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HD info - total newbie

Couple of questions here. I'm in the Uk so forgive me for asking daft questions

is HD really HD as in higher quality than FM? From what i know HD radio uses the FM sidebands and have heard that the bitrate can be as low as 32k. Is some fancy codec used to make it sound awesome? What effect does this have on adjacent channel interference for DXers and anoraks? and please tell me it's not true HD radio is on AM. What with night time skywave I'd have thought it would raise havoc on the band at night obliterating some clear channel stations. WJR and WABC were audible when i went to N.E Ohio but being 10 khz apart is that even possible now?
 
Well, I'm not going to get too in-depth here, since I'm not that knowledgeable, but let me give you a fair bit of warning.

You're likely going to get answers from each of two extremes, one extreme saying that "HD Radio" will solve all of radio's problems and is fine and dandy, and another extreme that says "HD Radio" will bring about the apocalypse. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I'll admit my bias up front, I'm generally opposed to it on AM because it doesn't work very well there, and opposed to it on FM because it doesn't solve radio's most important problems and doesn't work very well in my experience, and has intellectual property issues surrounding it on both AM and FM. Your mileage may vary.

First of all, they chose the name "HD Radio" just so people would make the association with HDTV, which really isn't true. Audio, cannot be "high definition" because high definition is referring to the number of lines in the picture in HDTV. While HD doesn't officially stand for anything, it's generally accepted that it means "Hybrid Digital" which is probably fair. I generally prefer to just call it "IBOC."

As to whether or not it's higher quality than FM, that depends on how it's configured and the bitrates. I've heard stations have somewhat increased fidelity with IBOC, though it's certainly not anything to write home about. On the other hand, I've heard subchannels that sound like extremely compressed MP3 files, and quality like this is just unacceptable to me.

I honestly haven't noticed the adjacent interference problem, but then I don't live close enough to an IBOC station for the sidebands to come in without a roof antenna (seriously, IBOC is pretty weak). In other places, I've heard an audio recording with an analog radio where you'll hear this buzz saw sound on either side of a station broadcasting in IBOC, but this was pretty close to the transmitter.

It is most certainly on AM and most certainly does have those problems. WJR and WABC are no longer using IBOC at night because of it.

I hope it helps, and others on the board can help fill in the gaps.

- Trip
 
radiosgalore initiated:

Couple of questions here. I'm in the Uk so forgive me for asking daft questions

The only daft question is the one that isn't asked.

is HD really HD as in higher quality than FM?

It depends on whom you ask.

From what i know HD radio uses the FM sidebands and have heard that the bitrate can be as low as 32k. Is some fancy codec used to make it sound awesome?

It depends on whom you ask.

What effect does this have on adjacent channel interference for DXers and anoraks? and please tell me it's not true HD radio is on AM.

Oh, sadly it is quite true.

What with night time skywave I'd have thought it would raise havoc on the band at night obliterating some clear channel stations. WJR and WABC were audible when i went to N.E Ohio but being 10 khz apart is that even possible now?

My own opinion is that there are lots of problems with AM HD. But then again, it depends on whom you ask. Some people live in areas where they have no problems at all with anything, and other people live in areas where they have nothing but problems.

Your mileage may vary.
 
radiosgalore said:
Couple of questions here. I'm in the Uk so forgive me for asking daft questions

is HD really HD as in higher quality than FM? From what i know HD radio uses the FM sidebands and have heard that the bitrate can be as low as 32k. Is some fancy codec used to make it sound awesome? What effect does this have on adjacent channel interference for DXers and anoraks? and please tell me it's not true HD radio is on AM. What with night time skywave I'd have thought it would raise havoc on the band at night obliterating some clear channel stations. WJR and WABC were audible when i went to N.E Ohio but being 10 khz apart is that even possible now?

FM iboc-hybrid mode =96K This is subdivided if extra channels (streams) are provided, HD 2,3.

The Am is 34K. No theoretical reason that the AM iboc could not contain a different program from the analog, but the radios are not set up for it and you ofcourse lose the fallback.

have heard that the bitrate can be as low as 32k. Is some fancy codec used to make it sound awesome?

Nothing at 32k is going to be totally free of artifacts, but it will still be free of noise and distortion, if the source is decent.

In theory, FM analog should sound better than a compressed digital signal, even at the 96k rate but the ongoing loudness craze pits volume against the FM premphasis curve and stations often resort to clipping the highs or rolling them off outright to cheat the curve and gain an extra db or two.

