HD /FMXTRA NEWS AT NAB

[mgpt6]

Has there been any news about HD or FMXtra at the NAB Show in Las Vegas? Did Telos show off 5.1 surround at NAB?

 

[Chuck]

Has there been any news about HD or FMXtra at the NAB Show in Las Vegas? Did Telos show off 5.1 surround at NAB?

BEXT had a pretty good display of FMExtra stuff, and Arianne was showing how well their processor worked on FMExtra too. (It did sound good). I think Armstrong had something on display as well. Other than that, there wasn't much going on that I noticed. For that matter, I didn't see much HD hoopla either. Things seemed fairly subdued. There was a Radiosophy HD radio on display at the Radio Guide Magazine booth. It sounded reasonably good considering it was running through its built in small speakers (no headphones anywhere in sight), but I gotta say, it looks really cheap... I’ve seen nicer looking radios at Wal-Mart for well under $19.99. Yeah, yeah, I know it’s all about technology, not looks….

The Radio-Guide folks Barry (Mishkind and Ray Topp) had one of the HD radios at their annual engineering’s luncheon for a door prize. It was a very interesting gathering of various radio-engineering legends like Bob Orban, Frank Foti and a bunch of people who are industry movers and shakers. It was fun attending. The group seemed fairly evenly divided about HD. The guys who make processing and transmitters like HD it because it is a new market for them with a potential for future growth. After all, you have to sell new equipment to someone. The guys who were sitting at my table didn’t seem to be so enthusiastic. They were station engineers. One guy put it, "HD is a science project that's looking for the Science Fair."

 

[R.F. Burns]

Has there been any news about HD or FMXtra at the NAB Show in Las Vegas? Did Telos show off 5.1 surround at NAB?

BEXT had a pretty good display of FMExtra stuff, and Arianne was showing how well their processor worked on FMExtra too. (It did sound good). I think Armstrong had something on display as well. Other than that, there wasn't much going on that I noticed. For that matter, I didn't see much HD hoopla either. Things seemed fairly subdued. There was a Radiosophy HD radio on display at the Radio Guide Magazine booth. It sounded reasonably good considering it was running through its built in small speakers (no headphones anywhere in sight), but I gotta say, it looks really cheap... I’ve seen nicer looking radios at Wal-Mart for well under $19.99. Yeah, yeah, I know it’s all about technology, not looks….

The Radio-Guide folks Barry (Mishkind and Ray Topp) had one of the HD radios at their annual engineering’s luncheon for a door prize. It was a very interesting gathering of various radio-engineering legends like Bob Orban, Frank Foti and a bunch of people who are industry movers and shakers. It was fun attending. The group seemed fairly evenly divided about HD. The guys who make processing and transmitters like HD it because it is a new market for them with a potential for future growth. After all, you have to sell new equipment to someone. The guys who were sitting at my table didn’t seem to be so enthusiastic. They were station engineers. One guy put it, "HD is a science project that's looking for the Science Fair."

What kind of engineers are they? Do they work for small, medium of large market stations? Have they installed an IBOC exciter? Just to call them engineers gives them no credibility without more information. HD in NY is a big success from a technological viewpoint. Our stations are very well engineered and provided all sorts of new formats for the audience.

 

[Chuck]

What kind of engineers are they? Do they work for small, medium of large market stations? Have they installed an IBOC exciter? Just to call them engineers gives them no credibility without more information. HD in NY is a big success from a technological viewpoint. Our stations are very well engineered and provided all sorts of new formats for the audience.

One was the CE for a cluster in Las Vegas who is running HD. Another was the inventor of some fairly major broadcast technology. He sold his business out a few years ago to a much bigger fish for in excess of $30 million. I think his pay check is much bigger than your or mine...

This was a fairly heavy-weight gathering, worthy of respect.

 

[vsa]

Chuck wrote: "BEXT had a pretty good display of FMExtra stuff, and Arianne was showing how well their processor worked on FMExtra too.  (It did sound good).  I think Armstrong had something on display as well."

