Got to hear "your" JACK

[AQH]

Re: JACK response

I'm asking because you contradict yourself in your own post and I'm asking you to back up your statements. I don't care about other boards, I don't have the time, nor do I care about them.


> Do I really have to explain these things to you? Are you at
> all aware of the thinking behind JACK (or Bob/Charlie/etc.)?
> If not I'd be happy to run it down but it's been plastered
> on every radio board for the past couple of months, ad
> nauseum.
>
> Not being a wise-guy. Just asking.
>
> > >
> > > ***JACK is meant to be unusual, unpredictable and
> purposely different
> >
> > Different how? You just stated that "train wrecks" do not
>
> > exist to listeners. Aside from having no jocks on the
> > station, how is it different?
> >
> > This is a world that has products and marketing that are
> so
> > narrow that, yes, Jack does sound a little pleasantly
> > different sometimes. But how long is it before it wears
> > off? There is clear evidence in other markets that Jack
> is
> > either losing its legs already or will never become a
> factor
> > in a market.
> >
> >
> > > ***JACK was designed as a station where it's OK to break
>
> > > "the rules"-- that's
> > > 80% of the charm. They are not supposed to have
> > > paramaters like the stale
> > > radio of today so many of you whine about every day
> >
> > What "rules" are they breaking?
> >
> >
> > > ***JACK-style formats are having really great early
> > success
> > > (earlier than I'd
> > > have thought) in Phoenix, L.A. and St. Louis.
> >
> > And the first US Jack is fading in Denver. Number two is
> > fading in Dallas as well. And Atlanta took a nosedive in
> > the ratings released yesterday.
> >
> >
> > > It's fine if you do not like them- I find most people
> > > bitching and moaning about JACK are the same people who
> > > incessantly whine about radio being old, tired, stale
> and
> > > same old/same old. Something fresh & new comes along
> and
> > > all of a sudden it gets criticized because it's 180
> > degrees
> > > different from the typical radio-think.
> >
> > Jack was a darling for some people on this board (like
> > Larry). I pointed out that the format couldn't be more
> > cookie-cutter, and that's still true. The only variation
> is
> > the logo used in LA and New York, different from the
> others.
> >
>

 

[camaro69]

Re: JACK response

I guarantee that AQH and most everyone else here knows what the concept is/was around the JACK formats. That's not at question here. We're talking about the actual execution of it. I used the term trainwreck so 90% of the people on here knew what I was talking about. And don't get me wrong, I do like listening to JACK for the most part. But tuning in as a 'normal' listener -- as detached from the biz as I can be -- I was appalled at the sound of the segue that I mentioned at the beginning of this string. It really did sound awful, by just about anyone's standards. And this lack of flow, jarring texture and juxtaposed tempos is undoubtedly why JACK stations generally have crappy cume numbers. The TSL seems to be fine, but the listeners aren't sticking around. And I can see why.

For example, if JACK were to go from a Led Zeppelin tune to a Celine Dion song (and that is not too much of stretch, by the way), would the person who really likes Zep stick around for the Celine tune? Highly unlikely. And someone tuning in and hears the Celine song, and likes it, probably wouldn't stay long if JACK then went fullsteam into a mid-charting Rick James number. I'm not dissing the music, just the way it is presented.

I would be the first to agree that radio has been over-researched and way too safe in its music selection. But there is a reason the industry has used focus groups and scheduling software for the past three decades or so.

If JACK stations started using the standard radio tools more judicously to make the music flow much better, then I really think they'd be a longterm player. We'll see if that transpires.

Oh, and am I certainly not IKnowItAll, but I'm guessing JACK's spring book will be OK. Usually they debut with a decent splash, then fade into an also-ran. We'll see.

 

[OldiesCat]

JACK response

the Led Zeppelin-to-Celine Dion is extreme and I don't see both of them on Jack stations.

