HD in the retail space needs to do one thing...

[arnoldevns]

MAKE SURE IT'S SET UP TO WORK IN THE STORE!!!!

I went in to my local Fry's today to look around for a gift for my brother. I was pleasantly surprised to see a nice large display of two HD radios. It had a big sign talking about improved audio quality and more station choices. There was a smaller sign next to one of the radios detailing some of the HD2 programming available in my area. (the Dallas-Fort Worth market)

I was pleased to see that both radios were plugged in and turned on so I could give them a try.
Unfortunately, both radios had simple antennas placed on top of them - like the kind you would find with other home stereo systems.
I could not get an HD signal on either radio. The analog FM reception inside the store was awful. The AM reception was non-existant.

I cannot stress this enough to anyone who is trying to sell this product: Make sure it's set up to work in the store. Make sure the average customer just walking by has the chance to hear an HD signal and HD2 programming while they are there. It will be very hard to sell the average customer an AM/FM radio for $250 if they don't hear something better than what they can get for $20 elsewhere.

I've posted before about my experiences in Radio Shack stores where the display was small and the radios did not tune in the HD programming. At least in Fry's they had an appropriate and eye-catching display. It was still a huge disappointment that I could not hear any HD programming.

I'll repeat for anyone that's unclear about what HD proponents need to do to make this work in the retail space: MAKE SURE IT'S SET UP TO WORK IN THE STORE!!!!

 

[700WLW]

HD Radio will only work inside buildings/structures, with externally mounted dipole antennas. Another promotional piece, that has no business being a separate thread. No wonder, in part, why sales of HD radios are so anemic - this is a portable society, and except for "radio geeks", table mounted HD radios, requiring the mounting of external dipole antennas, hasn't appealed, for good reason, to consumers. Even with dipole antennas, the reception of HD channels is problematic, at best. Wait until portable Internet Radio units arrive - consumers will flock to these devices, without the fluffy promotional pieces being forced on them.

 

[clouseau]

HD Radio will only work inside buildings/structures, with externally mounted dipole antennas.

This is without a doubt the most misinformed and unqualified statement made by Crosley EVER. HD radio DOES require a more robust signal than analog fringe. That is... Analog HD appears to go to about the 54 DBu contour (of real reception). That is BEYOND the protected contour of many stations. And at that contour for B's and B1's. It isn't designed to work on DX. However, to broadly proclaim it "won't work inside buildings/structures without an external antenna" is just WRONG.

IT'S A BOLD FACE LIE.

I guess my house doesn't count as a structure. And while I don't have FACTUAL EVIDENCE, I would suspect that most of the houses between MY house and the transmitter site 20 miles away can get it too. And I'll go way out on a limb and suspect that these results in terms of distance are reasonably typical. (as a minimum). NOW who's making fantastic claims?? Sorry Crosley. You are just wrong, and I suspect you know it.

...this is a portable society, and except for "radio geeks", table mounted ... radios, requiring the mounting of external ... antennas, hasn't appealed, for good reason, to consumers.

You must be right. 12 millions satellite radio subscribers are obviously won't deal with no portables except in cars and the need for an external antenna.

BTW how's your Sirius or Xm work in the living room without that external antenna?? This is just MORE ridiculous garbage from the Anti HD crowd.

Wait until portable Internet Radio units arrive

I have one. It's called my laptop computer. It's $800 to buy. (on Sale) $59.95 a month subscription for the broadband card. (From Sprint) It has less range than local HD in terms of working out of town. Doesn't sound as good as HD. And when everyone in the world has one, it overloads the Internet. (Do the bitrate math). Hell of a deal.

Cue the response about internet radio and note the lack of addressing "THE BIG LIE".


Clouseau

 

[700WLW]

I knew, I'de hear from you on this one ! If you take a look at the "HD Radio Receiver Sensitivity" thread's many personal examples of poor reception inside of buildings, you will see that you are wrong. Look at the post, that originated this thread ! Interesting, that you got so excited over my post.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Quote
Wait until portable Internet Radio units arrive

I have one. It's called my laptop computer. It's $800 to buy. (on Sale) $59.95 a month subscription for the broadband card. (From Sprint)

But you already have it, and probably bought it for other reasons then just listening to internet and WI-FI HD Radio, so the net added cost for internet/WI-FI listening = FREE!
Millions of program sources available free worldwide, WOW!
iBiquity can never top that, and it does not even jam other broadcast stations. What a great deal.

