HD hall of shame

[rbrucecarter5]

Another hall of shamer in Houston. KRBE HD-2. Gone for WEEKs now. Not a station between the stations, not a priority, not taken seriously, not reliable - take your pick. HD is just a sideline joke to these stations. The only hope I see is renting out the HD subchannel to feed a translator. They even get that wrong. For the microscopic number of people that have an HD radio and know how to use it - the HD-3 on 102.1 is very low in volume, obviously mono (the translator it supposedly drives is stereo), it is just there to skirt FCC rules about originating local content. But the revenue to 102.1 is the same, the 106.1 people pay for it, and this is about the only way the HD subchannel can get revenue. 104.1 sold commercials on HD-2, obviously that money dried up, so why bother? They might as well switch back to the old antenna bays that gave them extremely good range for their analog signal, and penetrate buildings again.

 

[purpledevil]

Another bitchfest about HD....

What the hell, I'll play along. I nominate KHPT-HD2 for Bruce's Hall of Shame. It wasn't enough to waste 11 years playing the same old tired and worn out 200 songs on the main signal, so let's dump the 90's "Pat FM" and run The Point even into the ground for ANOTHER decade!

Yay!!! It's Matchbox 20's "3AM"" again! This really is the BEST of the 80s & more!!!

 

[stan]

SMH

Another day, another HD rant.

 

[ContinuousWave]

Better than other certain "rants" (that are personal in nature)

YES, I said it......you know, the IGNORE USER POSTS feature on here comes in handy..but have only used it on one person..but it makes life soooooooooooo much quieter......

To acknowledge a nut is to encourage one.....so the IGNORE feature helps in that!!

 

[davideduardo]

Another hall of shamer in Houston. KRBE HD-2. Gone for WEEKs now. Not a station between the stations, not a priority, not taken seriously, not reliable - take your pick. HD is just a sideline joke to these stations.

What has happened is that most stations initially installed HD on the main transmitter. Not on the auxiliary and certainly not at an auxiliary site.

Since the first generation of HD gear had what might politely be called "glitches" most stations were waiting for the second generation to replace the original gear and move it onto the backup equipment. Then the recession hit. No capex budgets. And then reduced one.

Which would you rather do: 1. replace the main transmitter that is going on 20 years old, 2. do a cash contest to boos ratings, 3. put HD on a transmitter that will not be used even 5% of the time?

So most stations have no backup HD. If there is main antenna work, main transmitter work, operation at the back-up site and similar, there is not going to be HD.

HD is a priority, but not as high a one as the main analog signal. Today, with revenues flat and new media offering better distribution options, HD will not be first in line for capital.

(Prioritization and economic reality have to meet somewhere. I once owned 12 stations and not one of them had a backup transmitter or STL. I got woken up a lot and got a few tickets driving to the transmitters. But that's all I could afford. Same goes for HD at most stations.)

 

[ContinuousWave]

In all fairness to Bruce though, David, he did say the HD-2...which means the HD RF carrier and likely HD-1 was there, just no programming on HD-2 or its stream was not decoded as being active (no different than a DTV with a .2 or .3 subchannel that is black screen and no programming...WHY?)

And yes, the HD-2s in the Houston (#6) market do go away for some times while the HD-1 stream is still active..so it seems like noone is minding the store...which begs the question, why bother with HD if all they do is run the HD-1 simulcast of the analog? No ROI there.....the HD-2 (and 3 if present) is NEEDED for additional revenue/cash flow..otherwise, they would save $$$ by turning off the HD carriers and gear..

 

[Kelly A]

They might as well switch back to the old antenna bays that gave them extremely good range for their analog signal, and penetrate buildings again.

This is a double post where Bruce posted on the same text on the HD section and here. For some reason Bruce keeps insisting that somehow running HD sidebands on FM reduces "Building Penetration" and field strength to the analog carrier. First, Bruce insists he has measured the loss of building penetration when running HD, yet refuses to tell us how he came to the conclusion from a technical perspective. No doubt the reason he doesn't tell us how he arrived at his repetitive conclusion, is he hasn't actually measured anything with any test criteria which would prove or disprove his point. Certainly he has a right to his opinion, but it is completely subjective and a reason to rant, nothing scientific. David, myself, and others have tried over and over to explain to Bruce how IBOC/HD is transmitted and how there is zero effect to the field strength of the analog carrier. Instead, here we are being treated to yet more of his repetitive, unsubstantiated claims.

