Has HD got stronger?

[radiopilot]

I have posted a 30 second podcast showing how 102.9 and 103.5 in Chiacgo make it impossible for me to enjoy WVVX 103.1.
I used to be able to listen without any problem. Now, it is "no longer usable".
I hope the link works.

http://thomasjwells.podOmatic.com/entry/eg/2007-05-24T20_43_44-07_00

Toms right.. it sounds like steam being released from a steam kettle... white noise.. it's clear and it's there... no dispute.. the fact that others claim not to hear it is that they recieve the stations they prefer to listen to in HD and could care less about the stations being interfered with for others.

Good post Tom.

Radiopilot

 

[Mike Walker]

Well now I've heard it. I have heard absolutely NOTHING like that with any of our local HD stations, and have tried. I've also tried listening to channels adjacent to HD stations in an attempt to hear something, anything amiss. I just can't repeat your experience. Not to discount it, of course. I have a "pop, pop, pop" at about 1 sec intervals that annoys the hell out of me when I listen to AM lately. You probably can't duplicate THAT, but it doesn't make it any less annoying TO ME.

How far away is the station you're trying to receive, in comparison to those interfering? Is it a case of a small, distant station being clobbered by large, nearby stations, and that you're not in the primary coverage (protected) area of what you're trying to receive? I know none of that matters if it's your favorite station (I would dealy love to be able to get RELIABLE reception on 88.7, WNCW in Spindale NC, but it just isn't possible because they're adjacent to another of my favorite stations...WFDD 88.5 in Winston Salem NC. WNCW is HD. WFDD is not...yet. They're planning on converting in the next few months. What I'm getting is just adjacent noise, NOT anything having to do with IBOC. The interference is EXACTLY the same as before WNCW went HD. I even had their engineer cycle the HD off and on a year or so ago to see if I could hear any effect. I couldn't.

I miss my JVC 1100BK that I had back in the '90s. In narrow bandwidth mode, with the roof ariel and rotor I had then, I could separate these stations very easily.

 

[jras20]

I have posted a 30 second podcast showing how 102.9 and 103.5 in Chiacgo make it impossible for me to enjoy WVVX 103.1.
I used to be able to listen without any problem. Now, it is "no longer usable".
I hope the link works.

http://thomasjwells.podOmatic.com/entry/eg/2007-05-24T20_43_44-07_00

What kind of radio do you use? KBPA 103.5 is a C station 12 miles from me. and has HD-2 I can clearly pickup KTXX 103.1 very good, even with a wire hanging as a antenna.

 

[calstymes]

Mike Walker queried:

How far away is the station you're trying to receive, in comparison to those interfering?

That's the key! Obviously, he is located outside of the "protected controur" for the station he is trying to receive.

Dave will tell you that you no longer have any right whatsoever trying to listen to a radio station when you are outside of its "protected contour", even if once upon a time you were able to do that. The FCC is now insuring that you will no longer be able to do that.

Again...... my existing radios all worked fine until iBiQuity offered to break them for me.

How nice.

 

[clouseau]

Mike Walker queried:

How far away is the station you're trying to receive, in comparison to those interfering?

That's the key! Obviously, he is located outside of the "protected controur" for the station he is trying to receive.

Dave will tell you that you no longer have any right whatsoever trying to listen to a radio station when you are outside of its "protected contour", even if once upon a time you were able to do that. The FCC is now insuring that you will no longer be able to do that.

Again...... my existing radios all worked fine until iBiQuity offered to break them for me.

How nice.

That's one way of looking at it. The FCC, <sarcasm mode = "on"> in their infinite wisdom <Sarcasm Mode = "off"> has determined that "DX" is no longer a factor "AT ALL".

This entire Chicago thing is very difficult to refine the facts. The is no station with the calls listed. I assmum he's referring to WVIV. There is no databas listing for a 102.9 anywhere near Chicago. I assume he means 102.7. WVIV has had a construction permit to change location by a pretty good distance which looks like it was NOT built. Or maybe used but not licensed. This could have been tried and abandonded. Who knows?

The station was sold in the middle of all this, so maybe it "Moved IN", Maybe it didn't. Also, without a first adjacent 102.9 in the picture, there IS no generated interference. That is, there is no radiation on a common frequency between these 3 stations. I don't know the location, but if this recording is real, I would think it is a radio issue. Again, if there was a 102.9 in the equation, it would make sense. 2nd adjacent HD's just DON'T interfere with each other on a "Spectrum Used" basis.

I'd really like to see some more facts on this one.

Clouseau.

 

[Tom Wells]

I have apparently a bad memory, as I had "long ago" noted that station as 102.9 W ? BMX? I admit my bad here and afirm the lower station is
102.7 confirmed w sangean 803. The upper, 103.5 I mentally note as WFYR regardless of today's situation.

