Good News For Many of the Area's Country Music Fans

[briancraig]

WHN was at one time a top 5 radio station in NYC, back when country radio was Hank Williams, Jr. and The Oak Ridge Boys. I know the rebuttal is that was 35 years ago and the demographics have changed.

But have they changed so much that a well programmed station playing Taylor Swift, Lady Antebellum and Blake Shelton wouldn't attract a very desirable audience. I don't think so and if country can work in such non traditional country markets as Boston and Philadelphia, there is no reason why if done right, it wouldn't work in New York.

And Jeffrey, you know that statements like "prefer the music most New Yorkers do" or "to the average New Yorker country is not on the radar" are meaningless. WCBS-FM gets about a 6.5 share which means that 93.5 % of New Yorkers aren't listening to "classic hits." Does that make CBS-FM not a viable format option?

 

[ansky212]

Yes, this is indeed good news for NY metro area country fans. But I just can't picture a whole lot of line-dancing happening in The Bronx. Have tastes changed there? Maybe I've been gone too long.

Why do people keep referring to the Bronx? WFAF does not, and never has, targeted the Bronx. Yes you may be able to pick up WFAF in the Bronx, but that is certainly not the audience they are trying to reach.

 

[jfrancispastirchak]

I just can't picture a whole lot of line-dancing happening in The Bronx...

Why do people keep referring to the Bronx? WFAF does not, and never has, targeted the Bronx. Yes you may be able to pick up WFAF in the Bronx, but that is certainly not the audience they are trying to reach.

My point precisely. WFAN's Mike & The Mad-Dog gave an on-air workout back in the '80s that made my knees buckle with laughter. They were skewing a local Cable TV provider's announced plan for adding The Nashville Channel to the city's cable service. "Yea," Mike sniped, "viewers in the South Bronx will flock to their TVs to watch the rodeo..."

 

[Barry]

The Bronx actually has its own country station, of sorts.
Country Hits HD is broadcast from WVIP 93.5's antenna in the Bronx. It is on HD3.
It covers the entire Bronx, and the immediate area around it. ;D.

 

[jfrancispastirchak]

The Bronx actually has its own country station, of sorts.
Country Hits HD is broadcast from WVIP 93.5's antenna in the Bronx. It is on HD3.
It covers the entire Bronx, and the immediate area around it. ;D.

Yea, but how many dozen listeners?

 

[NJMark]

Yes, this is indeed good news for NY metro area country fans. But I just can't picture a whole lot of line-dancing happening in The Bronx. Have tastes changed there? Maybe I've been gone too long.

Those who dance come to New Jersey.

Keep in mind country dancers and country radio listeners are not exactly the same group. Most listeners don't go to dance clubs, and there are many dancers who just dance, and don't know their Brooks from their Dunn.

 

[TimeIsTight]

if country can work in such non traditional country markets as Boston and Philadelphia, there is no reason why if done right, it wouldn't work in New York.

As an example, Boston is an entirely different ethnic population and station mix when compared with New York.

Both markets have about the same number of stations on commercial frequencies in the market core.

Of the 17 available frequencies available in Boston, only one has a Hip Hop format, and there are no Spanish language, or Urban Contemporary stations on the FM dial.

By contrast, in NYC, there are 18 or 19 available full market FM frequencies, three of them are Spanish language, two are Urban Contemporary, and two are Hip Hop.

The reason for the difference is that in the New York Market, Blacks and Hispanics make up just under 40-percent of the population, and in the Boston Market Blacks represent 6.2-percent of the radio market, and Hispanics 7.4-percent, or under a total of 14-percent.

That leaves a lot more frequencies available for formats targeting the kinds of people who like Country Music, because they represent a much bigger piece of the total market pie.

The situation is even tighter in New York because in addition to the seven Black and Hispanic targeted FM stations, there are currently four non-commercial stations in the commercial band. That leaves nine frequencies available for other formats, and, of those, only WPLJ and WEMP stand alone and are not part of a major owner cluster. Neither CBS nor Clear Channel has any real reason to go with a Country format, their stations are doing extremely well, or CBS apparently has other plans for 92.3.