The BEXT exhibit also held hourly drawings for free FMeXtra radios and one lucky winner won the whole encoding package. Another exhibit also had several FMeXtra radios on display. Chuck, we may have walked right past each other. Sorry I missed you!

Bridge Ratings has been quoted often in the HD Radio area of this website. I had the good fortune to chat with its president Dave Van Dyke who, surprisingly to me, seemed equally pleased to meet me there. Radio is a relatively small business and it's nice to shake hands and converse with people we often only read or hear about.

 

[PocketRadio]

Has there been any news about HD or FMXtra at the NAB Show in Las Vegas? Did Telos show off 5.1 surround at NAB?

"Slacker.com: The radio revolution arrives this summer" Options"

"This has been going to be "the year for HD" for the past several years.
So far, it has been nothing more than the usual [EDIT] in Las
Vegas. I hear that iBiguity had a big display...but nothing actually
worked! What would happen if they came out with a "revolutionary new
technology"...and everyone fell asleep?"

http://tinyurl.com/2u3vmk

Yea !


[EDIT-vulgar]

 

[R.F. Burns]

What kind of engineers are they? Do they work for small, medium of large market stations? Have they installed an IBOC exciter? Just to call them engineers gives them no credibility without more information. HD in NY is a big success from a technological viewpoint. Our stations are very well engineered and provided all sorts of new formats for the audience.

One was the CE for a cluster in Las Vegas who is running HD. Another was the inventor of some fairly major broadcast technology. He sold his business out a few years ago to a much bigger fish for in excess of $30 million. I think his pay check is much bigger than your or mine...

This was a fairly heavy-weight gathering, worthy of respect.

While there are plenty of people earning more than either of us that doesn't have any relationship to whether HD is good or bad. We're talking opinions here. However, even with the nearly 50 K my wife and I paid in taxes we do have for a nice lifestyle.

 

[Chuck]

While there are plenty of people earning more than either of us that doesn't have any relationship to whether HD is good or bad. We're talking opinions here. However, even with the nearly 50 K my wife and I paid in taxes we do have for a nice lifestyle.

I have a nice lifestyle too.

I suspect that quite a few people at the luncheon were doing quite well also. They are entitled to there opinions as well, even if they don't express them on this forum. These were radio-engineering professionals. I mean that in every sense of the word. I was humbled by some of the legends I met. Most of them have been in and around broadcasting for their entire careers. You make them sound like their previous employment was changing oil at Jiffy Lube. I assure you this was a room full of VERY competent engineers.

As I said, the group was fairly evenly divided. What struck me the most was the lack of religious fervor that I had detected in the past. The pro-HD group seemed mostly to be people who had something to sell. Even they were pretty quiet about it. The anti-HD group seemed more like "in the trenches" engineers, many of them from AM stations. The guys in the middle were currently running HD stations, and were doing whatever it took to get the job done. At least, they had the opportunity to upgrade their facilities as a result of HD, and that is not a bad thing.

 

[clouseau]

Has there been any news about HD or FMXtra at the NAB Show in Las Vegas? Did Telos show off 5.1 surround at NAB?

And the response to what is at the show is a link to an Ipod Playlist updater.

"Slacker.com: The radio revolution arrives this summer" Options"

"This has been going to be "the year for HD" for the past several years.
So far, it has been nothing more than the usual [EDIT] in Las
Vegas. I hear that iBiguity had a big display...but nothing actually
worked! What would happen if they came out with a "revolutionary new
technology"...and everyone fell asleep?"

http://tinyurl.com/2u3vmk

Yea !

[EDIT-vulgar]

Did it ever occur to you that this was directed to people at the show and not to people who "Tried an HD radio in an electronics store" once?

It's not my place, but I just have to point out... How about if you exclude your SPAMMING links about "IPOD playlist updaters" and your "5th grade '[EDIT]' humor" from discussion of the show's content. I am assuming you were NOT there. And no, just because you saw a picture of the last year's show or talked to someone who was there does not qualify you to comment on it. Or were you "AT" the "[EDIT]" you alledge?

Clouseau


[EDIT-quoted remark removed in original post]

 

[PhilJSmith67]

Oh yeah, tinyurl.com... that always leads to a credible source ???