There is also the constant problem of multipath in many areas especially cities, FM iboc cures that and provides a virtually silent noise floor.

I have not noticed any adjacent channel problems here in NYC, and the AM band has become such a mess here over the past 14 years DX'ing is a lost cause.

I have posted some samples of both am and fm iboc here in the recent past, if AM iboc is sourced with a good quality, non-compressed program, it will sound "almost" as good as the FM, certainly acceptable for most popular music and with no static. At present it requires a good strong signal for full stereo but most AM's don't seem to feed a stereo signal anyway.

In short, it helps FM in difficult areas, may provide additional programming but iboc makes the biggest difference with AM.

Below is a file link of New York's WPLJ (27mb)

It starts with main channel analog, somewhat distorted and clears when the digital kick-in @ 5 sec, then it's on to that station's two subchannels, HD2 is 80s and HD3 is oldies (James Brown).


http://www.sendspace.com/file/5aeebh

Lino
 
radiosgalore said:
Couple of questions here. I'm in the Uk so forgive me for asking daft questions

is HD really HD as in higher quality than FM? From what i know HD radio uses the FM sidebands and have heard that the bitrate can be as low as 32k. Is some fancy codec used to make it sound awesome? What effect does this have on adjacent channel interference for DXers and anoraks? and please tell me it's not true HD radio is on AM. What with night time skywave I'd have thought it would raise havoc on the band at night obliterating some clear channel stations. WJR and WABC were audible when i went to N.E Ohio but being 10 khz apart is that even possible now?

The only daft questions are those you don't ask.

FM HD is better quality than FM analog from the standpoint of signal to noise ratio. If the station devotes full 96k to their HD-1 channel, I cannot hear digital artifacts on a very good system. If they split that between an HD-1 and and HD-2, the situation is different. I can definitely begin to hear artifacts on both - but I have a trained ear and know what to listen for. Someone with an expensive trendy table radio with small speakers will not hear the difference. I have not heard audio split 3 ways with HD-3, but the artifacts can only be worse. The best compromise is probably a single HD-2 channel because the earbud iPod trendy table radio crowd is not used to the quality a good analog signal chain can provide, they have never heard it to know better.

FM IBOC jams first adjacent frequencies, which in my view is unacceptable under any circumstances. Tightly spaced allotments exist in most urban areas, especially on the East and West Coast. Some other method of doing digital that does not jam first adjacents should be found. Especially with the push to go up a decade in power. This would hurt non-commercial and NPR stations the worst, as that portion of the band is where first adjacents appear most often.

In the UK and most of Europe, I understand the channel spacing is 100 kHz instead of the 200 kHz spacing in the US. So when I speak of first adjacents, I am speaking of second adjacents in a 100 kHz scheme. The situation would be dismal for 100 kHz first adjacents. 200 kHz would be completely jammed, and 300 kHz would be degraded seriously. Only 4th adjacents, 400 kHz away, would be clear of interference in Europe.

HD radio is on AM / MW. The sidebands are robust enough they can be heard for 1000 miles in rural areas of the West in the daytime. Long after every other trace of the signal including carrier are gone. At night the IBOC sidebands are extremely robust and cause interference to a local station here in my areas within its protected countours. The system is not very robust - I need advanced AM DX techniques to get reliable decode on AM stations where I am literally in sight of the towers. A power increase has also been proposed for AM sidebands, but the havoc they are producing right now will literally be ten times worse with more power. Many US groups that have stations on adjacent frequencies hundreds of miles apart have had to shut down IBOC power. WJR and WABC are often sited as an example of why the system is unworkable. Similarly the trio of WLW, WOR, and WGN. There are very few reports of AM IBOC working reliably at night. I have never personally gotten the system to work on stations that otherwise have a very strong nighttime signal. I suspect that no matter how robust those sidebands are, they are very susceptible to interference and the slightest hint of analog over them cause loss of lock.

IBOC sidebands obliterate first adjacent AM frequencies with interference considerably louder in volume than the analog channel - a fact that confuses auto scanning radios. Second adjacent AM interference also happens, but the station is still audible if it is reasonably strong - the directional ferrite bars can also null the second adjacent interference if geometries are right. There have been reports of third adjacent jamming by AM IBOC sidebands, but I find that to be untrue - it is a result of poor selectivity on the receiver.

