HD digital FM radio creates noise, interference and poor quality.

[k9ez]

Re: The MISimformation continues

> Thanks for the reception reports it will be interesting to
> see if anything is reported in these "in between" type areas
> in the future.
>


I am heading back to Chicago this week and then to detroit in 2 weeks. So I should be able to give a few more bits of information. Every time I drive I am looking for HD interferance, and have yet to come acorss it. Yes I do hear the HD hiss on teh side channels, but it has not caused any troubles yet.

 

[rbrucecarter]

Some REAL information!

Something else to look for - I am not the only one who is noticing analog coverage losses. The posts are coming in on the Yahoo FM tuner group - listeners all over the country are seeing MASSIVE coverage loss: 50 to 60 miles analog coverage on stations that go IBOC! I don't have a clue as to why that happenes - supposedly IBOC power is added, leaving the analog signal untouched. But the analog coverage losses are real, and happening on many stations as reported by listeners.

 

[k9ez]

MIS-information AGAIN!

> Something else to look for - I am not the only one who is
> noticing analog coverage losses. The posts are coming in on
> the Yahoo FM tuner group - listeners all over the country
> are seeing MASSIVE coverage loss: 50 to 60 miles analog
> coverage on stations that go IBOC! I don't have a clue as
> to why that happenes - supposedly IBOC power is added,
> leaving the analog signal untouched. But the analog
> coverage losses are real, and happening on many stations as
> reported by listeners.
>


Bruce,

BS!!!!!!!!!!!

This is not real information... just a bunch of peopele that THINK that the coverage is reduced.

You have tried this before. I still see no REAL PROOF (read that as MEASUREMENTS) that this is happening! As a matter of fact as long as an HD system is set up properly, there is NO WAY that an analog signal can be reduced! The ONLY WAY that it can happen is through combiner losses, and that is a matter of designing the plant properly. There is no change to the analog signal. And if the engineer didnt take the combiner into consideration, it is only a 10% drop in wattage output from the transmitter. That is not a whole lot of power folks! I ran one of our HD stations with the lower power and we didnt have one complaint. I did testing of our signal and we didnt have any loss of coverage.

I have traveled across soem of this nation. I have not noticed one instance of analog coverage being reduced. Read that again... NONE! I have been looking for it too.

Why do you insist on passing mis-informaiton? I asked you before, and I will ask you again... do you really know how an HD transmitting system works? Are you aware that 99% of the time there are sperate analog and HD transmitters and that they are combined into the same antenna? Why not show us REAL FACTS? I am waiting!

 

[rbrucecarter]

Re: MIS-information AGAIN!

Just drive the same drive I did. If you can get KLDE in Centerville, then we'll talk. No its not field measurements - I don't have a portable instrument and the one I have requires AC power and I don't as a rule take it on family vacations. I also didn't expect for a station to suddenly lose 60 miles of coverage. They did not conveniently tell me "measure field strengths this trip down I-45 because we are going to go IBOC shortly and we want before and after numbers". I hear of the next station going HD here, I'll take some numbers for you.

But for you to tell me that I am posting mis-information because I have observed - under reasonably controlled conditions - a loss of coverage is BS!!!!
And what about the other reasonably qualified people who have posted about coverage losses on other stations. You going to insult them, too?!

 

[k9ez]

Re: MIS-information AGAIN!

> Just drive the same drive I did. If you can get KLDE in
> Centerville, then we'll talk. No its not field measurements
> - I don't have a portable instrument and the one I have
> requires AC power and I don't as a rule take it on family
> vacations. I also didn't expect for a station to suddenly
> lose 60 miles of coverage. They did not conveniently tell
> me "measure field strengths this trip down I-45 because we
> are going to go IBOC shortly and we want before and after
> numbers". I hear of the next station going HD here, I'll
> take some numbers for you.
>
> But for you to tell me that I am posting mis-information
> because I have observed - under reasonably controlled
> conditions - a loss of coverage is BS!!!!
> And what about the other reasonably qualified people who
> have posted about coverage losses on other stations. You
> going to insult them, too?!
>


YUP because it is BS. I have witnessed over 30 stations with HD and not one has lost analog coverage. Kind of pales compared to your one, no? Perhaps your ONE is having antenna or transmitter issues.

Have a nice day.

 

[taylorengineer]

Re: K9ez is RIGHT!!!

