Future of 1210 AM in Philadelphia

[FredLeonard]

Ravens and Irsays don't mix. Think about it.

And no, we aren't entitled to radio stations that play what we want. I hardly ever find something I like to listen to anymore, but I'm not trying to FORCE people into doing what I want.

Unless Julius holds a gun to Les Moonves' head, nobody is being "FORCED" to do anything. He, you and the rest of us have the right to be dissatisfied with any business, to express our dissatisfaction and disapproval, to withhold our patronage or participation (or in the case of radio, our attention).

 

[Ravens]

Unless Julius holds a gun to Les Moonves' head, nobody is being "FORCED" to do anything. He, you and the rest of us have the right to be dissatisfied with any business, to express our dissatisfaction and disapproval, to withhold our patronage or participation (or in the case of radio, our attention).

I'm talking about the guy who suggested harassing the station with frivolous public file inspections in hopes of getting then in trouble with the FCC. That's a scumbag move.

 

[FredLeonard]

I'm talking about the guy who suggested harassing the station with frivolous public file inspections in hopes of getting then in trouble with the FCC. That's a scumbag move.

"Frivolous?" "Scumbag?" Wow! Let's all feel bad for the big, bad corporation having to accept the responsibilities that go with a license to use the public airwaves. Boo-hoo.

 

[Ravens]

Oh, please. Public file inspections and constantly filing complaints do nothing to serve public interest and everything to do with harassing license holders that aren't giving obsessed fringe listeners what they want.

 

[FredLeonard]

Oh, please. Public file inspections and constantly filing complaints do nothing to serve public interest and everything to do with harassing license holders that aren't giving obsessed fringe listeners what they want.

These license holders are major corporations. If they don't like it, they should go into some unregulated industry. Or maybe they should agree to paying to lease the public airwaves, instead of getting to use them for free. I suppose you also object to all those poor corporations being "harassed" to protect the environment, worker safety and even public safety. Would you be OK eating in restaurants if the health department didn't keep checking them out? Why are you so concerned about one-percenters and their convenience and increased profitability anyway? They don't care about you. They screw up and they fire other people and give themselves bonuses. To save a few bucks, they are happy to pump poison into the air (why should they worry; they live someplace else).

 

[Ravens]

These license holders are major corporations. If they don't like it, they should go into some unregulated industry. Or maybe they should agree to paying to lease the public airwaves, instead of getting to use them for free. I suppose you also object to all those poor corporations being "harassed" to protect the environment, worker safety and even public safety. Would you be OK eating in restaurants if the health department didn't keep checking them out? Why are you so concerned about one-percenters and their convenience and increased profitability anyway? They don't care about you. They screw up and they fire other people and give themselves bonuses. To save a few bucks, they are happy to pump poison into the air (why should they worry; they live someplace else).

Since you are comparing this to safety and health regulations, telling an obsessed listener to inspect the public file and file FCC complaints would be akin to someone plucking a hair and putting it in his soup in order to get a restaurant shut down. It's a harassment tactic, nothing more.

Let the FCC do their job. Busybodies inspecting transmitter logs and public files are not doing ANYTHING to help keep the airwaves clear. Anyone who has ever worked at a station will tell you the same.

 

[Unregistered]

I disagree, this is OUR station and the programmers need to listen to us in terms of what we want on the station, not what the executives want. I'm tired of people saying that nothing's going to change. If enough people like myself are willing to call or e-mail the people that run the stations and demand change with the station, they would likely listen to us and make changes. We need to have more of a say about our radio stations, not just sit there and accept things. That's defeating the purpose.

I just want Glenn back on 1210 am at 9 to noon and Sean back on at 3:00.

 

[FredLeonard]

Since you are comparing this to safety and health regulations, telling an obsessed listener to inspect the public file and file FCC complaints would be akin to someone plucking a hair and putting it in his soup in order to get a restaurant shut down. It's a harassment tactic, nothing more.

Let the FCC do their job. Busybodies inspecting transmitter logs and public files are not doing ANYTHING to help keep the airwaves clear. Anyone who has ever worked at a station will tell you the same.

Only, nobody is putting a metaphorical "hair" in the public file.

I've worked at a station, actually several stations. I won't tell you the same.

You still haven't explained your slavish devotion to owners and their financial interests. Maybe you have the idea that these owners you are so worried about being inconvenienced are mom and pop members of the community. No, they are outfits like Bain Capital and Oaktree Capital Management. Or, in the case of 1210 AM, National Amusements.