 

[ContinuousWave]

I missed his last statement on the "switch back"

All of the folks with spectrum analyzers, etc will prove the field strength of the analog has not decreased...that is a FACT.

However, the receivers themselves have some issues with the adjacent channel issues..And I can understand his statements though he has no real technical proof from a signal generator, bench set up to back up his claims...

HOWEVER, I can offer some light on the subject.......he may have SOME merit....(I said MAY)....it depends on the RCVR....

In the early 1980s, Texas amateur radio operators were debating about what to do with the 146-148MHz repeater subband. Stay with 15 kHz channel spacing, go to inverted 15k spacing (where on each 15k step, the TX and RX freqs of the rptrs were reversed or go to 20kHz spacing. The argument on the inverted splits was you only had two TX and two RX to deal with...the rptrs themselves...but that was not true......(and its such a long story, I wont attempt to type it here)...

BUT 15k vs 20k spacing, I ran tests with a Motorola MICOR (considered THE standard reference of radios at the time. The GE MastrII / EXEC II were also considered its equal)...with two non modulating signal generators Teed into a radio through correct matching, I found the MICOR was degraded on channel by the noise of the adj carrier 15k 30-40 db more than 20k spacing...also the 15k spaced carrier when modulated, caused issues with the squelch system of the MICOR receiver which used the white noise in that range out of the FM detector to use for the squelch circuit!!!

ANY RF carrier has "noise" on its sidebands.....no matter how small...(A true clean carrier would have ZERO bandwidth but thats not true in real life!!) Modulating a carrier causes sidebands and in FM, the sidebands go on and on and on....they just taper off quickly close in but in theory they go on forever!! After a point though, you cannot detect them with real equipment...

Modulating a FM carrier or running an exciter which sideband noise at say -80dbC through a IPA/PA causes the sideband noise to rise as much as 30+ db vs no mod or no PA. ANY amplifier has noise.....that a fact of life...NO amplifier has NO noise gain....GasFet preamps have 0.2db of noise figure while a lot of older preamp could have noise gain figures of several db.....but the typical high level PA increases the carrier by 10-30+ TIMES gain (10 to 16 DB gain) but the NOISE figure is MUCH worst.....and NO filter slim enough to get rid of it can ever be built, for it would have to have a brick wall cut off at each side of the carrier and kill the noise sidebands but not kill the audio sidebands...good luck in that..

SO HD carriers offset from the analog carrier do NOT affect the transmission LEVEL of the analog signal...but it can and probably DOES degrade the receiver (depending on its design) and thus gives the impression that the analog has been decreased in signal.....but it has not..the problem is at the rcvr, not the xmtr.

This is why of course one reason HD has been limited to such low levels compared to the analog.. in those close in areas, the effect of analog FM and signal level should (I said SHOULD) counter the interference issues....But thats in theory.....in practice, I have found radios dont read text books....and thus dont always act like they "should"

However Bruce, HD is not going away on FM soon.....and all your complaining and whining and commenting will not change the current trend...AM HD is dying on the vine....and until FM HD starts to see MAJOR loss of revenue or it really starts to affect the balance sheets, its not going anywhere...Those who are "smarter than us" are driving the boat....though its going backwards up the wrong river, they just see it as moving and think all is good....and until it hits an iceberg and starts taking on water/starts to sink completely, they are not changing their minds no matter what you or anyone else thinks.

SO its time to turn off the commenting about the RF signal........programming issues and revenue from it is another matter and I think if it continues as it does now, will affect HD.......but then again, 102.1 has HD 2 and 3 running..and they are making $$$ off it ......until that reverses, its not going anywhere.....

NOW, I have to ask, did you even bother to call KRBE and ask WHY their HD-2 was off?? The engineers have enough to worry about already (right Robbie?) and likely dont listen to the HD-2.......someone SHOULD have a silence sensor on a HD-2 rcvr somewhere...but evidently noone has suggested it or its not that important right now..when color TV came along or FM stereo, it took a LONG time for it to become the standard and everyone was doing it....HD is still in its teething stages....and will continue to have hiccups....