> > Just drive the same drive I did. If you can get KLDE in
> > Centerville, then we'll talk. No its not field
> measurements
> > - I don't have a portable instrument and the one I have
> > requires AC power and I don't as a rule take it on family
> > vacations. I also didn't expect for a station to suddenly
>
> > lose 60 miles of coverage. They did not conveniently tell
>
> > me "measure field strengths this trip down I-45 because we
>
> > are going to go IBOC shortly and we want before and after
> > numbers". I hear of the next station going HD here, I'll
> > take some numbers for you.
> >
> > But for you to tell me that I am posting mis-information
> > because I have observed - under reasonably controlled
> > conditions - a loss of coverage is BS!!!!
> > And what about the other reasonably qualified people who
> > have posted about coverage losses on other stations. You
> > going to insult them, too?!
> >
>
>
> YUP because it is BS. I have witnessed over 30 stations
> with HD and not one has lost analog coverage. Kind of pales
> compared to your one, no? Perhaps your ONE is having
> antenna or transmitter issues.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
Common' guys.....many of us are broadcast engineers and we bristle when people start offering subjective observations.....
Bruce, Rich et al....show me the MATH!!! Stop all this silly "I drove the signal and it sucked" garbage. PROVE to the engineering community, through objective measurements and math, how IBOC limits coverage, or exceeds the FCC allotted channel.
I realize IBOC IS PROBLEMATIC....but, hysterics and casual observations prove nothing.Just like Rich "proving" IBOC causes 400 KHZ occupied bandwith.....I want to see a single station, running IBOC, with emissions outside the 200Khz channel. Not the output of a freakin' receiver....not 3 stations mixing together...a controlled, repeatable, reliable test of occupied spectrum by ONE station running IBOC.
Can anyone objectively prove that IBOC degrades analog coverage or exceeds FCC rules on spectrum ?
Can we, at the very least, have a rational discussion?

 

[k9ez]

Re: K9ez is RIGHT!!!

> > > Just drive the same drive I did. If you can get KLDE in
>
> > > Centerville, then we'll talk. No its not field
> > measurements
> > > - I don't have a portable instrument and the one I have
> > > requires AC power and I don't as a rule take it on
> family
> > > vacations. I also didn't expect for a station to
> suddenly
> >
> > > lose 60 miles of coverage. They did not conveniently
> tell
> >
> > > me "measure field strengths this trip down I-45 because
> we
> >
> > > are going to go IBOC shortly and we want before and
> after
> > > numbers". I hear of the next station going HD here,
> I'll
> > > take some numbers for you.
> > >
> > > But for you to tell me that I am posting mis-information
>
> > > because I have observed - under reasonably controlled
> > > conditions - a loss of coverage is BS!!!!
> > > And what about the other reasonably qualified people who
>
> > > have posted about coverage losses on other stations.
> You
> > > going to insult them, too?!
> > >
> >
> >
> > YUP because it is BS. I have witnessed over 30 stations
> > with HD and not one has lost analog coverage. Kind of
> pales
> > compared to your one, no? Perhaps your ONE is having
> > antenna or transmitter issues.
> >
> > Have a nice day.
> >
> Common' guys.....many of us are broadcast engineers and we
> bristle when people start offering subjective
> observations.....
> Bruce, Rich et al....show me the MATH!!! Stop all this silly
> "I drove the signal and it sucked" garbage. PROVE to the
> engineering community, through objective measurements and
> math, how IBOC limits coverage, or exceeds the FCC allotted
> channel.
> I realize IBOC IS PROBLEMATIC....but, hysterics and casual
> observations prove nothing.Just like Rich "proving" IBOC
> causes 400 KHZ occupied bandwith.....I want to see a single
> station, running IBOC, with emissions outside the 200Khz
> channel. Not the output of a freakin' receiver....not 3
> stations mixing together...a controlled, repeatable,
> reliable test of occupied spectrum by ONE station running
> IBOC.
> Can anyone objectively prove that IBOC degrades analog
> coverage or exceeds FCC rules on spectrum ?
> Can we, at the very least, have a rational discussion?
>

If people would undestand how HD is transmitted they would realize that there is no way, in a properly set up transmitting plant, that an analog signal could be diminished. I stated to people to get educated, ask questions... not make obsurd assumptions or statements!

ASK QUESTIONS FOLKS! I am sure that there are many of us engineering nerds willing to answer them!

