HD Radio...a listener's perspective

[bigtom101]

In the meantime HD is destined to become a ghetto for narrowcasting niche and specialty and paid formats in major markets - a kind of new digital SCA, and one that doesn't work as well as the old analog subcarriers. We're already seeing it in the lame simulcasts of 50kw news-talk AMs, foreign language and team-specific all sports talkers

Those paid formats still ring the cash register, and I use the HD3 simulcasts of WINS/WCBS 880 as well as KYW on WYSP HD 2 when I am driving around and the AM signals are unlistenable. So there is a potential market - and devices that don't have AM but have FM HD can still get the station on a multicast channel. iPod's don't do AM, neither do Zune's - but they can get FM, and both can get HD. So now you have a way to reach audiences who most likely have never used AM radio and may never have known you existed.

Is it the best use of multicast channels? I'd rather them used for new innovative programming - turn em over to the young'uns like free form FM in the 60's & 70's. But it is nice to get 880 and not have it turn to mush under a overpass or by a powerline.

 

[8638]

In the meantime HD is destined to become a ghetto for narrowcasting niche and specialty and paid formats in major markets - a kind of new digital SCA, and one that doesn't work as well as the old analog subcarriers. We're already seeing it in the lame simulcasts of 50kw news-talk AMs, foreign language and team-specific all sports talkers

Those paid formats still ring the cash register, and I use the HD3 simulcasts of WINS/WCBS 880 as well as KYW on WYSP HD 2 when I am driving around and the AM signals are unlistenable. So there is a potential market - and devices that don't have AM but have FM HD can still get the station on a multicast channel. iPod's don't do AM, neither do Zune's - but they can get FM, and both can get HD. So now you have a way to reach audiences who most likely have never used AM radio and may never have known you existed.

Is it the best use of multicast channels? I'd rather them used for new innovative programming - turn em over to the young'uns like free form FM in the 60's & 70's. But it is nice to get 880 and not have it turn to mush under a overpass or by a powerline.

I'm curious as to how far from the respective cities you receive steady reception of the HD2/3's you cite. I don't have HD in the car, only at home, but from what I've heard/read, consistent mobile HD reception is probably occurring well within the "meat" of each of the 50Kw AM's you cite.

 

[Ai4i]

On a properly adjusted HD station there is no delay between the analog and digital channel.

Absolutely, and there should be no difference in volume either, but the HD should sound crisper, like any vegetable other than squash.
Amazing how so many otherwise well engineered stations have engineers who are sooo...analogue when it comes to synching audio.

BTW...after moaning and bellyaching about my window antenna for the past year, finally installed a whip.
AM is still pretty bad because of dispatch equipment in my vehicle, but FM is great again.

As for an earlier poster who commented on the range C-QUAM, Kahn was even better.
That system (ISB) actually did match the mono coverage day and night.

 

[Play Freebird]

On a properly adjusted HD station there is no delay between the analog and digital channel.

Absolutely, and there should be no difference in volume either, but the HD should sound crisper, like any vegetable other than squash.
Amazing how so many otherwise well engineered stations have engineers who are sooo...analogue when it comes to synching audio.

I wouldn't point a finger at the station engineers, but rather at a flawed system which tends to drift.

The analog delay (which is artificially introduced to match the digital delay) remains stable, but errors creep into the digital path due to packet losses, buffering, etc. so a system which was in perfect alignment yesterday may have slipped to an audible echo today. Frankly, it's a PITA.

The station engineers who devote their workdays to more important needs (for example, cleaning the transmitters, making sure backup generators are maintained, and fixing sales computers) rather than babysitting the HD diversity delay, probably have their priorities in order.

 

[pocket-radio]

I have NO use for HD Talk Radio AM or FM.

On a properly adjusted HD station there is no delay between the analog and digital channel.

David you make a good point. But it's like saying Toyota's with gas pedals that don't stick work fine.
All I can say is the engineers must be real nitwits because they can't properly adjust their HD systems, or are complete slackers and prefer to drink outback in the transmitter room. Because like you say, on a properly adjusted HD station there is no delay.

 

[RadeoEngineer]

So if engineers are supposed to keep everything running to perfection all the time, shouldn't programmers achieve the highest ratings every book and shouldn't sellers beat the market every quarter?

 

[Ai4i]

...a flawed system which tends to drift.

We do not hear differences in time between the analogue signals and digital signals changing. Rather, if a station is off by half a second one day, it is always off by half a second. If it is in perfect synch one day, it remains as such forever. More likely, and we have not compared the time differences on many receivers, not all radios will have the same amount of delay. This too we tend to doubt, as our two units both point to precisely identical issues with the same stations. We love to hear stations fading fropm analogue to digital and back in perfect time synch. We have noticed that larger market stations to tend to be in closer synch than the secondary ones.

 

[Savage]

"Not all radios will have the same amount of delay??" Thanks for making my day, a141!!

I can't wait to try this one out on the next cop who pulls me over for running a red light: "Hey, officer, the lights look different in different makes of cars!!" ;D

 

[RadeoEngineer]

...a flawed system which tends to drift.