 

[Chuck]

The BEXT exhibit also held hourly drawings for free FMeXtra radios and one lucky winner won the whole encoding package. Another exhibit also had several FMeXtra radios on display. Chuck, we may have walked right past each other. Sorry I missed you!

I'm sorry I missed you too. I'm even more bummed that I didn't win one of the radios.

 

[calstymes]

Chuck informed us that:

The guys who were sitting at my table didn’t seem to be so enthusiastic. They were station engineers. One guy put it, "HD is a science project that's looking for the Science Fair."

That is put quite well, actually. It is somewhat similar to the "solution looking for a problem" syndrome, eh?

To which R.F. Burns queried:

What kind of engineers are they? Do they work for small, medium of large market stations? Have they installed an IBOC exciter?

Have you?

Just to call them engineers gives them no credibility without more information.

Of course not! We need proof!

HD in NY is a big success from a technological viewpoint. Our stations are very well engineered and provided all sorts of new formats for the audience.

Perhaps HD on FM has done just that and it is the greatest thing since radio was first invented. But what about the AM side? I don't hear you saying anything about that except that your opinion is that HD will insure AM's viability into the future (we will have music formats on AM and all sorts of things that will get people interested in listening to AM radio again).

To which Chuck further replied:

One was the CE for a cluster in Las Vegas who is running HD. Another was the inventor of some fairly major broadcast technology. He sold his business out a few years ago to a much bigger fish for in excess of $30 million. I think his pay check is much bigger than your or mine...

This was a fairly heavy-weight gathering, worthy of respect.

I have no personal doubt that it was. There are some pretty big "heavyweights" who go out the NAB show.

To which R.F. further injected:

While there are plenty of people earning more than either of us that doesn't have any relationship to whether HD is good or bad.

Now wait! YOU asked for proof who they were, then when Chuck gives out some more information, you immediately discount it as being irrelevant. Why am I not surprised?

We're talking opinions here. However, even with the nearly 50 K my wife and I paid in taxes we do have for a nice lifestyle.

Dang! I'm in the wrong business! I need a job in the #1 broadcast market too! Is it hard to get a job where you are?

Chuck then clarified:

I suspect that quite a few people at the luncheon were doing quite well also. They are entitled to there opinions as well, even if they don't express them on this forum. These were radio-engineering professionals. I mean that in every sense of the word. I was humbled by some of the legends I met. Most of them have been in and around broadcasting for their entire careers. You make them sound like their previous employment was changing oil at Jiffy Lube. I assure you this was a room full of VERY competent engineers.

And it's too bad you couldn't get some of them to come on here, identify themselves and then go on the record in this here forum to say what they think. But I know why they won't even if you were to ask them to do that.

As I said, the group was fairly evenly divided. What struck me the most was the lack of religious fervor that I had detected in the past. The pro-HD group seemed mostly to be people who had something to sell. Even they were pretty quiet about it. The anti-HD group seemed more like "in the trenches" engineers, many of them from AM stations. The guys in the middle were currently running HD stations, and were doing whatever it took to get the job done. At least, they had the opportunity to upgrade their facilities as a result of HD, and that is not a bad thing.

Knowing what little I do, I would suggest that this is probably a very accurate description of what Chuck encountered at the NAB. I know that if these "engineers" don't express the same opinion that R.F. has, he gets very upset and questions their credentials.

I'll tell ya what, R.F. I'm gonna go out on a limb here. You talk about what a great success is HD in NY is (from a technological viewpoint). I challenge you to use your considerable influence (by virtue of your profession and the large number of people with whom you are undoubtedly acquainted) and get your friends in the SBE who are engineers at these stations which have implemented AM IBOC to come on here and tell the truth about what they really think about this technology. And even if they aren't in the SBE, that's ok too. Bring them on here. I can probably guarantee that you will get not a single one, except perhaps for the CE of WOR (if he is willing to do a favor for you), who is both an excellent engineer and has been known to post on these sorts of forums and express agreement with his employer's position on AM IBOC.