 

[RadioDoc]

Re: K9ez is RIGHT!!!

A second to the motion from me.

K9EZ is correct. I have not heard of a single case of this happening. Our company has fired up several HD signals - I've done two personally. There has been no loss at all, and I can back that up with solid proof.

Bruce, all I ask is that you prove it. With solid facts. Not "he said, and I heard, etc.". Solid facts.

IBOC can do many things, except violate the laws of physics. <P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[_Jim]

Por favor; I have a simple question

> >
> Do/can you understand what I am asking of you?
> Please do NOT post YOUR blog as a response to my challenge.
> And the spec display does not satisfy my request so please
> stop repeating yourself on that.
> Occupation of 400 khz IS A VIOLATION OF FCC RULES AND REGS.
> HOW LOUD DO I HAVE TO SHOUT THIS IN YOUR EAR?????
> If this were true, and the examples you keep providing DO
> NOT prove this, why would the FCC allow it?
> Show me ONE STATION, running IBOC correctly,without OTHER
> stations in the mix, on a spectrum analyzer display,
> exceeding the 200 Khz FM channel allottment.
> My guess is, you can't provide ANY proof!
>

Now, I have to ask you, do you see two, three, or four
major divisions occupied by the station centered here
on the screen:

 

[_Jim]

That last web site he cited worked out the degraded S/N ratio

... of the post detected/recovered FM signal, with IBOC sidebands present, as stated here:

<blockquote>
S/N in the upper 40s or low 50s yields audible background noise in a home environment.

This level of noise is more audible than the surface noise of high-quality vinyl.

What really hurts is knowing that the stereo S/N of some high-quality tuners is in the 80s. Thus S/N may degrade 30-40 dB when you listen to a signal with HD Radio sidebands.
</blockquote>

Link: users.tns.net/~bb/iboc.htm

 

[_Jim]

Re: Conclusion reached....

<blockquote>
> 1. Deregulation of ownership and the overturning of
> the Fairness Doctrine, both under Ronnie Reagan already
> has driven (nearly) the entire audience away and into
> the arms of the greedy music industry.
</blockquote>

Better to term that the 'PC' or 'don't you DARE offend anyone'
doctrine!

Those changes were necessary; we would have held the
requium for AM radio ten years ago HAD it not been
for some badly needed changes, changes toward more
open and unresticted content and fewer threats and
controls from Washington, Congress, and the FCC (I
would ask you WHAT the true meaning of 'free speech'
is but this is not the place for that discussion).


FEEL your viewpoint isn't being heard? Petition one of
the Err America hosts and becoome a guest, or buy weekly
infomercial airtime on a regular broadcaster or do what
Alex Jones does: buy a regular set of hours a week on a
Shortwave brodcaster and it'll only cost you on the order
of fifty bucks an hour and NO worry about liense renewal
or infrastructure costs!


<blockquote>
> 2. The Telecommunications Reform Act of 1996 is what really
> broke the back of Mom and Pop radio in the U.S. Further
> deregulation of ownership limitations were already
</blockquote>


Gee, under, uhhhh .... who, I wonder who was in power
during that time (AND remember under Reagan we had a
democratic congress, but I digress).

 

[taylorengineer]

Let me clarify the question.

> > >
> > Do/can you understand what I am asking of you?
> > Please do NOT post YOUR blog as a response to my
> challenge.
> > And the spec display does not satisfy my request so please
>
> > stop repeating yourself on that.
> > Occupation of 400 khz IS A VIOLATION OF FCC RULES AND
> REGS.
> > HOW LOUD DO I HAVE TO SHOUT THIS IN YOUR EAR?????
> > If this were true, and the examples you keep providing DO
> > NOT prove this, why would the FCC allow it?
> > Show me ONE STATION, running IBOC correctly,without OTHER
> > stations in the mix, on a spectrum analyzer display,
> > exceeding the 200 Khz FM channel allottment.
> > My guess is, you can't provide ANY proof!
> >
>
> Now, I have to ask you, do you see two, three, or four
> major divisions occupied by the station centered here
> on the screen:
>
Jim, That is NOT the question!!
How many STATIONS DO YOU SEE on this spectral display? It's more than one.....do you agree?
One station....running IBOC.... measured from the PA RF sample with a spectrum analyzer. Prove that IBOC exceeds the 200 Khz mask. Simple as that.