We love to hear stations fading fropm analogue to digital and back in perfect time synch. We have noticed that larger market stations to tend to be in closer synch than the secondary ones.

Does this not suggest a problem of a nonfunctional transmission system?

 

[Ai4i]

Thanks for making my day, a141!!

It is understood that as there is delay in encoding, so too is there delay in decoding.
Who is credited with having said something to the effect of, "say anything about me but spell my name right"?
Those are eyes, not ones.

 

[Savage]

I apolo - g - eyes.

Just went to the eye doc yesterday where they dilated the behoobies out of me. Maybe the peepers still aren't workin' right.

 

[Ai4i]

No prob.
After having the ham radio callsign since Carter was in the White House, it becomes personal.
The standard "Alpha India 4 India", then "Any Ideas 4 Instance", and finally my favorite,"Always Itching 4 It".
Most of us are named by biological or adopted parents, but for me it was the FCC. ;D

 

[Don Juan]

I wouldn't point a finger at the station engineers, but rather at a flawed system which tends to drift.

We've experienced no drift at all in our facilities.

 

[Play Freebird]

I wouldn't point a finger at the station engineers, but rather at a flawed system which tends to drift.

We've experienced no drift at all in our facilities.

Don, would you tell us more about the equipment you're using, (exciters, STLs, etc.) so we can gain some insight? I'm aware certain configurations tend to be more stable than others, and Brian Beezley's observations in southern CA confirm this: "Many of the delay errors are stable, but some vary markedly from day to day." See the bottom of this page:

http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/roster.htm

I'm just disappointed that the developers of the IBOC system would release it to users with this major flaw, then blame station engineers for its poor stability. This problem was known over five years ago and still hasn't been fixed on many stations.

One company sells a box which is supposed to help in the "constant battle to detect and correct slight misalignments before they become noticeable to listeners". I'm not sure what it costs, but IMHO iBiquity should be covering this expense, rather than treating it as another profit center:

http://www.daysequerra.com/ViewProd...Tab=MODULATION MONITORS&CurPage=AM/FM HDRadio

 

[RadeoEngineer]

List on the box is $3500. Proaudio.com sells it for $3294.95. http://www.proaudio.com/product_info.php?products_id=7298

 

[stacker]

Don Juan, while taking a break from tilting at windmills said:

We've experienced no drift at all in our facilities.

Wow, that is SO insightful. Like a third grader arguing. "Yes, you did." "No I didn't".

"The sun is the center of the universe."

"No it's not."

Who could possibly respond to such a well reasoned response to a real issue involving HD radio?

Game over, Don.

 

[Savage]

Don: let me (1) congratulate you on having the ONLY HD facility in the entire industry apparently experiencing "no drift" in time-alignment of the digital and analog streams. Remarkable!

And: (2) thanks for revealing that you work at an HD-equipped facility, and illustrating a marked suck-up attitude towards IBOC. My guess is you're doing it to impress higher management which is invested in HD.

Nobody supports HD because of engineering "merit," such as it is when it comes to this system. There's ALWAYS an agenda with HD supporters.

 

[Ai4i]

Our issue happens when we lose lock on a local HD3 (AM news/talk/sports simulcast) and our very special radio reverts to the originating AM station with a five to seven second lag or lead. Really though, it would be nice if we could switch back and forth in real time.

 

[CaptBob92]

Half the problem with HD is the manufacturers again. I put a JVC in a used car I bought and what a pain in the ass it is to listen to. Why?

With most HD capable radios You either turn on HD for all stations or none. So if your driving down the road listening to a weak station and you loose the HD and it blends back to analog you get the echo followed by it going back etc. soo you decide since you don't have a good HD signal you'll just turn the HD off and listen to analong. That's fine until one of two things happens, either you switch to another station which if it's HD is not coming in well will also have to be adjusted to keep the HD off or if you come back to the first weak station you'll have to switch HD off again!! In other words you can't shut off HD individually for each preset!!!

Biottom line, I just shut the entire HD off and don't listen

BTW Many times when I first got the radio it switched to HD and I didn't even notice so there is no real improvment over analog quality. At least not in my car with the abiant noise.

It's a shame since there are a few formats on HD that i would listen to if I could.

 

[TheRover]

Half the problem with HD is the manufacturers again. I put a JVC in a used car I bought and what a pain in the ass it is to listen to. Why?


It's a shame since there are a few formats on HD that I would listen to if I could.

I won't go back to JVC.... I will carefully investigate what features I want, with at least 12 AM Presets Minimum. The 6 JVC gives is NOT enough. And I could easily get by with just 12 FM Presets.... unless I could actually preset an HD-2 or an HD-3 channel.... but JVC didn't give that either. But.... My Radio Shack Accurian Tabletop HD Radio does allow to preset HD sub-channels.... But... the Accurian's lack of a Bass and Treble control s u c k s. The Accurain's unchangeable pre-selected EQ settings just don't cut it for me.

All of that said..... still not enough HD side channels of interest to make me buy an HD radio in the car next time.

Lessons Learned.