 

[700WLW]

IT'S A BOLD FACE LIE.

Clouseau

Here - I'll give you one personal example, from that thread, concerning reception inside someone's house:

"HD Unreliable at times-Need outdoor antenna"

"UH... Just a personal complaint. Today is one of them mornings where the HD wont stay locked in. I Can still listen to the Analog stations, which switch between HD and Analog, but the HD-2s arent going to be reliable enough. Does this ever happen to you? I just have to wait for better reception weather or move closer to the city."

 

[arnoldevns]

I find it amazing that neither the proponents nor opponents of HD Radio addressed the issue I brought up in this thread.

I don't know if you need an outdoor antenna to hear HD - and I don't care.

What I do care about is the fact that the people who are promoting this technology are wasting their money by not ensuring that retailers can demonstrate it to the public properly.

HD radio may be great, but I wouldn't know it based on what I've seen in the retail stores I've visited. If it needs an outdoor antenna to work inside the huge metal box that most electronic stores are housed in, then the retailers should hook it up to one and make sure the radios get all the HD signals they can for the in-store display.

It sickens me to see such shoddy work on the part of the retailers and such a lack of clarity on the part of the broadcasters who are promoting this technology. The broadcasters can't figure out which aspect of HD radio is better to promote: the added programming or the better sound. (although I was encouraged to see that they may have started to figure this out) The retailers can't seem to figure out how to demonstrate either quality in the displays I've seen in stores.

If the broadcasters really want to make this thing work, they may need to invest some time and money in getting their engineers out to these retailers to make sure the store displays sell the public on buying a $250 radio. Right now, I have yet to see anyone display the product in such a way that it would convince me (or anyone else) to buy the radio.

 

[700WLW]

tested: "It sickens me to see such shoddy work on the part of the retailers and such a lack of clarity on the part of the broadcasters who are promoting this technology. The broadcasters can't figure out which aspect of HD radio is better to promote: the added programming or the better sound. (although I was encouraged to see that they may have started to figure this out) The retailers can't seem to figure out how to demonstrate either quality in the displays I've seen in stores."

It doesn't sicken me - I think it is hilarious !

We are not missing the point - the point is, that retailers are not/cannot set up the proper antenna systems; HD radios require the mounting of external dipole antennas, something Radio Shack, cannot, or will not do. No wonder, Circuit City just has the Receptor HD on-line, and not in-store. HD Radio retailers obviously don't even care about the HD radios they are selling ! So, what did you think - that HD Radio retail staff are going to read this site and take your advice, or that this will get around word-of-month, just like the HD Radio Cartel is hoping for with HD Radio ?

"Recepter Gets Another Antenna"

http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/iboc/2006.05.10-02_rw_hd_recepter_antenna_3.shtml

 

[hipporadio]

Consider two overwhelming factors that are prominent at the typical “big box” consumer electronics retailer (Fry’s, Circuit City, Best Buy, or even a large local franchise).

[ONE]: These retailers display (and hope to sell) HUNDREDS of “RF-involved” devices. Are they to construct an optimal antenna for EVERY item in the store? Do the very few poorly-marketed HD radios available deserve special consideration over devices that may be more popular or profitable (mobile audio featuring radio reception would be a good example)? What IF they DID provide such an installation? Would you be willing to bear the inevitable cost associated with such when you arrive at the check-out? These retailers place primary emphasis on providing the lowest possible cost to their customers—they are NOT “fluff-inspired media salons” that routinely ring up $10,000+ luxury purchases.

[TWO]: The RF environment inside such an operation is horrible. Consider all the above-mentioned devices and the interference they generate... A hundred turned-on televisions plus all the active computers plastering the radio bands—dozens of radios tuned to differing frequencies and creating I.F. interaction between them—even that store’s security system. It’s a simple “no win—any way” proposition!