I must look at some Radio Locator maps, but here's the data to mull.

I have hours of clear recording of this signal from the southern tip of lake michigan, 45 miles more distant, from the 70's.

Whatever the station is at 103.1 now is, it was WVVX Highland Park, IL, and now I live about 25 miles from there.
One of the reasons I bought the Sansui was that it picked WVVX out every day, anyday.

So I used to able to pick up WVVX between 102.7 and 103.5 with far cheaper radios way before the Sansui, from 70 miles
with all stations head-on into the yagi.

Now, I am on the north side of Chicago, 7 miles from downtown, and presume the big guns are off the back end of the yagi, now pointed north
toward HIghland Park.

It is the same FM-only Winegard deep-fringe antenna ( they stopped making this huge model a long time ago) I used in Indiana.
The same Sansui.

This station sounded quite good from this location, but for so many years has had no programming of use to me.

And now the Sansui has an incredibly razor-thin point where it will decode FM stereo when HD is there.
THe tuning of WFMT is NOT subject to this effect. No HD on WFMT.
I think I can also still hear WCCQ 98.3 because WFMT is not HD>
Often WLUP FM will not decode stereo at all, and WCKG sometimes has funny dropouts in the left channel in stereo.

I did tune from center to upper, then lower, then back to center, and repeated once.
I didn't dwell on the buzz to the "sides" as these are clear enough, but the wavy mush over the audio is very real.
Would anyone like to hear an aircheck of the same situation from 197X? I'll post it.
Sometimes there was airplane multipath flutter. But it was never like it is now.

 

[Mike Walker]

I should point out that, as big an HD fan as I am, if I "have no right to expect service outside of the protected contour", I would get not only no HD, but almost NO FM, because while I can receive many FM stations, and a bunch of HD ones, I am in the protected contour of only one...WKBC FM, North Wilkesboro NC.

 

[scanman1]

Just for the heck of it, I tried tuning in WVIV 103.1 here at my home on the southwest side of Chicago. No problem receiving an almost crystal-clear, listenable signal on all three of my analog FM tuners. 8)

 

[Tom Wells]

Just for the heck of it, I tried tuning in WVIV 103.1 here at my home on the southwest side of Chicago. No problem receiving an almost crystal-clear, listenable signal on all three of my analog FM tuners. 8)

! Maybe it's the 7 miles from downtown thing. How far from downtown are you?

I'll try some more radios and return.

 

[scanman1]

Just for the heck of it, I tried tuning in WVIV 103.1 here at my home on the southwest side of Chicago. No problem receiving an almost crystal-clear, listenable signal on all three of my analog FM tuners. 8)

! Maybe it's the 7 miles from downtown thing. How far from downtown are you?

I'll try some more radios and return.

About 8 miles. 8)

 

[jras20]

While we're talking about AM 1200 WOAI is in HD, 1160 is in HD in San antonio as well. I can also pick up KTMR 1130 from Edna great no problems at all in my analog truck radio. KTMR is analog daytimer.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I should point out that, as big an HD fan as I am, if I "have no right to expect service outside of the protected contour", I would get not only no HD, but almost NO FM, because while I can receive many FM stations, and a bunch of HD ones, I am in the protected contour of only one...WKBC FM, North Wilkesboro NC.

Apparently your right to listen to anything but your only "protected" FM signal, WKBC FM, have been revoked by the FCC, the HD radio cartel, iBiquity, and the HD radio supporters.
Sorry Mike, except for WKBC FM, no FM for you. You no longer have any right to listen.
Is that the HD Cartel police I hear knocking at your door?

 

[R.F. Burns]

I should point out that, as big an HD fan as I am, if I "have no right to expect service outside of the protected contour", I would get not only no HD, but almost NO FM, because while I can receive many FM stations, and a bunch of HD ones, I am in the protected contour of only one...WKBC FM, North Wilkesboro NC.

Apparently your right to listen to anything but your only "protected" FM signal, WKBC FM, have been revoked by the FCC, the HD radio cartel, iBiquity, and the HD radio supporters.
Sorry Mike, except for WKBC FM, no FM for you. You no longer have any right to listen.
Is that the HD Cartel police I hear knocking at your door?

If you knew what you were talking about you would realize that the commision never wrote anything about listening to stations outside of their protected contour. What is law is that these stations are afforded no protection from interference. What is so difficult about that to understand?

 

[PocketRadio]

I should point out that, as big an HD fan as I am, if I "have no right to expect service outside of the protected contour", I would get not only no HD, but almost NO FM, because while I can receive many FM stations, and a bunch of HD ones, I am in the protected contour of only one...WKBC FM, North Wilkesboro NC.