talk about hiccups....I am doing a major Win7 refresh at a location I cannot disclose....200+ PC, mixed desktops and laptops all under lease from a major PC maker who is "leading" the project...they have gotten POed because the "predicted" time in updating the PCs is taking longer than the 'smarter folks' predicted...yeah on the bench with a set PC and known paths, etc, I bet their testing did come up with the numbers they are pushing but in the field, you can tell people this needs to be done PRIOR to the reimage and guess what? A LOT of them didnt listen or thought they knew better...and we are paying the price for it due to hiccups....we are following the wise ones script to the T but it dont work as planned in the REAL world and its NOT our fault...but guess who is catching flack?? FM HD is the same way......in theory it looks like it could be great (but it may never overcome the rcvr design issues..Scotty on Star Trek said it right "you canna change the laws of physics!!") but its growth will be slow and there will be issues like KRBE's HD-2 dropping out......now if you call and complain, it will make it up the chain and maybe someone WILL put a HD-2 radio with a silence sensor and tie it to a remote control that will alert someone that the HD-2 is down..otherwise, its a work in progress..and right now more pressing issues take higher priority.....so lay off the whining here.....because it wont change anything. Got a beef? Take it to those to who it will matter...KRBE/Cumulus......OR its sponsors/advertisers on HD-2..THEY are the ones with KRBE's balls in their hands....and if THEY squeeze, I GUARANTEE things would change overnight.

I have said MY LAST word on this issue and ask that YOU cease as well.............I have told you what to do. If you don't, then go to a mirror and bitch to yourself because that will be the only one who cares.

 

[Mediafrog+]

On some really cheap FM receivers (basically of the "junk" variety) with very poor selectivity/IF bandpass I have noticed that the HD sidebands will slop into the main signal, add hiss, and give it the appearance of being "weaker" when it is really not...however on any halfway decent receiver I have never heard any degradation of the analog signal. On various car trips I find that all the Houston FMs go just as far as they ever did on the current towers, unless blocked by a newer co-channel station.

Any degradation of a FM signal due to an antenna change might be due to a greater beam tilt, which will reduce the signal in extreme fringe areas while increasing it in places where the intended audience actually is.

 

[davideduardo]

In all fairness to Bruce though, David, he did say the HD-2...which means the HD RF carrier and likely HD-1 was there, just no programming on HD-2 or its stream was not decoded as being active (no different than a DTV with a .2 or .3 subchannel that is black screen and no programming...WHY?)

And yes, the HD-2s in the Houston (#6) market do go away for some times while the HD-1 stream is still active..so it seems like noone is minding the store...which begs the question, why bother with HD if all they do is run the HD-1 simulcast of the analog? No ROI there.....the HD-2 (and 3 if present) is NEEDED for additional revenue/cash flow..otherwise, they would save $$$ by turning off the HD carriers and gear..

Good points. The HD2 channels are a step down the hierarchy, and since there is no analog fallback, if the HD transmitter is off, the channel is off.

The reasons, though, are the same: before stations could budget for backup HD transmission gear, the recession hit. And that also affected the budgets for HD2 channels, which showed little potential for income.

 

[radiogooroo]

Streaming is in the same boat as HD at most stations - no backup equipment.

As for money, it's coming. Several HD2 channels are running paid ads now, including KRBE's. They're few and far between on some stations, but they are there.

As far as "minding the store" is concerned, some people just don't give a s**t. Those people wouldn't give a s**t about the main channels either, but they do care about their own butts and the potential of getting fired. When the HD2 takes a dump due to some careless act, like a PD failing to load a log properly or forgetting to, the revenue loss isn't significant enough to merit a butt chewing.

As the revenue becomes more significant, and it's happening, that will change. The GM isn't going to like writing off revenue because the person programming the station was too lazy to make sure the log was loaded properly.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

NOW, I have to ask, did you even bother to call KRBE and ask WHY their HD-2 was off?? The engineers have enough to worry about already (right Robbie?) and likely dont listen to the HD-2.......someone SHOULD have a silence sensor on a HD-2 rcvr somewhere...but evidently noone has suggested it or its not that important right now..when color TV came along or FM stereo, it took a LONG time for it to become the standard and everyone was doing it....HD is still in its teething stages....and will continue to have hiccups....

Typical scenario of calling a station --- after I am on hold for 30 minutes listening to horribly distorted "hold music" that I guarantee NOBODY likes but the guy that set up the switchboard - I get a condescending voice "did you try turning the radio on", followed by the rest of the script provided to the call center in India. If I somehow managed to actually GET a station engineer, after they finished laughing at me for complaining about an HD-2 that nobody cares about, nobody but me listens to - I probably get scolded for wasting his time, because HD isn't a priority to him, his boss, or the station in general.