Meanwhile, WEMP will likely either keep working on its news format or go to some kind of talk combination, and WPLJ is making money on the soccer moms, even if its ratings aren't stellar.

 

[WNTIRadio]

This is the problem I see with country... the perception of it that if you listen to it, you must line dance, wear a 10 gallon hat on a 5 gallon head and have a stars and bars sticker on their rusty pickup truck. It's like generalizing that if you listen to hip-hop, you must be on welfare and live in section 8 housing. Both generalizations are equally ridiculous.

I know a lot of people that have gravitated to country because they're not thrilled with the dance/techno direction of a lot of pop music has taken. Add to that the complete lack of any new quality rock, and then add the more rock/pop direction of country; that's why it is becoming more popular again. No, they don't line dance. Or wear a cowboy hat. Or own a six shooter and have naked lady mudflaps.

 

[uncamark]

It also should be pointed out that WHN's success with country included playing artists that the purists didn't consider country, which went everywhere from the Eagles to Olivia Newton-John to Bobby Vinton (WHN and WMAQ in Chicago played the hell out of "My Melody of Love" and made other country stations do the same thing) to Neil Diamond. At WMAQ, the other major market country success back then, their GM used to say when the purists complained about their playlist that 'MAQ played "music for people who like country music"--and playing the right pop songs that NY country music fans liked was a major factor in WHN's success, as well. Somehow, though, I have the feeling today that it would be more likely that those songs would come from the gold library (I can easily see a NY country station playing uptempo Eagles or "All Summer Long"--or that Lynyrd Skynyrd song Kid Rock sampled on that record).

 

[jfrancispastirchak]

Yes, this is indeed good news for NY metro area country fans. But I just can't picture a whole lot of line-dancing happening in The Bronx. Have tastes changed there? Maybe I've been gone too long.

Those who dance come to New Jersey. Keep in mind country dancers and country radio listeners are not exactly the same group. Most listeners don't go to dance clubs, and there are many dancers who just dance, and don't know their Brooks from their Dunn.

Cleverly stated, and I agree. Country music's frequent poster child, the American cowboy, is predictably characterized as an independently minded free thinking individual, a free spirited loner. Interesting then how country music has evolved into line dancing, a group activity where every participant stomps in lockstep.

 

[WNTIRadio]

And let's ponder this...

Walt Sabo though he found a format need for "women's news" (whatever that means) at 101.9. Big consultant, big flop and now a redirection after his exit.

What that suggests to me is the same "country will never work in New York" attitude may be wrong as well. At the very least an outdated notion from those who haven't listened to the past 5 or 6 years worth of pop country.

If I owned or were running a station that was getting constant below 1 ratings, I'd surely be thinking about it right now. Instead of being the third or 4th in a format, you would have it all to yourself. And give it a "city feel" with presentation with the music wrapped around it.

 

[jfrancispastirchak]

This is the problem I see with country... the perception of it that if you listen to it, you must line dance, wear a 10 gallon hat on a 5 gallon head and have a stars and bars sticker on their rusty pickup truck. It's like generalizing that if you listen to hip-hop, you must be on welfare and live in section 8 housing. Both generalizations are equally ridiculous.

I know a lot of people that have gravitated to country because they're not thrilled with the dance/techno direction of a lot of pop music has taken. Add to that the complete lack of any new quality rock, and then add the more rock/pop direction of country; that's why it is becoming more popular again. No, they don't line dance. Or wear a cowboy hat. Or own a six shooter and have naked lady mudflaps.

I couldn't have said it better. I've observed elsewhere on RadioInfo that disco was the best thing that ever happened to country music.

 

[Jeffrey]

This is the problem I see with country... the perception of it that if you listen to it, you must line dance, wear a 10 gallon hat on a 5 gallon head and have a stars and bars sticker on their rusty pickup truck. It's like generalizing that if you listen to hip-hop, you must be on welfare and live in section 8 housing. Both generalizations are equally ridiculous.