 

[Ravens]

You still haven't explained your slavish devotion to owners and their financial interests. Maybe you have the idea that these owners you are so worried about being inconvenienced are mom and pop members of the community. No, they are outfits like Bain Capital and Oaktree Capital Management. Or, in the case of 1210 AM, National Amusements.

Again you show no sign of knowing anything about how this business works. Any time someone mentions Bain, it immediately puts up the nutjob red flag.

The mom and pop stations ARE the ones that are hurt by frivolous listener harassment. Clear Channel and company can pay fines and have lawyers on retainer to deal with this sort of nonsense. The mom and pop single station owners can easily be run into the ground by constantly having to defend against frivolous action.

That aside, it's still WRONG to use the FCC as a tool to get rid of radio you just don't like. No matter who owns the station.

 

[FredLeonard]

Again you show no sign of knowing anything about how this business works. Any time someone mentions Bain, it immediately puts up the nutjob red flag.

The mom and pop stations ARE the ones that are hurt by frivolous listener harassment. Clear Channel and company can pay fines and have lawyers on retainer to deal with this sort of nonsense. The mom and pop single station owners can easily be run into the ground by constantly having to defend against frivolous action.

That aside, it's still WRONG to use the FCC as a tool to get rid of radio you just don't like. No matter who owns the station.

Except we are not talking about "mom and pop" (assuming any are left). We are talking about CBS.

Sorry, I didn't realize nobody in your world is allowed to mention Bain Capital. Do you think there is no such thing as Bain Capital and they don't have major holdings in the broadcasting industry?

Where were you when the religious right was going after stations which carried Howard Stern? Or Married With Children? Or NYPD Blue? Or The Simpsons? I suppose when you all don't like something then it's not WRONG to use the FCC because you are doing God's work and you think God likes right-wing talk and does not like Howard.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

After reading all of this discussion, and in light of the other 'blowtorch' signals having trouble with the decaying AM listenership/demos, I have severe doubts that ANYTHING that gets put on 1210 is going to do much but erode anyway. Moreover, since a format change comes with risks about recruiting different listeners -- why else change? -- odds that anything they attempt will take so long to get off the ground that the entire AM dial will be at an FCC yard sale first.

And Julius :
Irrespective of any State of The Station Address you put before the owners, however THAT might go, there can't be any eMail or digital deployment available. The people who once listened found other placebos and other pacifiers elsewhere, either from the radio or the computer or cable or pads. There can't be any mass eMail from a mass that doesn't exist.

 

[Ravens]

Where were you when the religious right was going after stations which carried Howard Stern? Or Married With Children? Or NYPD Blue? Or The Simpsons?

This board didn't exist 20 years ago when that was happening, but it was wrong then too. Sorry to burst your bubble, but ALL of this harassment and gaming the FCC system to squelch speech is WRONG.

 

[FredLeonard]

This board didn't exist 20 years ago when that was happening, but it was wrong then too. Sorry to burst your bubble, but ALL of this harassment and gaming the FCC system to squelch speech is WRONG.

Squelch whose speech? The speech of the corporate owners. But the one percenters are the only people you care about. And the only freedoms you care about are one percenters' ability to exercise greed. Sumner Redstone doesn't care about you, Dude.

 

[davideduardo]

Except we are not talking about "mom and pop" (assuming any are left).

"Assuming any are left"

There are 11,138 commercial stations in the US. If you look at the small operators, with a family owner or perhaps two partners who own no more than a few stations in one town or nearby, you are talking bout perhaps 7,000 stations. Of course, it depends on where you stop defining a group as "mom and pop" but there are some operations with perhaps a dozen stations that are all tightly run by a single owner of their family.

For every WCAU there are a dozen KOAL's where the current issue is how to replace a tower blown down in a storm.

 

[FredLeonard]

David: I think your definition of "mom and pop" is rather generous. Depending on context, which in this case is group owners with hundreds of stations, "few" can commonly mean up to 10. Many of us can remember when seven AM and seven FM was the limit. I was thinking of a single station, owned and operated by an individual or members of one nuclear family.

But even with your definition allowing for 7,000 stations out of 11,138 (62.8%), how much of the total radio audience do those stations account for? What you are talking about is a gaggle of Class D AMs in the exurbs or small (often unrated). Mostly what they do is contribute to interference on the AM band, getting in the way of those stations that still have an audience. Hobby stations for some person whose idea of public service is letting his friends come on to rant about their pet causes - chamber of commerce radio. Or music I like therefore everybody else must listen radio. The Minnifield Communications Network.

 

[davideduardo]

David: I think your definition of "mom and pop" is rather generous. Depending on context, which in this case is group owners with hundreds of stations, "few" can commonly mean up to 10. Many of us can remember when seven AM and seven FM was the limit. I was thinking of a single station, owned and operated by an individual or members of one nuclear family.