European 9 kHz spacing will slightly worsen the effects of first and second adjacent jamming.

AM HD - when it does decode - does very curious things to music. High frequencies are extrapolated and not sampled, I often use the example of a Jesse McCartney song "Beautiful Soul" which has a high frequency "ding" in the song. Over regular analog and the old C-Quam system, the ding was pure and undistorted. In the HD system, it is muted and the pitch is changed. Very bizarre effect.
 
The Dude said:
HD RADIO is garbage..... (If you want HD type audio,get XM or Sirius :))


This statement is just plain silly. Not to say that HD radio is perfect but the audio on XM & Sirius is just plain terrible. It's filled with artifacts and not pleasent to listen to. The FM HD radio codec is far superior to anything heard on either sat op.
 
R.F. Burns said:
The Dude said:
HD RADIO is garbage..... (If you want HD type audio,get XM or Sirius :))


This statement is just plain silly. Not to say that HD radio is perfect but the audio on XM & Sirius is just plain terrible. It's filled with artifacts and not pleasent to listen to. The FM HD radio codec is far superior to anything heard on either sat op.


This statement is just plain silly.

Mr. Burns is holding back and being way too modest. HD Radio sounds awesome! The programming is amazing! It's a miracle of technological innovation! The station signals are very robust and cause absolutely no interference or hash! It's a raving success! It's all Americans are talking about! Honest! As honest as our banks are solvent!

It's hard to find an HD radio because they sell out so quickly. Haven't you read about the many riots over HD radios as they are delivered to stores? Many people act like they don't care about it or pretend it's a failure because they've been trying to buy an HD radio sooooo badly for sooooo long. They are trying to discourage others so they'll be able to buy one before someone else grabs it. All the kids in the neighborhood would gladly trade their iPods and other mp3 players for even the cheapest HD radio if they had a chance.


 
 
vsa, I can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic. :p

- Trip
 
sheeesh i opened up hornets nest! It sounds to me like it's as controversial as DAB (Digital Audio Broadcasting) is here. i'm not overly high tech but i can tell you it uses MP2 of all things and somewhere in there is Eureka 147. The BBC are as bad as the rest cramming 9 stations into a 1.5 MHz multiplex. average station is at 128kbps but being MP2 it's been said you need at least 192kbps to equal CD quality.
Anyway back to the U.S situation 96k for music? yeesh not sure i like the sound of that. I'll bet the radios are mighty expensive as well. Back when i was there was way back in 2000 and i had very limited knowledge and gear to DX.
 
Sadly this is the childish level some on this board have sunk to. To say that HD radio is garbage and that the two pay satellite services are better only shows that the person who made such a statement has never heard HD radio. With all of the comments about how the public can't stand terrestrial radio as it exists now that I read on this board they sure aren't flocking to either XM or Sirius. Both are in terrible financial shape. I know poeple who worked for XM from the start and they left because they saw the writing on the wall. By the way, HD radio sounds far better than XM radio from a techincal view.
 
vsa said:
This statement is just plain silly.

Mr. Burns is holding back and being way too modest. HD Radio sounds awesome! The programming is amazing! It's a miracle of technological innovation! The station signals are very robust and cause absolutely no interference or hash! It's a raving success! It's all Americans are talking about! Honest! As honest as our banks are solvent!

It's hard to find an HD radio because they sell out so quickly. Haven't you read about the many riots over HD radios as they are delivered to stores? Many people act like they don't care about it or pretend it's a failure because they've been trying to buy an HD radio sooooo badly for sooooo long. They are trying to discourage others so they'll be able to buy one before someone else grabs it. All the kids in the neighborhood would gladly trade their iPods and other mp3 players for even the cheapest HD radio if they had a chance.

Feel better now?

Oh and when internet radio joins Chumby in the niche archive, I promise not to laugh at you........too loud.

In case you have not noticed, people aren't willing to pay for music anymore, and except for us radio geeks, the average person won't go to much trouble to listen online. Free city wide WI-Fi/ Wimax isn't going to happen, I'am very sorry to say that but it seems true. There is no question that mass streaming of audio packets will require a much larger pipeline so, do you think that most people will pay extra for it?

Ask the satellite operators.


While I resent yout attitude here, I do understand where your mind is "at" regarding the future of radio. However in my contacts I have seen that the youngest Americans aren't going to bother that much with mass-programmed aural media, however it is delivered.. They (and I ) can roll our own.


