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HD antenna question
- Thread starter jras20
- Start date
J
JasonW
Guest
That depends on how far away you are from the HD radio stations you wish to receive. A directional outdoor yagi FM antenna should work very well. If they're really close (a few kilometers), an indoor FM dipole may work just fine.For HD AM, a loop antenna or random wire antenna will increase the signal capture. These should be kept away from power lines both for safety and to prevent them from picking up electrical noise. -- Jasonjras20 said:
That depends on how far away you are from the HD radio stations you wish to receive. A directional outdoor yagi FM antenna should work very well. If they're really close (a few kilometers), an indoor FM dipole may work just fine.For HD AM, a loop antenna or random wire antenna will increase the signal capture. These should be kept away from power lines both for safety and to prevent them from picking up electrical noise. -- Jason [/quote]I got a outdoor Yagi works really well. I gues I should be set. now when are the home radios going to come out?
A
autopaint-1
Guest
Boston Acoustics has a 299$ HD dual clock/table radio. It's readilly available and sounds great. Once you try HD you'll hate going back to your regular radio. In NYC the HD 2 & 3 streams have formats otherwise unavailable on over the air radio.
1
1q2w3e
Guest
The Boston Acountics and the soon to come out Radiosophy both have an external antenna input. The Radiosophy even has a digtial output to go right into your present system. So you can use an external antenna with either.jras20 said:
I was thinking about getting the Radiosophy HD radio, but heres another question, I have another place thats about 86 miles from Houston. I know I can recieve the digital signals from my outdoor antenna out there, but would HD make it more clearer and better reception for in the car? I wonder if that would fix the radio reception out there, there is really about 3 stations that are in local out there the rest is in the fringe area. I just wish there was a majic way to make my truck radio pick up better out there unstead of a country station! (Not that I hate country, I just want to have a little more choice)
Re: HD antenna question-HD RADIO IS FOR PRIMARY COVERAGE AREA ONLY
HD Radio=Primary coverage only. No fringe HD Radio reception is claimed, even by the manufacturers. The transmitted power is one-one hundreth of the main analog station's signal.A 50,000 watt FM analog station is only allowed to transmit HD Radio at 500 watts. Not enough power for fringe area reception. If you can't get a very strong analog signal from the station, then you will probably not be able to reliably get HD Radio. :'(
HD Radio=Primary coverage only. No fringe HD Radio reception is claimed, even by the manufacturers. The transmitted power is one-one hundreth of the main analog station's signal.A 50,000 watt FM analog station is only allowed to transmit HD Radio at 500 watts. Not enough power for fringe area reception. If you can't get a very strong analog signal from the station, then you will probably not be able to reliably get HD Radio. :'(
N
Neal
Guest
OK after running some HD tests. I have come to the following This comment is Based on using a kenwood IBOC receiverand driving around listening to several NY,and PA HD stations we are talking AM HD and I am just averaging the Coverage. Not taking into accout Directional arrays and ERP.If you have a 50kw station seens you get 1 mile per Watt so at 50kw. You get about 50 miles of solid Coverage in any direction.on a 10 kw station. its about 10-15 miles before drop out.on a 5 kw station its about 5-7 miles..I have yet to come across a 1 kw AM station Running IBOC But looking at the above one can only assume that a 1 kw will Give1-3 miles of Solid locked HD reception.My answer to the Owners Of 1kw local stations who are thinking Of going HD... WHY BOTHER....