My point is that HD is a technology still in its infancy - just like your color television example. Imagine the consumer's anger in the 60's after they paid an exorbitant amount of money for a color set, only to find out that the station doesn't care whether they are broadcasting in color or not. How long would color television have lasted if it wasn't reliable. Consumers don't care the engineer is overworked, has other priorities. They care that their HD radio isn't receiving the station. I don't care if KRBE analog and HD-1 is on the air or not. I only listen to the HD-2. If that HD-2 is off, the whole station might as well be off - and my HD radio is as worthless as that color TV set in the 60's would have been. New technologies have to actually WORK to be taken seriously by consumers. I don't consider a two week outage of an HD-2 acceptable. A local radio station - KRBE HD-2 is off the air, and nobody cares to even notices. No excuses, if it is a radio station, it needs to be reliable, backed up, taken seriously by engineering and management. A listener should NEVER have to do an engineer's job for them. An outage should trigger an alert on their cell phone, they should drop everything and get out to the site to get it working. That is their freakin' job. Not mine!

One reason why HD radio is a miserable failure in the marketplace with consumers is that it just isn't reliable! And attitudes like I have been reading here are arrogant and condescending. Not helping to get the darn HD-2 back on the air!!! For a station that expects a revenue stream from advertisers, a station needs to be on the air. For a technology dying in the consumer marketplace, reliability is about the ONLY thing that will win consumers back at this point!

 

[radiogooroo]

Typical scenario of calling a station --- after I am on hold for 30 minutes listening to horribly distorted "hold music" that I guarantee NOBODY likes but the guy that set up the switchboard - I get a condescending voice "did you try turning the radio on", followed by the rest of the script provided to the call center in India. If I somehow managed to actually GET a station engineer, after they finished laughing at me for complaining about an HD-2 that nobody cares about, nobody but me listens to - I probably get scolded for wasting his time, because HD isn't a priority to him, his boss, or the station in general.

My point is that HD is a technology still in its infancy - just like your color television example. Imagine the consumer's anger in the 60's after they paid an exorbitant amount of money for a color set, only to find out that the station doesn't care whether they are broadcasting in color or not. How long would color television have lasted if it wasn't reliable. Consumers don't care the engineer is overworked, has other priorities. They care that their HD radio isn't receiving the station. I don't care if KRBE analog and HD-1 is on the air or not. I only listen to the HD-2. If that HD-2 is off, the whole station might as well be off - and my HD radio is as worthless as that color TV set in the 60's would have been. New technologies have to actually WORK to be taken seriously by consumers. I don't consider a two week outage of an HD-2 acceptable. A local radio station - KRBE HD-2 is off the air, and nobody cares to even notices. No excuses, if it is a radio station, it needs to be reliable, backed up, taken seriously by engineering and management. A listener should NEVER have to do an engineer's job for them. An outage should trigger an alert on their cell phone, they should drop everything and get out to the site to get it working. That is their freakin' job. Not mine!

One reason why HD radio is a miserable failure in the marketplace with consumers is that it just isn't reliable! And attitudes like I have been reading here are arrogant and condescending. Not helping to get the darn HD-2 back on the air!!! For a station that expects a revenue stream from advertisers, a station needs to be on the air. For a technology dying in the consumer marketplace, reliability is about the ONLY thing that will win consumers back at this point!

You seem to have all the answers. It's a shame that this wide ranging knowledge of all things radio is confined to this message board. You have a lot to contribute on a variety of topics. Programming, engineering, HD, etc. You have it all covered!

Ever think about getting a job in the business so you can show us all how it should really be done?

 

[davideduardo]

Typical scenario of calling a station --- after I am on hold for 30 minutes listening to horribly distorted "hold music" that I guarantee NOBODY likes but the guy that set up the switchboard - I get a condescending voice "did you try turning the radio on", followed by the rest of the script provided to the call center in India.

Now you are making things up. I don't know of any station with a "call center" in India. There is not enough call volume to make it worthwhile or economical. However, many departments don't have a lot of people around to take specific calls...

If I somehow managed to actually GET a station engineer, after they finished laughing at me for complaining about an HD-2 that nobody cares about, nobody but me listens to - I probably get scolded for wasting his time, because HD isn't a priority to him, his boss, or the station in general.