Lino
 
radiosgalore said:
sheeesh i opened up hornets nest!

Anyway back to the U.S situation 96k for music? yeesh not sure i like the sound of that. I'll bet the radios are mighty expensive as well. Back when i was there was way back in 2000 and i had very limited knowledge and gear to DX.

There is sure a lot of nuttiness on both sides.

96k is rather limiting. Every time I hear "CD quality sound", I laugh because CD's are nowhere near as good as a properly set up vinyl or 15ips reel-to-reel system. But - considering the compromise that the current analog multiplex system is on FM, CD quality is a distinct improvement.

The radios are way to expensive for large consumer market penetration. That is a problem the IBOC industry is trying to address, but they have a long way to go until they hit that magic $25 radio at Walmart threshold.

I actually got an HD radio - the model was highly rated as a DX model so I get DX and HD both in one unit. HD is not compelling enough to me to retrofit all of my radios.
 
radiosgalore said:
Couple of questions here. I'm in the Uk so forgive me for asking daft questions

is HD really HD as in higher quality than FM? From what i know HD radio uses the FM sidebands and have heard that the bitrate can be as low as 32k. Is some fancy codec used to make it sound awesome? What effect does this have on adjacent channel interference for DXers and anoraks? and please tell me it's not true HD radio is on AM. What with night time skywave I'd have thought it would raise havoc on the band at night obliterating some clear channel stations. WJR and WABC were audible when i went to N.E Ohio but being 10 khz apart is that even possible now?

My experience here in Northern Minnesota is that at night (NOT during the day) when there is skywave propagation, HD Radio sidebands from distant stations don't usually obliterate their adjacent channels, but fill them with varying levels of hash. Sometimes the channel is still listenable if the HD sideband isn't propagating well; at other times you can still DX the station (identify the signal), but not listen to it for entertainment purposes. It often seems like stations mutually destroy one another...this is the case here between 1100 and 1130 (WTAM Cleveland, KFAB Omaha, KMOX St. Louis, and KFAN Minneapolis). In the past, all of these channels could be listened to at night for pleasure, with very strong signals. My local 560 carried the same show as 1100 and 1110, 650 and 450 miles away respectively, but I'd listen to 1100 or 1110 because the signal was more enjoyable to listen to with less interference. Today each of these channels has varying amounts of hash, usually enough to deter me from listening to them.
 
Your experience is similar to mine, which points to a sinister quality of the HD nighttime adjacent channel interference. The high amplitude of the steady-state intense hash, combined with propagation characteristics, amount to a now-you-hear-it, now-you-don't phenomenon. On some nights the IBOC noise will obliterate local listening. On others, if propagation conditions are low, local service is virtually unaffected. In between, you have an effect not unlike that of rolling surf, with noise alternately roaring in and then abating, as the distant IBOC station comes in strongly and then fades.

The argument often expressed here is that "DXing is antiquated, and nobody cares about the interests of hobbyists" any more. While I have personal doubts even about that sentiment - distant listening is a unique advantage of AM radio which should be appreciated and nurtured, not discarded - that's not the crux of my argument against IBOC-AM. My point is: distant IBOC-operating stations are disrupting service to local stations. DXing is not the issue.

The "DXing is dead" argument has been expanded by pro-IBOCers to a stance that "anyone listening outside the local station's Nighttime Interference-Free Contour (NIF) is, by definition, a DXer, and is not entitled to any degree of listenable signal from a local station." This stance is unsustainable. FCC rules never intended that all service outside of the NIF should be worthless. Rather, the NIF was supposed to represent a signal value which was GUARANTEED to be, by definition, "interference-free." This is not the same thing as saying that now, in the IBOC-AM era, all service outside the NIF is subject to being wiped out by distant interfering HD sidebands.

Worse still, there are many cases of IBOC's invading even local stations' NIF service. This is why many group operators - some of whom were big investors in this hybrid digital-analog scheme - are quietly turning HD off at night to avoid harming other stations, which in some cases, are co-owned.
 
vsa said:
Mr. Burns is holding back and being way too modest. HD Radio sounds awesome! The programming is amazing! It's a miracle of technological innovation! The station signals are very robust and cause absolutely no interference or hash! It's a raving success! It's all Americans are talking about! Honest! As honest as our banks are solvent!