Apparently your right to listen to anything but your only "protected" FM signal, WKBC FM, have been revoked by the FCC, the HD radio cartel, iBiquity, and the HD radio supporters.
Sorry Mike, except for WKBC FM, no FM for you. You no longer have any right to listen.
Is that the HD Cartel police I hear knocking at your door?

"HD Radio Solutions"

"HD Radio preserves the coverage of existing stations and the concept of localism that is essential element of AM/FM broadcasting."

http://www.broadcast.harris.com/radio/hdradio/faq2.html

HD/IBOC will self-destruct - just imagine, with WLW and WOR, both members of the HD Radio Alliance, clobbering each other outside of their protected contours (and probably IBUZZing each other within their protected contours), losing countless listeners. How ironic !

 

[clouseau]

...just imagine, with WLW and WOR, both members of the HD Radio Alliance, clobbering each other outside of their protected contours (and probably IBUZZing each other within their protected contours), losing countless listeners. How ironic !

Yeah, just imagine. Amazing that neither of these two stations EVER thought of that. How foolish of both of these HUGE stations to not have the insight that you do. It's almost like they operate in some "Alternate Reality" of what's REALLY important in radio. And to think that WLW will lose ALL that revenue from people in the DC suburbs that listen to Reds baseball, just so people in Cincinatti can have better sound.

Hard to believe...

Clouseau

 

[R.F. Burns]

I should point out that, as big an HD fan as I am, if I "have no right to expect service outside of the protected contour", I would get not only no HD, but almost NO FM, because while I can receive many FM stations, and a bunch of HD ones, I am in the protected contour of only one...WKBC FM, North Wilkesboro NC.

Apparently your right to listen to anything but your only "protected" FM signal, WKBC FM, have been revoked by the FCC, the HD radio cartel, iBiquity, and the HD radio supporters.
Sorry Mike, except for WKBC FM, no FM for you. You no longer have any right to listen.
Is that the HD Cartel police I hear knocking at your door?

"HD Radio Solutions"

"HD Radio preserves the coverage of existing stations and the concept of localism that is essential element of AM/FM broadcasting."

http://www.broadcast.harris.com/radio/hdradio/faq2.html

HD/IBOC will self-destruct - just imagine, with WLW and WOR, both members of the HD Radio Alliance, clobbering each other outside of their protected contours (and probably IBUZZing each other within their protected contours), losing countless listeners. How ironic !

Using your logic I must go home and tell all of my radios that I shouldn't be receiving WNYH from Huntington on Long Island which is more than 50 miles from me. By the way, WNYH is between both WOR & WABC. Oh, I also receive a low power station WADS on 690 which is between 50 KW WFAN & WOR and it runs 3.2 KW, from nearly 70 miles away. yep, my radios must be doing something wrong.

 

[PocketRadio]

...just imagine, with WLW and WOR, both members of the HD Radio Alliance, clobbering each other outside of their protected contours (and probably IBUZZing each other within their protected contours), losing countless listeners. How ironic !

Yeah, just imagine. Amazing that neither of these two stations EVER thought of that. How foolish of both of these HUGE stations to not have the insight that you do. It's almost like they operate in some "Alternate Reality" of what's REALLY important in radio. And to think that WLW will lose ALL that revenue from people in the DC suburbs that listen to Reds baseball, just so people in Cincinatti can have better sound.

Hard to believe...

Clouseau

"HD vs. satellite radio: Readers sound off: Which is more important — programming or sound quality?"

"Last month I told you how much I liked the Boston Acoustics HD Receptor, the first HD table radio to hit the market. I said the sound quality is much better than I ever thought possible from local AM or FM stations. And, I thought that the possibility of new, varied programming channels might give satellite radio services a run for their money. I was amazed to receive a slew of poison pen (poison key?) e-mail telling me I didn’t know what I was talking about. That may be. But I think many of the satellite radio fans who wrote in missed my point."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10909934/

"Digital Garbage: Turning my FM radio into a novelty toaster"

"Why would you want to even tune in those small stations anyhow? Britney and Christina never sounded so good. HD Radio effectively pushes out all but strongest stations, eliminating weaker signals; "digital interference," or more aptly "digital censorship," will wipe out smaller cultural and educational stations. In addition, the digital processing will cause a delay in the broadcast. Live events, such as sports games and press conferences, would require a switch back to analog for real-time broadcasts. So much for the advantages of digital broadcasting, we lose diversity of content and are forced to revert back to analog technology for live events."

http://www.commonfrequency.org/HDradio.html

Looks like most people don't agree with you - hard to believe ! Oh, isn't there some little issue with the HD/IBOC delay during sports events ?