N
Neal
Guest
Re: HD antenna question-HD RADIO IS FOR PRIMARY COVERAGE AREA ONLY
actually on a 50kw station its closer to 5kw of HDon a 10kw station its about 1 kwon a 5kw station its 500 watts and on a 1 kw its about 100 watts
actually on a 50kw station its closer to 5kw of HDon a 10kw station its about 1 kwon a 5kw station its 500 watts and on a 1 kw its about 100 watts
SUPERCASTER said:
1
1q2w3e
Guest
Re: HD antenna question-HD RADIO IS FOR PRIMARY COVERAGE AREA ONLY
The mis informaiton about HD, even among engineers totally astounds me!HD signals are ONE PERCENT of the analog carrier power. 50kW ERP means 500 watts HD. 1kW means 10 watts HD. And so on. Some people may not be taking into consideration the injector losses if they are running high level combine. If high level combine, there is an 90% loss (intentionally). If you put in 2kW of HD, you end up with 1800 watts of reject, leaving 200 watts to the antenna. 5000 watts in would give 500 watts out to the antenna. Please note a difference between ERP and output to the antenna. Some of the calcuations do not include antenna gain. A typical 50kW (Class B) station runs around 20kW TPO. So the HD would have to be about 200 watts. Doing the math, the analog transmitter (assuming high level combine) would need to boost the analog output by 10% to 22000 watts TPO. The HD would need to be 2000 TPO. Past the combiner, the outputs would be equivalent to 20kW Analog, and 200 watts HD.BUT!!!! The relevance of HD power to analog does not correlate. Digital is far more efficient than analog. The example that has been given is cellphones. We used to use 3 watt analog cellphones. We now use 300 mW Digital phones. yet we have about the same coverage.Chicagos WJMK uses 4.1kW of analog power, therefore they would use 41 watts of HD. Yet they still cover 60+ miles of HD.The typical HD signal should cover B grade coverage. Anything beyond that coverage is considered "extra" coverage for analog by the FCC anyways.So for you whiners and mis-informers that continue to rail on the coverage, a PROPERLY DESIGNED SYSTEM will cover the intended area. Those stations not covering their intended area should look at their system. Our class "B"s cover 50+ miles with HD. Just as intended.Can we now stop this idiotic banter???just call me Ralph said:
Re: HD antenna question-Reply
I agree that the FM HD Digital effective radiated power is about 1 percent of licensed analog power.I disagree that the digital nature of the 1% HD signal results in a coverage area equal to the analog coverage. The reception problems and external antennas needed for dependable HD radio reception by many users prove the signal coverage is far from equal, and very much less. Many HD listeners report no necessity for an outside antenna for good analog FM reception, but an external antenna is necessary for good HD reception at the same location, on the same radio. This is not entirely the radio's fault. RF noise and multipath cause digital packets to be dropped, resulting in poor HD radio reception. This can not be solved by increasing HD radio sensitivity alone, as the interference is also amplified equally.Cell phone power was reduced because of EPA environmental limits to human RF exposure, and not because of equal coverage measurements. Cell phones are most commonly used against your head. RF exposure standards apply to human exposure near all transmitters including broadcast transmitters. I'm sure you know this, but other readers may be confused.Why are reported HD radio reception problems not suitable for discussion on the HD radio board?Just because you prefer to ignore them rather then solve them?That's a poor attitude for an engineer.
I agree that the FM HD Digital effective radiated power is about 1 percent of licensed analog power.I disagree that the digital nature of the 1% HD signal results in a coverage area equal to the analog coverage. The reception problems and external antennas needed for dependable HD radio reception by many users prove the signal coverage is far from equal, and very much less. Many HD listeners report no necessity for an outside antenna for good analog FM reception, but an external antenna is necessary for good HD reception at the same location, on the same radio. This is not entirely the radio's fault. RF noise and multipath cause digital packets to be dropped, resulting in poor HD radio reception. This can not be solved by increasing HD radio sensitivity alone, as the interference is also amplified equally.Cell phone power was reduced because of EPA environmental limits to human RF exposure, and not because of equal coverage measurements. Cell phones are most commonly used against your head. RF exposure standards apply to human exposure near all transmitters including broadcast transmitters. I'm sure you know this, but other readers may be confused.Why are reported HD radio reception problems not suitable for discussion on the HD radio board?Just because you prefer to ignore them rather then solve them?That's a poor attitude for an engineer.
A
autopaint-1
Guest
"Why are reported HD radio reception problems not suitable for discussion on the HD radio board?Just because you prefer to ignore them rather then solve them?That's a poor attitude for an engineer."Do you own an HD radio? The reception issues are those you've read and are repeating and not those you've experienced. I have owned my B.A. HD since February and it works really well. I live 25 miles from NYC and receive a solid signal on every NY area FM HD station without the use of an external antenna. I have switched to the supplied B.A. dipole and it I find that every analogue station that contains HD elements is easily received here with a solid signal. To those with faulty radios may I suggest sending them back to B.A. for repair.