I have purchased well beyond my fair share of radios over a 30-year period, and I have NEVER expected the full potential of those products to be realized within the hostile RF confines of a retail building. I feel most intelligent consumers realize that also—think of the MILLIONS of $200-500 car receivers that fly right out of these establishments before they ever see an antenna connected. The three most-expensive radios I own (a McIntosh FM tuner, a Carver tuner with exceptional AM, and an I-Com SWL receiver) weren’t so much as plugged in before I whipped out my credit card. I researched these products—and made my decision to purchase because I WANTED and FOUND VALUE in owning them. When they arrived home, I attached the appropriate (and most practical) antenna—and all worked well.

Any good radio REQUIRES a good antenna—yes—one of those dreaded “dipoles”, Donald! I wouldn’t consider spending $130 on my BA mono Receptor and choose to ignore the nice $30 C Crane “Reflect” antenna that permits that receiver to achieve its full capabilities. Fact is... We've gotten too used to "Cable" for a quick TV fix and 12-inch "rat-tails" for FM radio. Any necessity for “consumer education” needs to begin with this pesky detail!

Furthermore, the customer (for a matter no more simple than common sense) is EXPECTED to do some basic leg-work... Don’t you undertake such when you purchase a new car—or even a stove for your kitchen? Should every mall department store provide you with a demo Norelco shaver to try-before-you-buy? NO—if your stubble is beyond the capacity of that razor—you simply return it! Today (more than ever) researching the suitability of a product is a fairly routine feat to accomplish. Even so—ANY desirable seller will provide reasonable terms for a return.

The HD radio industry appears on a desperate search to shift blame for poor sales and an apathetic marketplace... I guess the latest culprit is your local Fry’s store—and they even put up a nice and informative display.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

The HD radio industry appears on a desperate search to shift blame for poor sales and an apathetic marketplace... I guess the latest culprit is your local Fry’s store—and they even put up a nice and informative display.

This is precisely the crux of the matter. When you're asking people to buy a radio which is supposed to have better audio quality than the radios consumers already own, you'd damn well better have a working model available to demostrate the difference. This is not the same as trying to sell CD, DVD or MP3 players, which were new-tech when they were first introduced. This is (in theory) an improvement to an existing technology. If you're not going to take the trouble to adequately demonstrate the difference to those people who you're asking to buy the product, you've lost the battle even before you've begun.

 

[arnoldevns]

These retailers display (and hope to sell) HUNDREDS of “RF-involved” devices. Are they to construct an optimal antenna for EVERY item in the store?

In the very same store that I saw this HD radio display, I also saw dozens of HD TVs all showing the same live broadcast of a basketball game. If they can hook up dozens of HD TV sets to an antenna system of some kind, they can do the same for all the stereo systems in the store - including HD radio.

I have purchased well beyond my fair share of radios over a 30-year period, and I have NEVER expected the full potential of those products to be realized within the hostile RF confines of a retail building.

(snip)

The HD radio industry appears on a desperate search to shift blame for poor sales and an apathetic marketplace... I guess the latest culprit is your local Fry’s store—and they even put up a nice and informative display.

Yep, you've hit on a lot of the problem here.

In order for HD radio to sell, they HAVE to show off the benefit of the radio to the consumer. Sure, anyone buying a radio should do some research, but it's hard to convince anyone to spend hundreds of dollars on a system like this when they can't get even one station to come in clearly.

Personally, I am somewhat neutral about the whole HD radio thing. It doesn't really matter much to me whether or not it succeeds or fails. I just don't like to see something fail because it was botched by the people promoting it. If HD radio really offers the benefits its proponents say it does, it should have a fair shot at success. But what I see right now though is a totally inept MARKETING effort. It's so bad I really have no way of judging whether the technology is good or not. That kind of screw up annoys me anytime I see it in any business. (don't get me started on the airline and automobile industries!)

So, what did you think - that HD Radio retail staff are going to read this site and take your advice, or that this will get around word-of-month, just like the HD Radio Cartel is hoping for with HD Radio ?

Not at all. I doubt many (or any!) radio retailers read this board. But I do know that many radio broadcasters read this board. Perhaps some of the broadcasters who are helping push HD radio will read these comments and start to examine whether the money they're spending on promoting it is really being spent well. Right now, it isn't. If I was at one of these HD stations and I read these experiences, I'd be paying a visit to a lot of retailers soon to see exactly what they're doing. That's precisely what the local HDTV stations did a few years back and it's paid off for them.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I find it amazing that neither the proponents nor opponents of HD Radio addressed the issue I brought up in this thread.