I hope everyone here remembers the request I have made today. No doubt, R.F. will ignore me, but that's ok. But if this AM IBOC technology is as good as the HD Alliance and iBiQuity would have you believe it is, then surely there will be some engineer in the #1 broadcasting market who works for an AM station that has installed an IBOC exciter who would be willing to come on here and tell all of us radio geeks that it is everything they say it is.

 

[radiopilot]

Dang! I'm in the wrong business! I need a job in the #1 broadcast market too! Is it hard to get a job where you are?

What?... How do you know that RFBurn's wife didn't make the bulk of the money? These guys don't make tons of money in the radio buisness... we all know that unless you are an 'On air jock' and it better be a good one... as far as engineering staff salaries... show me one and prove it that makes more than 125k a year... according to Radio Magazine survey for radio engineering salaries they're not that great!

The fact is if you do look at all the products for HD to the consumer outside of the auto radios, these items look cheap and are made of cheap components made to maximize the profits... savvy consumers are quick to dismiss such cheap products...

Radiopilot

 

[R.F. Burns]

"What kind of engineers are they? Do they work for small, medium of large market stations? Have they installed an IBOC exciter?
[/quote]

Have you?"


While I don't work for a local radio station and have not installed an HD exciter, I have worked in NYC radio at the network level as an engineer for 30 years. My experience is known by you. The question isn't my experience, it's what these anti IBOC people bring to the table. MY experienbce is strictly as a listener who is pleased with his HD radios.




"Just to call them engineers gives them no credibility without more information.
[/quote]

Of course not! We need proof!"


Well my sarcastic "friend" When someone makes a definitive statement proof of credibiliuty is usually required.


"HD in NY is a big success from a technological viewpoint. Our stations are very well engineered and provided all sorts of new formats for the audience.
[/quote]

Perhaps HD on FM has done just that and it is the greatest thing since radio was first invented. But what about the AM side? I don't hear you saying anything about that except that your opinion is that HD will insure AM's viability into the future (we will have music formats on AM and all sorts of things that will get people interested in listening to AM radio again)."



WOR, WFAN, WABC, WCBS are all running Iboc exciters WHat I said is that IBOC gives AM a fighting chance. Anyone in the industry who works for a major market station is aware of just what is happening to the demographic makeup of AM radio.

"To which Chuck further replied:

One was the CE for a cluster in Las Vegas who is running HD. Another was the inventor of some fairly major broadcast technology. He sold his business out a few years ago to a much bigger fish for in excess of $30 million. I think his pay check is much bigger than your or mine...

This was a fairly heavy-weight gathering, worthy of respect.

I have no personal doubt that it was. There are some pretty big "heavyweights" who go out the NAB show.

To which R.F. further injected:

While there are plenty of people earning more than either of us that doesn't have any relationship to whether HD is good or bad.

Now wait! YOU asked for proof who they were, then when Chuck gives out some more information, you immediately discount it as being irrelevant. Why am I not surprised?"


I could say the same of you. I asked a question, Chuck answered. I know quite a few of the local NY engineers who have installed IBOC systems for their statons both AM & FM and improvements have been made to the system. As you feel that IBOC is a creation of power hungyry businessmen, I see it as a promising new technology. I've posted my demonstation recordings. You can see that my experiences have been positive. What conclusion should I draw from my tests?


"We're talking opinions here. However, even with the nearly 50 K my wife and I paid in taxes we do have for a nice lifestyle.
[/quote]

Dang! I'm in the wrong business! I need a job in the #1 broadcast market too! Is it hard to get a job where you are?"
'

Get some experience. I have had a successful career working in major market radio for most of my life. You want to work where I work, send a resume'.

"I suspect that quite a few people at the luncheon were doing quite well also. They are entitled to there opinions as well, even if they don't express them on this forum. These were radio-engineering professionals. I mean that in every sense of the word. I was humbled by some of the legends I met. Most of them have been in and around broadcasting for their entire careers. You make them sound like their previous employment was changing oil at Jiffy Lube. I assure you this was a room full of VERY competent engineers.
[/quote]

And it's too bad you couldn't get some of them to come on here, identify themselves and then go on the record in this here forum to say what they think. But I know why they won't even if you were to ask them to do that."