You are right about using research, etc.- I'm one of the big "do your homework" flag-wavers. But the landscape has changed, technologically speaking. "Business as usual" won't get it done and before long, radio will be looking back asking, "gee what happened?".

>
> For example, if JACK were to go from a Led Zeppelin tune to
> a Celine Dion song (and that is not too much of stretch, by
> the way), would the person who really likes Zep stick around
> for the Celine tune? Highly unlikely. And someone tuning
> in and hears the Celine song, and likes it, probably
> wouldn't stay long if JACK then went fullsteam into a
> mid-charting Rick James number. I'm not dissing the music,
> just the way it is presented.
>
> I would be the first to agree that radio has been
> over-researched and way too safe in its music selection.
> But there is a reason the industry has used focus groups and
> scheduling software for the past three decades or so.
>
> If JACK stations started using the standard radio tools more
> judicously to make the music flow much better, then I really
> think they'd be a longterm player. We'll see if that
> transpires.
>
> Oh, and am I certainly not IKnowItAll, but I'm guessing
> JACK's spring book will be OK. Usually they debut with a
> decent splash, then fade into an also-ran. We'll see.
>

 

[OldiesCat]

JACK responses

OK- here goes:

> > ***JACK is meant to be unusual, unpredictable and purposely different
>
> Different how? You just stated that "train wrecks" do not exist to listeners. > Aside from having no jocks on the station, how is it different?

The JACK concept is different because the music is from a very wide era of years. The description "a mile wide and an inch deep" is pretty close. It'll play songs from Brown-Eyed Girl to Sugar Ray and most of the Top 40 in between.
That makes it different.
>
> This is a world that has products and marketing that are so narrow that, yes, > Jack does sound a little pleasantly different sometimes. But how long is it
> before it wears off? There is clear evidence in other markets that Jack is
> either losing its legs already or will never become a factor
> in a market.

Your premise is technically correct but has there EVER been ANY newly packaged format that instantly succeeds in every market? Of course not. JACK has debuted very well in LA, Phoenix, St. Louis. Other markets it's just too early to tell one way or another. When they're less than a year old, the statement "Jack is either losing it's legs already" makes no sense. I don't know how you can expect anybody to answer "how long before it wears off?". There are no crystal balls in radio. This is one of our big problems right now: Programmers say they don't have patience from corporate to get new stations up, rolling and established; then, critics like yourself are the first to jump on the anti-Jack bandwagon and after only a few months say, "see- told you. It's a dud. It'll never work. It's already losing steam, blah blah blah". Can't have it both ways.

> > ***JACK was designed as a station where it's OK to break
> > "the rules"-- that's 80% of the charm. They are not supposed to have
> > paramaters like the stale radio of today so many of you whine about

> What "rules" are they breaking?
>
Well, the music mix is the biggest. Conventional thinking wouldn't dare take music from 5 decades and mix it all up on one station. The "attitude" in the imaging, too.
>
> > ***JACK-style formats are having really great early
> success(earlier than I'd have thought) in Phoenix, L.A. and St. Louis.
>
> And the first US Jack is fading in Denver. Number two is fading in Dallas as > well. And Atlanta took a nosedive in the ratings released yesterday.
>
Nice try but Atlanta isn't recognized as a true "Jack" type station. Dallas' Jack is in the top 10 25-54 and the previous format wasn't even close. Again, your "Jack is fading" comments about Denver and Dallas just reinforce your bias against the concept. Give me one example of any radio station that doesn't go up and down in the ratings-- they all do. Individual market dynamics will help some establish quicker, some slower and, perhaps, some not much at all. This can also be said about AC, Oldies, CHR, Urban, Rock, Spanish, N/T, Country and every other format on the planet.

 

[AQH]

Re: JACK responses

> The JACK concept is different because the music is from a
> very wide era of years. The description "a mile wide and an
> inch deep" is pretty close. It'll play songs from
> Brown-Eyed Girl to Sugar Ray and most of the Top 40 in
> between.
> That makes it different.