I don't know if you need an outdoor antenna to hear HD - and I don't care.
What I do care about is the fact that the people who are promoting this technology are wasting their money by not ensuring that retailers can demonstrate it to the public properly.

HD radio may be great, but I wouldn't know it based on what I've seen in the retail stores I've visited. If it needs an outdoor antenna to work inside the huge metal box that most electronic stores are housed in, then the retailers should hook it up to one and make sure the radios get all the HD signals they can for the in-store display.
It sickens me to see such shoddy work on the part of the retailers and such a lack of clarity on the part of the broadcasters who are promoting this technology. The broadcasters can't figure out which aspect of HD radio is better to promote: the added programming or the better sound. (although I was encouraged to see that they may have started to figure this out) The retailers can't seem to figure out how to demonstrate either quality in the displays I've seen in stores.

If the broadcasters really want to make this thing work, they may need to invest some time and money in getting their engineers out to these retailers to make sure the store displays sell the public on buying a $250 radio. Right now, I have yet to see anyone display the product in such a way that it would convince me (or anyone else) to buy the radio.

Many retail locations are prohibited or restricted from putting up any really effective outdoor antennas by, landlords, leases, zoning, local legislators, fire marshalls, insurance companies, etc. Wind, electical, lightning hazards, and unsightly, they claim.
The antenna issue directly applies to your thread topic.

The number of radio engineers employed in broadcasting has been drastically reduced. Now it is not unusual for one engineer to be responsible for, and run between, a dozen or more stations. Now you want broadcast engineers to be responsible for educating retail sales persons, and make personal appearances at retail locations. Of course, all that at the same pay, and with no help.
The goals of retail sales is opposite of engineering. A good engineer should tell you the truth, a good salesperson does whatever is necessary to close the sale. A knowledgeable, honest, salesperson (used cars for example) is considered by many retailers as their worst nightmare.

 

[arnoldevns]

Many retail locations are prohibited or restricted from putting up any really effective outdoor antennas by, landlords, leases, zoning, local legislators, fire marshalls, insurance companies, etc. Wind, electical, lightning hazards, and unsightly, they claim.
The antenna issue directly applies to your thread topic.

The number of radio engineers employed in broadcasting has been drastically reduced. Now it is not unusual for one engineer to be responsible for, and run between, a dozen or more stations. Now you want broadcast engineers to be responsible for educating retail sales persons, and make personal appearances at retail locations. Of course, all that at the same pay, and with no help.
The goals of retail sales is opposite of engineering. A good engineer should tell you the truth, a good salesperson does whatever is necessary to close the sale. A knowledgeable, honest, salesperson (used cars for example) is considered by many retailers as their worst nightmare.

Ridiculous! The stores I've discussed on this board that have not displayed HD radio properly ALL have outdoor antennas on the roof. In fact, EVERY electronics retailer in my area has several outdoor antennas on the roof. This is a red herring argument.

If the local stations that are expending quite a bit of promotional time on HD radio can't afford to help make sure people can hear these things properly at the stores they're telling people to go to, then they shouldn't expect to sell even one radio for $250. Somehow, I'd bet they could find a way to get a couple of people to go around and make sure this works. The survival of their industry might depend on it.

In this case, the engineer and the salesperson both have the same objective: to sell the radio to as many people as possible. If the engineer can help make sure the display works the way it should, then it is to the benefit of both.

 

[700WLW]

Many retail locations are prohibited or restricted from putting up any really effective outdoor antennas by, landlords, leases, zoning, local legislators, fire marshalls, insurance companies, etc. Wind, electical, lightning hazards, and unsightly, they claim.
The antenna issue directly applies to your thread topic.

The number of radio engineers employed in broadcasting has been drastically reduced. Now it is not unusual for one engineer to be responsible for, and run between, a dozen or more stations. Now you want broadcast engineers to be responsible for educating retail sales persons, and make personal appearances at retail locations. Of course, all that at the same pay, and with no help.
The goals of retail sales is opposite of engineering. A good engineer should tell you the truth, a good salesperson does whatever is necessary to close the sale. A knowledgeable, honest, salesperson (used cars for example) is considered by many retailers as their worst nightmare.

