest cities as published in the most recent edition of the R&R Register; I didn't check the numbers for Boston.
I also wrote recently that WKSC/Chicago's PD was quoted recently in R&R as saying that 'our objective is to dominate the 18-34 year demo'.
I don't think that any of the PDs at any Top 40 powerhouses in the sixties and seventies ever said that, and I seriously doubt that any of the PDs at KIIS, WZPL, WPLJ, Z100 (NYC), or WNCI ever said that during the eighties either!!!!!!!
Could someone refresh my memory and tell me when did Z95.7 debut, and which format it switched to (and when) after bailing out of the top 40 format?
Marv-L.A. said:
KIIS in LA is currently 4th in 25-54, based on a huge 18-34; the target is really 18-34 and that is the stated goal.
DavidEduardo said:
:'(25-54 Never could understand what a 25 year old had in common with a 54 year old but i'm sure Mr. Eduardo will tell me
BossJock1947 said:DavidEduardo said:
:'(25-54 Never could understand what a 25 year old had in common with a 54 year old but i'm sure Mr. Eduardo will tell me
It's the dominant sales demo.
And some stations have near-balanced audience in the whole demo, so there are some areas of commonality. KBIG in LA has about 30% of the audience in each of the subsets, 25-34, 35-44 and 45-54. KOVE in Houston has 27% each in 25-34 and 35-44. and 19% in 45-54. Many urban ACs have the same kind of distribution, too. Some mainstream AC's do as well; a country station may have pretty near Lots of country stations have near-flat percentages in all three of these demos and in 55-64 as well.
Even stations like Jack in LA have a strong 35-44, with lower but equal 25-34 and 45-54.
More niche formats lean to the younger or older ends, but the fact is that any staiton competing for ratings driven dollars needs to place well somewhere in 18-34 or 25-54.
- Status