I've talked with some friends about these sites and they have all said, why bother. As you say the answer to one of the people who posts here under different names is to not anser him. I would probably be better off just walking away too. I have nothing to defend. Iboc will go ahead and the frustration of the anti group in here will just build. Consider my involvement in here a character flaw.


"Knowing what little I do, I would suggest that this is probably a very accurate description of what Chuck encountered at the NAB. I know that if these "engineers" don't express the same opinion that R.F. has, he gets very upset and questions their credentials."

You know from one of the other boards an engineer who's initials are T.R. He has years of experience with Iboc when it was just an experimental technology. I'm not upset but while I enjoy the challenge of debate in here, you can't change the closed minds which many Anti IBOC people in here have.

 

[PocketRadio]

Oh yeah, tinyurl.com... that always leads to a credible source ???

"TinyURL.com"

"Making long URLs usable! More than 34 million of them. Over 890 million hits/month. Are you sick of posting URLs in emails only to have it break when sent causing the recipient to have to cut and paste it back together? Then you've come to the right place. By entering in a URL in the text field below, we will create a tiny URL that will not break in email postings and never expires."

http://tinyurl.com/

That was an educated response, Philip !

 

[davideduardo]

Perhaps HD on FM has done just that and it is the greatest thing since radio was first invented. But what about the AM side? I don't hear you saying anything about that except that your opinion is that HD will insure AM's viability into the future (we will have music formats on AM and all sorts of things that will get people interested in listening to AM radio again).

AM is rapidly losing the last of its sales demo audience because people under 45 or 50 do not like listening to analog AM. Yet when "AM" formats like news / talk or all-news are moved to FM, in the same market, the 35-54 audience increases enormously.

The only chance the decent AM facilities (less than 300 in the top 100 markets) have of survival is to improve the quality via HD. Otherwise, the AM formats that work will move to FM and the entire band will die.

 

[PocketRadio]

Perhaps HD on FM has done just that and it is the greatest thing since radio was first invented. But what about the AM side? I don't hear you saying anything about that except that your opinion is that HD will insure AM's viability into the future (we will have music formats on AM and all sorts of things that will get people interested in listening to AM radio again).

AM is rapidly losing the last of its sales demo audience because people under 45 or 50 do not like listening to analog AM. Yet when "AM" formats like news / talk or all-news are moved to FM, in the same market, the 35-54 audience increases enormously.

The only chance the decent AM facilities (less than 300 in the top 100 markets) have of survival is to improve the quality via HD. Otherwise, the AM formats that work will move to FM and the entire band will die.

"50,000-Watt AM stations"

http://www.northpine.com/broadcast/50kwam.html

"Arbitron Ratings Data"

http://www.arbitron.com/home/ratings.htm

"RW Opinion: Rethinking AM’s future"

"Only 175 or so AM stations have even licensed AM-HD. For a number of reasons, quite a few have tried it and taken it off the air, or so the anecdotal evidence suggests. (Ibiquity no longer reports in its public summaries whether a station is on the air.) Making AM-HD work well as a long-term investment is seen as an expensive and risky challenge for most stations and their owners. With the bulk of successful AMs airing news, talk and sports, the improved fidelity advantage of HD and stereo seem only marginally attractive. There is the significant downside of potential new interference to some of their own AM analog listeners as well as listeners of adjacent-channel stations. And of course we still have no nighttime authority for AM-HD."

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0044/t.557.html

"Flat Industry Growth Hurts Radio One"

"The radio industry's growth has been stagnant for years, and Radio One executives said the company's profit is being eaten into by new technology, such as Internet and satellite radio."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/04/AR2006050401844.html

Many of the 50KW AM stations are ranked #1, while others are in the top-5. The youngest baby-boomers are now about 50, so AM radio, with its highly-successful news/talk/sports formats have many years left. Surely, new formats will be created, if any of the Gen Y are interested, which they currently are not. Growth has been stagnant for the radio industry for the past 6 years - it is not just AM. No doubt, the death of AM will be accelerated by the reduced coverage and adjacent-channel interference caused by HD/IBOC.