Ridiculous! The stores I've discussed on this board that have not displayed HD radio properly ALL have outdoor antennas on the roof. In fact, EVERY electronics retailer in my area has several outdoor antennas on the roof. This is a red herring argument.

If the local stations that are expending quite a bit of promotional time on HD radio can't afford to help make sure people can hear these things properly at the stores they're telling people to go to, then they shouldn't expect to sell even one radio for $250. Somehow, I'd bet they could find a way to get a couple of people to go around and make sure this works. The survival of their industry might depend on it.

In this case, the engineer and the salesperson both have the same objective: to sell the radio to as many people as possible. If the engineer can help make sure the display works the way it should, then it is to the benefit of both.

Well, it just looks like retailers don't care enough about HD Radio - same goes with consumers !

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Tested said:

Ridiculous! The stores I've discussed on this board that have not displayed HD radio properly ALL have outdoor antennas on the roof. In fact, EVERY electronics retailer in my area has several outdoor antennas on the roof. This is a red herring argument.

I am not defending the practice of not demonstrating electronics and radios in stores, as you seem to imply. I am just stating that many shopping centers (where many stores are), as well as apartment buildings, housing developments, and local zoning boards in my area, have lease restrictions or covenants that restrict or prohibit external appurtenances.
This might not be true in all areas yet, but it makes widespread success of HD Radio that much more doubtful.

The survival of their industry might depend on it.

If the survival of the radio broadcast industry depends on the widespread success of HD radio, I think they are toast already. Try better, more interesting and engaging programming, and forget about iBiquity/HD Radio.

 

[arnoldevns]

If the survival of the radio broadcast industry depends on the widespread success of HD radio, I think they are toast already. Try better, more interesting and engaging programming, and forget about iBiquity/HD Radio.

(hence the reason I said "might depend")

There's no question terrestrial radio needs better programming to survive. But the HD radio push is not about programming so much as it is about technology and trying to make radio a "cool" must-have item like Ipods and satellite radio. My gripe was that until yesterday I was not able to actually hear how this technology sounded in a store. I finally got the chance at a Radio Shack in a mall in Frisco, Texas.

I was able to listen to one of the Boston Accoustics receivers. It was (shock!) hooked up to an outdoor antenna that was mounted on the roof of the mall. (the store manager told me they have all of their stereos hooked up to the same antenna system) The mall is a good 40 miles from the transmitters for the DFW area. I was able to tune in all the local HD FM stations without much difficulty. I had no expectation of hearing any of the AM stations and didn't try. From what I heard, I was impressed. I thought the sound was very clear and the HD2 stations sounded great.

The problem with the display was that it was shoved on a shelf with a whole bunch of other radios and did not have anything drawing attention to it. I only found it because I went in the store to specifically see if I could listen to the BA receiver. The brochures for HD radio were shoved behind the receiver.
It was a bad display, but at least I was able to hear an actual HD radio broadcast.

The HD folks need to create a seperate in-store display for every retailer that's selling these radios. (like the one I mentioned earlier in the Fry's store) The display needs to promote the extra programming choices and better sound quality. They also need to make sure the stores set up the radios so that they are able to tune in the HD signals. If they'll do all that, they'll sell a few of these radios. Right now, the HD folks are just wasting their money.

 

[700WLW]

But the HD radio push is not about programming so much as it is about technology and trying to make radio a "cool" must-have item like Ipods and satellite radio... The problem with the display was that it was shoved on a shelf with a whole bunch of other radios and did not have anything drawing attention to it... The HD folks need to create a seperate in-store display for every retailer that's selling these radios. (like the one I mentioned earlier in the Fry's store) The display needs to promote the extra programming choices and better sound quality. They also need to make sure the stores set up the radios so that they are able to tune in the HD signals. If they'll do all that, they'll sell a few of these radios. Right now, the HD folks are just wasting their money.