Few engineers can sit around waiting for the phone to ring. They are visiting transmitter sites, doing maintenance and projects in the TOC and in the studios. Smaller stations have contract engineers that only come in for emergencies and periodic maintenance. If you expect to get a live engineer, you have unrealistic expectations.

My point is that HD is a technology still in its infancy - just like your color television example.

The technology is hardly in its infancy. It is in fact, fairly mature

Imagine the consumer's anger in the 60's after they paid an exorbitant amount of money for a color set, only to find out that the station doesn't care whether they are broadcasting in color or not.

Implementation at the station level has nothing to do with the maturity of the system.

How long would color television have lasted if it wasn't reliable. Consumers don't care the engineer is overworked, has other priorities. They care that their HD radio isn't receiving the station.

But the fact is that many stations had their capital expenditures curtailed in 2008-2009 as the recession killed 40% of radio revenues, and most have still to get to the point that they can budget for backup HD systems and infrastructure. Updating the principal functions after 7 years of limited expenditures is the priority.

[/QUOTE] I don't care if KRBE analog and HD-1 is on the air or not. I only listen to the HD-2. If that HD-2 is off, the whole station might as well be off - and my HD radio is as worthless as that color TV set in the 60's would have been. New technologies have to actually WORK to be taken seriously by consumers. I don't consider a two week outage of an HD-2 acceptable. A local radio station - KRBE HD-2 is off the air, and nobody cares to even notices. [/QUOTE]

But if the station is on an auxiliary antenna with an auxiliary transmitter, they may have no choice.

No excuses, if it is a radio station, it needs to be reliable, backed up, taken seriously by engineering and management. A listener should NEVER have to do an engineer's job for them. An outage should trigger an alert on their cell phone, they should drop everything and get out to the site to get it working. That is their freakin' job. Not mine!

How do you even know that the engineer can fix the "problem"?

Many situations are not "fixable" by going to the transmitter site. For example, a lightning hit on the main antenna which has the station go to an auxiliary setup that has no HD capability. It might take quite a bit of time to get a new antenna, and get riggers and coordinate reduced or zero RF on the tower while repairs are being made.

Or a replacement of the main transmitter... the one with the HD installed. The station will be on the Aux while the old rig is moved out, and the new one is installed and connected to the plumbing and tested.

One reason why HD radio is a miserable failure in the marketplace with consumers is that it just isn't reliable!

HD is quite reliable. But most stations that installed HD have as yet to put in HD on backup systems.

And attitudes like I have been reading here are arrogant and condescending.

When you talk about adding bays to improve coverage, you set yourself up for ridicule. Adding bays requires a cp and modification of the license, and adjustments to the TPO. At some point, adding bays has noxious effects on reception (in my opinion, somewhere between 6 and 8 are the safe limits) and there are other considerations such as available vertical tower space, wind loading on the tower, etc .

 

[Kelly A]

Now you are making things up. I don't know of any station with a "call center" in India. There is not enough call volume to make it worthwhile or economical. However, many departments don't have a lot of people around to take specific calls...

Only NOW, is he making things up?? I argue that pretty much all of his technical comments about radio stations have been.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Only NOW, is he making things up?? I argue that pretty much all of his technical comments about radio stations have been.

Its OK - I had to deal with mean girls in high school, so I don't care what your opinion is of me on here. As a gesture of good will - I have not reported any nasty posts to the moderators.

 

[purpledevil]

Wow, man...that's awesome! I'm actually wiping the tears out of my eyes from laughing so hard.

Is that for real, Bruce? You don't actually go tattle to the teacher when someone challenges you, do you? You & me have been around here a looooooong time & we've disagreed on several things before, but if this is legitimate then I'm sorry for ever arguing with you about anything. I swear I thought I was debating with another adult.

 

[radiogooroo]

Oh, the irony. The guy that starts nasty threads whining about nasty posts in them.

 

[Kelly A]

Its OK - I had to deal with mean girls in high school,

Okay I'm officially confused; are you claiming that you were picked on by girls in high school, or you're actually female? Not that it is any of my business, nor that it has anything to do with radio, just found it as an odd statement.

 

[CQCQ]

I enjoy reading the posts!

Keep it up fellas. I enjoy reading the posts!
This is better than watching crappy local news/TV and
crappy stupid "reality shows" and listening to boring
local crappy talk as all the show hosts are in love
with themselves. AND, the music is crappy, too; and
so on and so forth. Bravo!!!