 

[R.F. Burns]

...just imagine, with WLW and WOR, both members of the HD Radio Alliance, clobbering each other outside of their protected contours (and probably IBUZZing each other within their protected contours), losing countless listeners. How ironic !

Yeah, just imagine. Amazing that neither of these two stations EVER thought of that. How foolish of both of these HUGE stations to not have the insight that you do. It's almost like they operate in some "Alternate Reality" of what's REALLY important in radio. And to think that WLW will lose ALL that revenue from people in the DC suburbs that listen to Reds baseball, just so people in Cincinatti can have better sound.

Hard to believe...

Clouseau

"HD vs. satellite radio: Readers sound off: Which is more important — programming or sound quality?"

"Last month I told you how much I liked the Boston Acoustics HD Receptor, the first HD table radio to hit the market. I said the sound quality is much better than I ever thought possible from local AM or FM stations. And, I thought that the possibility of new, varied programming channels might give satellite radio services a run for their money. I was amazed to receive a slew of poison pen (poison key?) e-mail telling me I didn’t know what I was talking about. That may be. But I think many of the satellite radio fans who wrote in missed my point."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10909934/

"Digital Garbage: Turning my FM radio into a novelty toaster"

"Why would you want to even tune in those small stations anyhow? Britney and Christina never sounded so good. HD Radio effectively pushes out all but strongest stations, eliminating weaker signals; "digital interference," or more aptly "digital censorship," will wipe out smaller cultural and educational stations. In addition, the digital processing will cause a delay in the broadcast. Live events, such as sports games and press conferences, would require a switch back to analog for real-time broadcasts. So much for the advantages of digital broadcasting, we lose diversity of content and are forced to revert back to analog technology for live events."

http://www.commonfrequency.org/HDradio.html

Looks like most people don't agree with you - hard to believe ! Oh, isn't there some little issue with the HD/IBOC delay during sports events ?

Oh yes, that's why I am considering dumping my DirecTV and not going to cable. As a matter of fact I am going to sell my house and move to the stadium parking lot because I can't stand the delay.

 

[clouseau]

"HD vs. satellite radio: Readers sound off: Which is more important — programming or sound quality?"

"Last month I told you how much I liked the Boston Acoustics HD Receptor, the first HD table radio to hit the market. I said the sound quality is much better than I ever thought possible from local AM or FM stations. And, I thought that the possibility of new, varied programming channels might give satellite radio services a run for their money. I was amazed to receive a slew of poison pen (poison key?) e-mail telling me I didn’t know what I was talking about. That may be. But I think many of the satellite radio fans who wrote in missed my point."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10909934/

Well I see you decided to leave the original topic alone. Wise choice. You looked REALLY BAD there. By the way, since I relatively sure you didin't read the topic diverter you posted, Thanks. The author is pretty positive about HD.

"Digital Garbage: Turning my FM radio into a novelty toaster"

"Why would you want to even tune in those small stations anyhow?

As has been shown here time and time again... this sentence should be...

"Why would you want to even tune in those Out of market DX stations anyhow?"

HD Radio effectively pushes out all but strongest stations, eliminating weaker signals; "digital interference," or more aptly "digital censorship," will wipe out smaller cultural and educational stations.

Got it. Two new offerings and Higher HD quality on the original is not as good as some out of market peanut whistle.

In addition, the digital processing will cause a delay in the broadcast. Live events, such as sports games and press conferences, would require a switch back to analog for real-time broadcasts.

The delay is not an issue. If it was, internet radio would be worthless for sports. And as you know it's not.

So much for the advantages of digital broadcasting, we lose diversity of content and are forced to revert back to analog technology for live events."

We trade DX for 3X's as many stations. Yeah THAT's a problem.

http://www.commonfrequency.org/HDradio.html

Looks like most people don't agree with you - hard to believe ! Oh, isn't there some little issue with the HD/IBOC delay during sports events ?

Got it. Common frequency.org = "Most people".
BTW check out their positions on some stuff. WOW...

Hey Anti HD folks... He's your team leader...

Clouseau

And now here comes ANOTHER irrelevent link...

 

[calstymes]

R.F. Burns expounded:

the commision never wrote anything about listening to stations outside of their protected contour.

Yup. We know that.

What is law is that these stations are afforded no protection from interference.

Do I detect that you are now willing to admit that HD in sidebands of an AM carrier MAY be responsible for causing interference to adjacent AM channels? Naw, that's not possible, is it?

What is so difficult about that to understand?

It is difficult for me (and no doubt several others) to understand why the FCC would permit a technology to be used on the AM broadcast band that DELIBERATELY introduces interference to adjacent channels. This is inconceivable to me and I think the public is getting a royal shafting.