This is exactly HD Radio's problem - HD Radio technology is not "cool", with these ugly, clunky HD radios that need ugly, clunky dipole and loop antennas. What do you think - would someone buy one of these ugly, clunky radios over, for example, a cell phone that gets streaming audio/video/radio and is totally portable, or one of the new portable Internet Radio receivers, when they come out ! You know what - stores aren't going to bother setting up HD radios, even with mounted dipole antennas roof-top (picking up the HD channels is still problematic). Our Radio Shack has signs for iPods and Satellite Radio in their windows, but nothing for HD Radio. It doesn't take a genius, to figure out that HD Radio is a non-seller, and retailers know it ! Gosh, I wonder how many retailers, so far, have taken your advice ?

"HD confusing to consumers? Darn right."

http://www.hear2.com/2005/06/hd_confusing_to.html

 

[SUPERCASTER]

The new Infusion pocket radios are out, and pick up virtually all the HD and multicast stations plus thousands more.
http://www.torianwireless.com/index.shtml

 

[MotoMuzak]

Huh. Sure looks like a neat little gizmo.......

Betcha they drain double-A's pretty quickly tho, hopefully they come with an AC adaptor.....or one of those things you plug into your cigarette lighter.......

 

[hipporadio]

These retailers display (and hope to sell) HUNDREDS of “RF-involved” devices. Are they to construct an optimal antenna for EVERY item in the store?

In the very same store that I saw this HD radio display, I also saw dozens of HD TVs all showing the same live broadcast of a basketball game. If they can hook up dozens of HD TV sets to an antenna system of some kind, they can do the same for all the stereo systems in the store - including HD radio.

Tested... You are referencing a product category that represents an overwhelming potential for that store’s sales and profit. There is HUGE customer demand in television—opposed to the minuscule consumer query for HD radio. TVs require a cable (or antenna feed)... As I have pointed out, so may radio—but over the years consumers have become dependent on and complacent about “line-cord” and “rat tail” antennas. I happen to believe this is wrong... We didn’t function that way in the 70s when we were attempting to enjoy our shiny new Pioneer FM-stereo receivers—but the paradigm is very different today.

Unless I am misinterpreting your post (and I apologize if I am)—you seem to place responsibility upon retail locations to promote a new technical genre... This is simply NOT the way retail functions. They didn’t do it with other “broadcast enhancements” such as UHF television, FM stereo, and AM stereo—and they DIDN’T perform that root function with the introduction of CD, DVD, portable mp-3, and even XM! They responded to CONSUMER DEMAND and stocked such products at a time that warranted their cost of “floor-planning” those items.

Let’s look at “benefits”... FM stereo was obvious and spawned a huge consumer electronics business beginning in the late 60s... CDs promised an end to those pesky “pop ‘n ticks” on vinyl... DVDs surpassed the “blur” from analog VHS tape on large TVs... iPods made a personal music collection portable... XM relegated boring over-commercialized terrestrial radio to the “bone-yard”... WHAT does HD radio offer?

“New technology” generally gains its footing with the youth demographic. Coincidentally, this is an age group that current corporate radio is failing most notably to “connect” with. At the same time, they seem content to blow-off their loyal older listeners as well... So what’s left? KNOCK-KNOCK—“radio” appears to be its own worst enemy!

Furthermore—HD signals are anemic and thus VERY difficult to recover in the hostile and interference-laden confines of a large retail operation. Possibly—that adds further testimony to the defective nature of the HD radio technology... See Tom Wells’ post (reply #38) in the “HD Radio Sensitivity” thread.

Frankly, I’m surprised that your local Frys store is even stocking the very few unappetizing HD radios currently available. I have a long relationship with two very successful high-end “boutique” audio dealers that have no interest in it whatsoever (one does offer an outdoor antenna to demo the likes of very high quality WFMT and WXRT—Chicago to his $1500 McIntosh FM tuner clientele)! I can’t even find a BA Receptor in dozens of “enthusiast catalogs” aimed at an “upper market” during this holiday season.

Rather than pursue a “scam” that amounts to a conversion of unsold inventory into a tax write-off to promote defective and destructive IBOC, the radio industry needs to focus on the basics—I believe they call it GOOD PROGRAMMING... That’s what drove consumers to buy FM stereo receivers many decades ago. Sometimes the “old idea” is the best idea!