I know a lot of people that have gravitated to country because they're not thrilled with the dance/techno direction of a lot of pop music has taken. Add to that the complete lack of any new quality rock, and then add the more rock/pop direction of country; that's why it is becoming more popular again. No, they don't line dance. Or wear a cowboy hat. Or own a six shooter and have naked lady mudflaps.

I couldn't have said it better. I've observed elsewhere on RadioInfo that disco was the best thing that ever happened to country music.

We could go on at nauseum with this debate as has been done probably thousands of times on this board (although I suppose that's why we're here) over the last 10 years but the fact remains that there is still no country station in New York and it's doubtful there will soon be. With the recent sign on of suburban frequencies simulcasting pre-existing country stations and the new WJVC on Long Island the areas where country would be a viable format are, for the most part, already covered thus making a class B, ESB station even more unlikely.
Further more country music may not be the line dancing, cowboy hat, rusty truck music it once was but it is still a rather hoaky genre with lyrics about sexy tractors, beer goggles and a right wing lean. I fail to see how New York would relate and warm enough to today's country to make it a format that would bring in more than a 1.5 at best. If it were my money it certainly wouldn't be the format I would pick.

 

[Barry]

106.3 is being ID'd at the top of the hour as WDVY.

 

[NJMark]

but it is still a rather hoaky genre with lyrics about sexy tractors, beer goggles and a right wing lean. I fail to see how New York would relate and warm enough to today's country to make it a format that would bring in more than a 1.5 at best.

But that's the point: it's really not those things at all. You've cherry-picked a couple of novelty songs - from about a decade ago - attached a political stereotype which is tenuous at best, and are trying to define the entire genre by them - as though EVERY country song is tractors, nothing but tractors!

And the closest a song gets to politics is being pro-America. If being pro-America is "right wing," I think that's an indictment of the left wing more than it's a legitimate criticism of country music!

If New York can't accept country, why are there so many crossovers on the pop and AC stations?

Jeff Foxworthy summed up country music pretty well at the close of the 2007 CMT awards. Tell me what part doesn't apply to New York:

I like country music because it’s about the things in life that really matter. It ain’t about braggin' about how you're gonna mess somebody up or about how somebody ain’t respectin' ya. It’s about love, family, friends, with a few beers…. with a cheap woman and two-timin’ man thrown in for spice.

It doesn’t take political sides even on things as ugly as war. Instead it celebrates the men and women who go to fight them, the price they pay to do it, and the longing we have for them to return home to the ones that they love.

It’s about kids and how there ain’t nothing like em. I get tired of hearing about how bad kids are today because there are a lot of great kids out there that just need somebody to love 'em and believe in 'em. Country folks love their kids and they will jack you up if you try to mess with 'em.

People in country music don’t forget the people that allowed them to do what they do for a living. They sign autographs and they take pictures with the fans because they know without 'em, most of us entertainers would be getting a lot dirtier in the course of our workday. We are thankful that people want to hear the songs and the jokes that we write.

Country music doesn’t have to be politically correct. We sing about God because we believe in Him. We’re not trying to offend anybody, but the evidence that we have seen of him in our small little lives trumps your opinion about whether or not He exists.

We love country music because it touches us where we live. It’s about mamas and when they were hot, and when they are unappreciated and when they were dying.

It’s about daddies and the difficulties they have telling the people they work so hard to protect and provide for how they feel about them.

Country music is about new love and it’s about old love. It’s about getting drunk and it’s about getting sober. It’s about leavin’ and it’s about comin’ home. It’s real music, sung by real people FOR real people. The people that make up the back bone of this country.

 

[TimeIsTight]

Walt Sabo though he found a format need for "women's news" (whatever that means) at 101.9. Big consultant, big flop and now a redirection after his exit.

What that suggests to me is the same "country will never work in New York" attitude may be wrong as well.

Walt Sabo was trying to create a specific format that had never been tried before.

He was targeting young women because they are the most desired demos for advertisers. And that is because they make the biggest share of buying decisions. He was trying to reach them with "news" because that is a "foreground" format that listeners pay closer attention to than music. Many advertisers prefer the closer attention and will pay more for it. And the all news format allows more spots to be stuffed into each hour boosting the potential billing numbers.