I have switched to the supplied B.A. dipole and it I find that every analogue station that contains HD elements is easily received here with a solid signal.Why is BA supplying the new antenna and why add the new external antenna if it's not necessary for HD reception?The BA radio seems to work fine for analog FM without the new external antenna. Just not very well for HD radio.I'm sure your analog reception at 25 miles was just fine without the additional external antenna.Everyone does not have to be foolish enough to buy a Yugo to know it is a poor excuse for a car. That is why many depend on the advice and experience of others, and one of the main reasons bulletin boards such as this one exist.I don't have to go out and get AIDS to know it's bad for me. I learn from the experience of others.The cell phone example used previously is another attempt to mislead the public.We used to use 3 watt analog cellphones. We now use 300 mW Digital phones.That is a power ratio of 10 to 1 or 20 db, not 100 to 1, 40 db as FM HD radio. The other 20 db comes from the additional external antenna that Boston Acoustics has found it necessary to supply for free.I'm surprised as engineers you have not been able to figure this out, even without wasting money on an HD radio.Most of the new HD programs are available as internet streams, or over the new cell phone services. No need for a new HD radio.Neither the BA or the upcoming "Radiosophy" (reviewed in "Radio Guide" May, 2006 pg. 18) radios can be operated by battery anyway. They would not be useful in an emergency power outage. The review of the Radiosophy is decidely unimpressive. It seems not much better then the Boston Acoustics.
Re: HD antenna question-Revision
I was not permitted to correct and modify my previous post due to a computer problem.Here is the corrected version:I have switched to the supplied B.A. dipole and it I find that every analogue station that contains HD elements is easily received here with a solid signal.Why is BA supplying the new antenna and why add the new external antenna if it's not necessary for HD reception?The BA radio seems to work fine for analog FM without the new external antenna. Just not very well for HD radio.I'm sure your analog reception at 25 miles was just fine without the additional external antenna.Everyone does not have to be foolish enough to buy a Yugo to know it is a poor excuse for a car. That is why many depend on the advice and experience of others, and one of the main reasons bulletin boards such as this one exist.I don't have to go out and get AIDS to know it's bad for me. I learn from the experience of others. "Consumer Reports" and other websites and publications are very popular and useful.The cell phone example used previously is another attempt to mislead the public.We used to use 3 watt analog cellphones. We now use 300 mW Digital phones.That is a power ratio of 10 to 1, not 100 to 1, as with FM HD radio. The "extra" HD radio signal must come from the additional external antenna that Boston Acoustics has found it necessary to supply for free for HD radio users.I'm surprised as engineers you have not been able to figure this out, even without wasting money on an HD radio.Most of the new HD programs are available as internet streams, or over the new cell phone services. No need for a new HD radio.Neither the BA or the upcoming "Radiosophy" (reviewed in "Radio Guide" May, 2006 pg. 18) radios can be operated by battery anyway. They would not be useful in an emergency power outage. The review of the Radiosophy is decidely unimpressive. It seems not much better then the Boston Acoustics.
I was not permitted to correct and modify my previous post due to a computer problem.Here is the corrected version:I have switched to the supplied B.A. dipole and it I find that every analogue station that contains HD elements is easily received here with a solid signal.Why is BA supplying the new antenna and why add the new external antenna if it's not necessary for HD reception?The BA radio seems to work fine for analog FM without the new external antenna. Just not very well for HD radio.I'm sure your analog reception at 25 miles was just fine without the additional external antenna.Everyone does not have to be foolish enough to buy a Yugo to know it is a poor excuse for a car. That is why many depend on the advice and experience of others, and one of the main reasons bulletin boards such as this one exist.I don't have to go out and get AIDS to know it's bad for me. I learn from the experience of others. "Consumer Reports" and other websites and publications are very popular and useful.The cell phone example used previously is another attempt to mislead the public.We used to use 3 watt analog cellphones. We now use 300 mW Digital phones.That is a power ratio of 10 to 1, not 100 to 1, as with FM HD radio. The "extra" HD radio signal must come from the additional external antenna that Boston Acoustics has found it necessary to supply for free for HD radio users.I'm surprised as engineers you have not been able to figure this out, even without wasting money on an HD radio.Most of the new HD programs are available as internet streams, or over the new cell phone services. No need for a new HD radio.Neither the BA or the upcoming "Radiosophy" (reviewed in "Radio Guide" May, 2006 pg. 18) radios can be operated by battery anyway. They would not be useful in an emergency power outage. The review of the Radiosophy is decidely unimpressive. It seems not much better then the Boston Acoustics.
Oops. You used the equation to calculate decibel ratios for voltage or current (in the same Z). The power ratio is 1/2 of that. The ratio of analog to digital power in hybrid FM/HD systems really is 20 dB.The replacement (dipole) external antenna supplied by BA probably has more gain than the the antenna supplied with it originally, but it is very unlikely to have 20 dB more gain. As per standard antenna engineering textbooks, the difference in peak gain between an "infinitestimally short" linear antenna and a linear 1/2-wave dipole is less than 1 dB.RFSUPERCASTER said:
Re: HD antenna question-NPR Report-ADDITIONAL ANTENNA USUALLY NEEDED FOR HD
Thanks for catching my db error. I did repost the same without the db figures, when I realized my mistake.Now, if we could only get HD Radio supporters to do the same.Source information for my statements about the necessity of an external antenna for HD radio even when a more then adequate analog signal was present without the additional antenna:NPR Labs IBOC Field Service Bulletin No. 02.20060216, Feb. 16, 2006An article by Chriss Scherer about the tests are published in the supplimental insert "Insight to IBOC", Radio May, 2006That pretty much blows away all the wild claims by HD Radio supporters about signal parity for analog FM and HD coverage.