Good point. But I'm not convinced people want THAT wide of variety LONG TERM.



> Your premise is technically correct but has there EVER been
> ANY newly packaged format that instantly succeeds in every
> market?

Yes. When Guy Zapoleon launched "Hot AC" in Houston at KHMX in 1992. You're still hearing it on the radio.



> JACK has debuted very well in LA,
> Phoenix, St. Louis.

Check your facts. There is no "Jack" in St. Louis or Phoenix.

Yes, the debut in LA was good.


> Other markets it's just too early to
> tell one way or another. When they're less than a year old,
> the statement "Jack is either losing it's legs already"
> makes no sense.

Dallas, Denver and Atlanta have been on the air for over a year. A four-book sample is what sales is looking for. No ratings, no sales.


> I don't know how you can expect anybody to
> answer "how long before it wears off?".

Remember the 70s craze in the mid-90s? How about Jammin' Oldies in 1999? How many of them are still on the radio?


> There are no
> crystal balls in radio. This is one of our big problems
> right now: Programmers say they don't have patience from
> corporate to get new stations up, rolling and established;
> then, critics like yourself are the first to jump on the
> anti-Jack bandwagon and after only a few months say, "see-
> told you. It's a dud. It'll never work. It's already
> losing steam, blah blah blah". Can't have it both ways.

If you want to characterize me as being on the "anti-Jack bandwagon," then fine.

But keep in mind that I have no problem acknowledging its wild success in Vancouver.

The jury is still out on the others. I personally wait for a year to see how they do to see how they truly are, to get rid of the "tire-kickers."

> Well, the music mix is the biggest. Conventional thinking
> wouldn't dare take music from 5 decades and mix it all up on
> one station. The "attitude" in the imaging, too.

True on the music. On the other side, isn't there a reason no one else has done it?

The "attitude" can be a put-off to people. Many people take their presentation as "screw you," and I'm not completely convinced that works in happy-go-lucky Seattle.



> >
> > > ***JACK-style formats are having really great early
> > success(earlier than I'd have thought) in Phoenix, L.A.
> and St. Louis.
> >
> > And the first US Jack is fading in Denver. Number two is
> fading in Dallas as > well. And Atlanta took a nosedive in
> the ratings released yesterday.
> >
> Nice try but Atlanta isn't recognized as a true "Jack" type
> station. Dallas' Jack is in the top 10 25-54 and the
> previous format wasn't even close. Again, your "Jack is
> fading" comments about Denver and Dallas just reinforce your
> bias against the concept. Give me one example of any radio
> station that doesn't go up and down in the ratings-- they
> all do. Individual market dynamics will help some establish
> quicker, some slower and, perhaps, some not much at all.
> This can also be said about AC, Oldies, CHR, Urban, Rock,
> Spanish, N/T, Country and every other format on the planet.

Uh, you said "Jack-style formats." That's why I included Atlanta. And that's why I didn't point out earlier that Jack does not have stations in Phoenix or St. Louis.

Again, if you want to call me "anti-Jack," go ahead. I'm just basing what I say on what the folks in Columbia, MD report. If those stations maintained their initial success, I would point that out too. I do think there will be a couple of markets where Jack just might work (including Seattle), but the majority, I think, are going to be looking for new formats in about 18-24 months.

Further on the ratings, yes, Dallas Jack is top 10 25-54. But they debuted in third place 25 to 54, now they're ninth in the just-relased Spring numbers.

The microscope is put squarely on "Jack" because it IS just that -- different. Buyers, local and national, want to wait and see if this is a viable format or it's just a flash-in-the-pan. This isn't unusual to "Jack," it happened to every other format that came on the radio.

 

[OldiesCat]

Re: JACK responses

> Good point. But I'm not convinced people want THAT wide of variety LONG TERM.

*** Who knows how "wide" that variety will be or for how long? Where is it written that must be determined right now? Radio is constantly changing and evolving. Let 'em fine-tune it 'till they get the right mix.