It's hard to find an HD radio because they sell out so quickly. Haven't you read about the many riots over HD radios as they are delivered to stores? Many people act like they don't care about it or pretend it's a failure because they've been trying to buy an HD radio sooooo badly for sooooo long. They are trying to discourage others so they'll be able to buy one before someone else grabs it. All the kids in the neighborhood would gladly trade their iPods and other mp3 players for even the cheapest HD radio if they had a chance.

I'm typing this from a hospital, got beat up in a melee trying to grab the last HD radio at one of our premier high end boutique stores that carry them called Rat Shack, other exclusive high end stores that allegedly sell them (ahem...) are called Walmart and Circuit City, they are found in all the best stores here gathering dust behind large screen TV sets in the back of the store with no antennas on them, that is if they are actually in a store (dust covered). I haven't even seen one yet and I go to places that normally would sell these things. I've seen turntables at Sears even but no iBlock radios.
Seriously, it sucks, no other way to put it. I am also a DXer and DXing was congested before but it's a lot worse now as each IBOC station on AM takes up THREE stations, obliterates two others with it. But I am not talking as a DXer no matter what anyone here says. This can happen for a thousand miles or more at night. I live near Boston and have a triumvirate of IBOCers which trade places each night trying to see who can trample who consisting of 700 Ohio, 710 NY and 720 Ill. WOR 710 NY is by far the worst culprit here in MA (200 miles approx) it is like a blowtorch usually ruining 700 WLW and WGN 720, but other nights WOR is obliterated which is divine retribution as they are one of the biggest boosters of this garbage. WOR 710 is killing both frequencies as I type, the hash starts at 695 and stops at 725 with WOR right in the middle stuck in it's own little world obliviously (??) ruining reception for a thousand miles in whatever direction their plan allows. They are many more here in New England I have to contend with. FM IBOC is useless as well, having a lousy range usually in the vicinity of 10-20 miles if you are in a good location with a good antenna, and NO ONE buys the receivers. Some think it is a scam to get rid of the little guys who they see as nuisances who shouldn't be there in the first place. Others see it as a monopoly (which it is), most non-radio people have no idea it even exists or think they are already getting it and don't realize they have to buy a new (insensitive and expensive) radio.The receivers which are really not sold anywhere unless you REALLY look for them are not selling and will soon be seen (occasionally) for 10 bucks at yard sales, well.... the ones that weren't brought back in time for a refund. We have WBZ here in Boston on 1030 which obliterates it's neighbors up and down the East Coast every night, it's wonderful stuff (if you work for iBiquity).
 
Does WBZ really need to obliterate two of my adjacent channels to cover their (paying) market- when they're 470 miles away from me? </rhetorical question>
 
KB1OKL said:
WOR 710 is killing both frequencies as I type, the hash starts at 695 and stops at 725 with WOR right in the middle stuck in it's own little world obliviously (??) ruining reception for a thousand miles in whatever direction their plan allows.

And the FCC just allows this? as far as i knew stations have to keep to within some pretty strict regulations and causing interference to stations hundreds of miles away certainly isnt in keeping with that.
HD Radio wouldnt work in the UK thats for sure. We have a local station on 96.4 with another smaller station on 96.2 less than 20 miles away and in one really stupid case they have two stations in adjacent areas 100khz apart!
what with LP -AMs and HD radio it sounds like its a mighty crowded band over there
 
radiosgalore said:
And the FCC just allows this? as far as i knew stations have to keep to within some pretty strict regulations and causing interference to stations hundreds of miles away certainly isnt in keeping with that.

They do allow it. Their specs on occupied bandwidth in the AM service (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr73.44.htm) have not been revised, and yet HD appears to violate that rule. You'll note that the rule permitting hybrid-HD operation (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...ccess.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr73.404.htm) requires filtering or other means to avoid messing up the occupied-bandwidth spec for FM stations (subsection e9), but says nothing about AM's except that they "may" reduce their sideband transmissions by 6 dB to avoid interference.
 
This from a radio professional broadcast list, this may tell you how many radio pros over here feel about iBlock:


"I think that I am actually going to take my Accurate Radio Shack Hot Damn
receiver apart to see what is not in it.

I have an easier way. Follow a sanitation truck that's just compacted
its load. Since very few have been sold you might have to stalk the
entire department.

Also, never use the term accurate in this context. It's an Accurian.
Accurate isn't a term that in any way applies to this product."
 
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