Thanks for catching my db error. I did repost the same without the db figures, when I realized my mistake.Now, if we could only get HD Radio supporters to do the same.Source information for my statements about the necessity of an external antenna for HD radio even when a more then adequate analog signal was present without the additional antenna:NPR Labs IBOC Field Service Bulletin No. 02.20060216, Feb. 16, 2006An article by Chriss Scherer about the tests are published in the supplimental insert "Insight to IBOC", Radio May, 2006That pretty much blows away all the wild claims by HD Radio supporters about signal parity for analog FM and HD coverage.
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autopaint-1
Guest
"The BA radio seems to work fine for analog FM without the new external antenna. Just not very well for HD radio."Where'd you get this from? The B.A., like many better radios needs an external antenna. There is no internal FM antenna. They don't use the line cord as an antenna with this radio. My component tuner uses an external antenna too, is that now suspect?"I'm sure your analog reception at 25 miles was just fine without the additional external antenna."I'm sure you are wrong. My Analogue and HD reception is about the same. Everything I can hear in analogue can be heard in HD if they are using an HD exciter."Everyone does not have to be foolish enough to buy a Yugo to know it is a poor excuse for a car. That is why many depend on the advice and experience of others, and one of the main reasons bulletin boards such as this one exist."How much time have you spent reviewing the Receptor? I've had mine since February and just the other day at our SBE meeting talked with a gentleman who owns one of the early 500$ B.A.'s and he tells me that his is fabulous. So where does that leave us? It seems there are construction issues with the B.A as opposed to design problemsI don't have to go out and get AIDS to know it's bad for me. I learn from the experience of others. "Consumer Reports" Ahh, Consumer Reports, that technical journal that gave a bad review to the Bose 901's. I'm no big fan of C.U."The "extra" HD radio signal must come from the additional external antenna that Boston Acoustics has found it necessary to supply for free for HD radio users."Most decent radios come with some form of antenna. The radio came with a single length of wire which obviously is not resonesnt on any FM freq. the dipole, simple as it is is cut for the FM broadcsat band. It even outperforms my rabbit ears because it is cut for the FM BCB. "I'm surprised as engineers you have not been able to figure this out, even without wasting money on an HD radio."Wasting money? I have mine by my bed and listen to it as I got ot sleep and when I wake up in the morning. I really enjoy the NY HD 2's I listen to and the sound of the Receptor is supurb. "Most of the new HD programs are available as internet streams, or over the new cell phone services. No need for a new HD radio."I don't own a cell phone. I can't stand cell phones. I am an extra class ham op and use either my HT's or mobile radios for emergencies."Neither the BA or the upcoming "Radiosophy" (reviewed in "Radio Guide" May, 2006 pg. 18) radios can be operated by battery anyway. They would not be useful in an emergency power outage. The review of the Radiosophy is decidely unimpressive. It seems not much better then the Boston Acoustics."My suggestion to is is save your money and don't buy one. I love mine and listen to it every night. See, we're both happy if we do that.
Source information for my statements about the necessity of an external antenna for HD radio even when a more then adequate analog signal was present without the additional antenna:NPR Labs IBOC Field Service Bulletin No. 02.20060216, Feb. 16, 2006An article by Chriss Scherer about the NPR tests are published in the supplimental insert "Insight to IBOC", Radio May, 2006That pretty much blows away all the wild claims by HD Radio supporters about signal parity for analog FM and HD coverage.Why are you suspicious of your component tuner?And of what?What do you think it is doing?What has your analog (I assume) component tuner's antenna got to do with HD Radio?Why blend back to analog when the HD signal dissappears?If the coverage for both is exactly the same (as you claim) then the analog signal also would disappear at the same time. The switching back and forth would not work. "Blending" is only possible and necessary because the coverages are plainly NOT THE SAME.Many like and trust "Consumer Reports" and cell phones. Sorry you don't.The BA has no internally connected antennas?You have no computer to listen to internet streams?Wow!
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