> > Your premise is technically correct but has there EVER
> been ANY newly packaged format that instantly succeeds in every market?
>
> Yes. When Guy Zapoleon launched "Hot AC" in Houston at KHMX
> in 1992. You're still hearing it on the radio.

***So, every Hot AC called Mix that Guy Zapolean has launched in every market is still on-air and still successful today? Guy's good- nobody's THAT good. One station does not a legend make.

> > JACK has debuted very well in LA, Phoenix, St. Louis.

> Check your facts. There is no "Jack" in St. Louis or Phoenix.

***Same premise- geez. Does that mean every CHR that's not called Kiss is not really a CHR? C'mon. Jack/Bob/Dave/Charlie- all very similar. If you MUST nitpick all the subtleties, it's not worth the time.

>
> Yes, the debut in LA was good.

***Are you kidding? From 16th to #4 25-54 in less than a year is GREAT!
I'm not predicting that will last (because I'm not into predictions), but it is a great beginning for them.

> > Other markets it's just too early to tell one way or another. When they're > less than a year old, the statement "Jack is either losing it's legs already"
> > makes no sense.
>
> Dallas Denver and Atlanta have been on the air for over a
> year. A four-book sample is what sales is looking for. No
> ratings, no sales.

***No ratings? Dallas' JACK has been Top 10 most of the time; Denver is up and down and I think you're mistaking Atlanta for Bob FM in Austin (which, BTW, is Top 5 book after book). Denver's growth is slow but they're not going DOWN.
>
>
> > I don't know how you can expect anybody to answer "how long before it wears off?".
>
> Remember the 70s craze in the mid-90s? How about Jammin'
> Oldies in 1999? How many of them are still on the radio?

***Cat, a TON has changed during the past 10 years. There was no satellite radio, no iPods and the Internet has grown by leaps and bounds with the advent of broadband- there are many, many more choices today. Jammin Oldies was one corporate programmer with what he thought was a bright idea and it flamed out in all but a very few markets. 70s craze has spawned quite a number of what are now Classic Hits stations, a number of them very successful. I will tell you this-- Jammin' Oldies NEVER had stations the stature of CBS-FM, WGLD, KCBS-FM
or WJMK flip in their limited days.
>
>
> True on the music. But, isn't there a reason no one else has done it?
> The "attitude" can be a put-off to people. Many people take
> their presentation as "screw you," and I'm not completely
> convinced that works in happy-go-lucky Seattle.
>
***Your question on the music is vague- what do you mean "isn't there a reason no one else has done it?" Done what?

On the imaging side, so what if the attitude is a put-off to people. Hip-hop is a turn-off to me but I wouldn't argue their right to exist and go for success. To me, soft ACs are insipid and boring, but for a lot of people their approach is just right and that's fine-- why should I care if they're not my cup of tea? Regular, every day radio listeners who might be Jack's eventual P-1 listeners find their "attitude" refreshing. Not every station is for everybody. And that's why the radio dial has choices.

 

[OldiesCat]

Seattle's Jack

First book, nearly doubled it's share 12+ and 25-54.

Long way to go? Yes. A good start- also, yes.

 

[barrisfan]

Re: JACK response

> the Led Zeppelin-to-Celine Dion is extreme and I don't see
> both of them on Jack stations.



i have heard led zeppelin on jack. very interesting debate here. to answer one of the statements about AQH...i will say it right now...i love jack and charlie (in portland). if there is a song i don't like on jack, i will flip it over to charlie for a couple minutes and then go back to jack. i have listened to jack since day 1 and i am not gonna leave. (yes, you can ask me in a year or so if i am STILL listening to it). previous to jack, i didn't listen to radio much (only on weekends when stations had an 80's flashback weekend...i found stations too boring and repetitious).

my .02 cents worth

 

[barrisfan]

Re: JACK response

check the ratings book...jack up 1 whole point since it's last predicessor (what was it...krock???) i want to know what the 25-54 ratings for jack are.