That part of the strategy can't be argued with, but the execution of the programming and its marketing plan didn't go well. In some sense it was a rush job, put together over a couple of months using people who had never worked together before, and using a plan that hadn't been fully developed and tested. It was truly, a "let's wing it, throw some stuff at the wall and hope it sticks." They knew where they wanted to go, but they still don't know how to get there.

On the other hand, a whole lot is known about Country music as a format. There are loads of data on who listens, how much they make a year, where they live, what they buy, etc. You can be sure that a Country music format has nowhere near the chance of billing as highly or being as profitable over the long term as all news on FM aimed at younger demos, or specifically women.

The Merlin investors see the potential for a major market all news brand that has a real chance to bring in the big bucks and growth over the long-term. With younger people increasingly carrying smart phones and i-pod like devices no radio music format offers the same potential. For ethnic demographic reasons I won't bore you with again, the core of the New York market is likely to be less interested in Country music than it was in RXP's rock. And then there is the fact that the stereotype image of Country listeners isn't as attractive to some advertisers as other formats, and even if it becomes a ratings surprise, it could be a billing disappointment because of known data about typical Country listeners. IIRC, WRXP and WPLJ were not that far apart, ratings wise, but having an audience of suburban soccer moms produces billing for PLJ that just wouldn't go to an RXP, and would be even less likely to go to a Country station.

Investors who want profits and growth aren't going to put out all that money for a station that predictably scrapes along the bottom of the ratings or billings list, making just enough to "survive." Remember, RXP didn't survive and the format lasted only as long as it did because the station was for sale. The big cumes of the Clear Channel and CBS FMs aren't likely in New York with a Country format, but could be hit with all news or talk. Country has "survived" at times but not "thrived" in the NY market in the past, and the big money boys always want to "thrive." I have said before that the first thing I do when I drive out of the NYC radio market core is to turn on a Country station. I would listen to a Country station here, but when it comes to the likelyhood of a Country station in NYC I am going where the numbers and the other data takes me, not where I "wish" the data would go.

 

[ansky212]

But that's the point: it's really not those things at all. You've cherry-picked a couple of novelty songs - from about a decade ago - attached a political stereotype which is tenuous at best, and are trying to define the entire genre by them - as though EVERY country song is tractors, nothing but tractors!

I agree. Kenny Chesney has an old song called "She Thinks My Tractor's Sexy" that everyone keeps harping on. I suggest people now listen to his new songs like "Somewhere with You" and "Reality" and see what they think. I bet if you heard these 2 songs on a station like PLJ or Lite you wouldn't even guess it's Kenny Chesney.

 

[WNTIRadio]

On the other hand, a whole lot is known about Country music as a format. There are loads of data on who listens, how much they make a year, where they live, what they buy, etc. You can be sure that a Country music format has nowhere near the chance of billing as highly or being as profitable over the long term as all news on FM aimed at younger demos, or specifically women.

Has anyone run that data on the NYC metro?

Yes, Walt and Co. were trying to go after young females with "news", but how many times can that pie be sliced up? PLJ, Fresh, Lite, KTU, Z-100 and then "FM News".

The idea for the format was dumb. Period. Just because TMZ works for a 1/2 hour a day on TV doesn't mean that a 24/7 format of it was going to work.

 

[HHH]

For many years, all the "experts" thought that a Country format would never work in Boston. Sure there were rimshots, but never a full market signal Country music station.

Until Greater Media's purchase of the former Classical WCRB on 102.5

WCRB went off to a rimshot (99.5) and GM moved WKLB's Country music format to a full signal.

Country in Boston, over WKLB, is now the #4 total audience station in the market.

Now, what's this about Country not going to work in the NYC metro?

Ridiculous.

Someone is missing a golden opportunity.

 

[ansky212]

Yes, Walt and Co. were trying to go after young females with "news", but how many times can that pie be sliced up? PLJ, Fresh, Lite, KTU, Z-100 and then "FM News".

Yes, and the pie is sliced even further by the women that listen to WCBS and WINS. It's not like only men listen to these 2 news stations.