 

[Mike Walker]

Any medium whose youngest listeners are 50 doesn't have "many years" left. It's dying, as are it's listeners! If the youngest are in their 50s, the oldest are in their 60s. Which means in a decade they'll either be in their 70s, or dead. We all have an expiration date. The average lifespan of the male of the species is 74. IF the youngest AM listeners are 50 (which I don't believe...there are lots of younger listeners for right-wing talk and sports stations), then death looms large on the horizon!

AM stations haven't converted to HD in large numbers because they can't operate at night (duh), and there are still interference concerns, and concerns about reduced audio quality for existing listeners with 5khz bandwidth! VALID concerns!

A powerful argument can be made for FMExtra. Drop the thing in the rack, hook it up, and BANG, you're digital. No new transmitters, no new towers, no expensive combiner/doo-hickeys, no checks to Ibiquity. Small stations can actually afford it. A trained monkey can install it. And it WORKS. Naturally it doesn't have a chance. HD has already won this battle. And HD WORKS WELL. It's much more (too!) complex, but it does work. Hell, if someone made a combination FMExtra/HD radio, and anyone near me actually broadcast with FMExtra (a huge if!), I'd buy it. I WILL NOT, however, buy a radio when there's nothing (at my location) to listen to on it.

 

[Chuck]

Hell, if someone made a combination FMExtra/HD radio, and anyone near me actually broadcast with FMExtra (a huge if!), I'd buy it. I WILL NOT, however, buy a radio when there's nothing (at my location) to listen to on it.

I suspect you will see a combination radio in the not too distant future. It is also possible that FMExtra may eventually replace conventional SCA activities. It has a lot of advantages for that, including the ability to make the receivers addressable. Your security factor goes up exponentially over conventional analog SCA, where anyone can buy a decoder.

You'll note that the current version of the radio has a memory card reader slot on the front. It's not there so you can play MP3's through the radio. It is there so it can be quickly and easily programmed to be addressable. As I mentioned in another post, the real financial benefit from digital radio is to use the additional digital streams for whatever makes money. That may be secondary audio programming, but it may just as well be different data streams. The LCD screen on the current FMExtra receiver can display text and graphics, but the next version will have the ability to display color pictures.

What does that mean? Well, your guess is as good as mine, but it does open up a lot of possibilities for things we haven’t even thought up as yet. I'll bet that HD has similar capabilities too. (If it doesn't, broadcasters really have been sold a bill of goods). In any case, I wouldn't get too used to those “all music all the time” secondary channels. Certainly some stations will use it for that purpose. In fact, that was the whole point of NPR's "Tomorrow Radio" project, but many stations may have other revenue generating ideas.

By the way, for those who doubt the capability of the 100 or so people who attended the Radio-Guide luncheon, I'm fairly sure I was one of the very few who did not have full SBE Certification. I make no claims to being an engineer, although I'm still pretty handy with a soldering iron. There weren't very many "slackers" in the group.

 

[PocketRadio]

Perhaps HD on FM has done just that and it is the greatest thing since radio was first invented. But what about the AM side? I don't hear you saying anything about that except that your opinion is that HD will insure AM's viability into the future (we will have music formats on AM and all sorts of things that will get people interested in listening to AM radio again).

AM is rapidly losing the last of its sales demo audience because people under 45 or 50 do not like listening to analog AM. Yet when "AM" formats like news / talk or all-news are moved to FM, in the same market, the 35-54 audience increases enormously.

The only chance the decent AM facilities (less than 300 in the top 100 markets) have of survival is to improve the quality via HD. Otherwise, the AM formats that work will move to FM and the entire band will die.

As with KSL 1160 AM, all they will do is simulcast on FM - KSL has no plans for turning off AM. AM radio will be around, as long as, I am alive. WLW boasts nighttime AM coverage to 38 states and is ranked #1 in their market. You and other IBOC supports give this doom-or-gloom scenario for AM, when the major AMs are alive-and-well - yea, good way to justify HD-AM, like anyone cares about audio quality for news/talk/sports.