The 7/7/7 rule went away in part due to the disastrous effect of Docket 80-90 which added or upgraded thousands of stations. It became impossible in many markets for anyone to make money, so consolidation was permitted. So the two brothers in Broken Wheel, ID, who had one daytime AM and a Class A FM had to buy out several of the Docket 80-90 stations added to the immediate area in order to become profitable again.

To me, a "ma and pa" operation is any close family or even two family operation that is concentrated in one city or region and run without outside investors.

And there are plenty of those still around. KOAL, co-owned with two FMs in Price, UT, is a perfect example. It's operated by one family.

But even with your definition allowing for 7,000 stations out of 11,138 (62.8%), how much of the total radio audience do those stations account for?

There are lots more of these than one initially thinks. WBEB is a good start. Then go to KKGO in LA. Both run by a single patriarch of a single family.

Sure, most are in smaller markets but there are plenty of them in rated markets, too.

What you are talking about is a gaggle of Class D AMs in the exurbs or small (often unrated).

We are talking about, using the example I gave, a higher power AM with a translator and two well powered FMs. There are operations of this kind under single families anywhere from Traverse City, MI to Prescott, AZ... and all the smaller towns in between. In those smaller markets and towns, they are providing about the only local service there is since smaller market newspapers are all but dead in many cases.

Mostly what they do is contribute to interference on the AM band, getting in the way of those stations that still have an audience.

Not really. Most are FMs. There are 10,000 FMs in the US and only half as many AMs.

Hobby stations for some person whose idea of public service is letting his friends come on to rant about their pet causes - chamber of commerce radio. Or music I like therefore everybody else must listen radio.

While there is a lot more involvement with local service organizations, that is not all that bad. Look at Paul Sidney's nearly 50 years of running WLNG in the East End until he passed away... eclectic music as a link for all manner of local service. Good local radio.

 

[FredLeonard]

David, yes there are some examples of good local radio among the mom and pop stations. But that's not the radio that reaches most of the population and it's not the radio to which most of the audience listens. What's available to most of the population is mostly corporate, syndicated - automated - voice tracked canned radio. Exceptions noted but the pattern is apparent.

And even in those mom and pop - good local radio stations nothing lasts forever. Mom and pop pass away, or retire or sell out to a corporate owner or decide to try going corporate and get in bed with some venture capital firm. Months later, good local radio has become a computer in a closet. I don't know how it is where you are, but back here the remaining mom and pop stations have completely or largely gone brokered.

And there's a fine line between corporate and mom and pop in cases like the Gillette, Wyoming cluster where "Small Market Guy" works which is owned by a consultant and broker back in Maryland.

But back to the original point: The burdens of regulation - including maintaining a public file - are the price license holders pay for otherwise free use of the spectrum. The file must be maintained whether anybody ever looks at it or not. If Julius shows up some day and wants to see it, no significant additional burden is imposed. Besides, corporate owners or any owner can always post the public file online and not be bothered further.

The main point is the FCC can not check each station closely. The public file, and the possibility that Julius might show up one day and want to see it, is one way to keep stations honest. But keeping stations honest, according to Raven, is "harassment."

 

[TheBigA]

David, yes there are some examples of good local radio among the mom and pop stations. But that's not the radio that reaches most of the population and it's not the radio to which most of the audience listens. What's available to most of the population is mostly corporate, syndicated - automated - voice tracked canned radio.

But whose fault is that? Certainly not mom or pop.

In Philadelphia, you have the amazing one-man story of Jerry Lee, who happens to own the most successful FM station in town. He's also fiercely independent, anti-syndication, and anti-automation. Two other family-run companies in Philly: Greater Media and Beasley.

 

[FredLeonard]

Family run = nepotism. Like one social climbing old lady who made her idiot son station manager as a form of work therapy - then screwed over her employees by selling out to Clear Channel, which was still family run until shortly after. Heck, National Amusements, Comcast and News Corp are "family run." No great trick. Just let the suckers buy non-voting stock and keep all the voting stock to yourself.

Everybody gushes about Jerry Lee. He and Lowry Mays started out at the same time. Each with one station. He still has one station. Anti-automation? Sure doesn't sound like it. Computer-generated elevator music.

 

[TheBigA]

Everybody gushes about Jerry Lee. He and Lowry Mays started out at the same time. Each with one station. He still has one station. Anti-automation? Sure doesn't sound like it. Computer-generated elevator music.

So I guess the only good mom & pop stations are the ones that have no ratings and no money. Several of those around Philly too. All on AM.