"HD Radio Shouldn't Be This Hard"

[BRNout]

While we're at it, what is on WCPT that is so important to Chicago it has to be carried on no less than four radio signals?

Nothing. They are a band hog. BUT, now that they've gone 24/7, I never get a listenable signal from them NOR do I get one any more from WBAP. In other words, from my location in the northern end of the Chicago market, WCPT's nighttime signal has obliterated yet another AM channel with interference. And THAT is the point.

And yes Zach, we do need to delete a ton of AM stations. I am convinced that this is the only way that the band becomes viable again. Yes, the details of such a band plan could get very complicated and require some difficult choices. But if you look at how few AM stations are successful, how few actually make money and attract listeners, that would seem to be a good starting point to separate the wheat from the chaff.

And no - WCPT does neither thing. Its ratings, accumulated over 3 FMs and 1 AM, it barely scrapes out a rating of 0.8. Three of the four frequencies had fewer listeners in the most recent Chicago PPM ratings than Milwaukee's WMIL - an out of market country signal that's not even available south of central Lake County!

While you're thinking about that, consider how many AMs don't even have enough listeners to make the ratings. It's the majority. Far more stations than are viable.

 

[Savage]

If the Commission and/or the industry had any interest in resuscitating AM - and of course, as of today, they don't - there should be a buy-back program to turn off marginal or irrelevant AMs. Turn in your license, get a cash payment and/or a tax credit.

(Of course, now that tiny AMs with no appreciable signals and not even PSA/PSSA can serve as primaries for 250-watt FM translators which are in some markets almost the equivalent of a Class A FM, the incentive would have to be pretty good. Maybe a special rule could apply in the case of AMs voluntarily vacating the band - such as, part of the deal could be a 24-hour internet stream could serve as the primary! THAT would be persuasive.)

I can think of a minimum power, high-on-the-dial daytimer with no presunrise/post-sunset, and a couple of nearby 1kw DA-2s operating in such a way that the three stations together can't be sharing more than a dozen listeners or so. Certainly AM would be better off with them gone, and expand that to every US market - I'd guesstimate we could get a good 1500 signals off the AM band, which would be an excellent start....a third of currently operating AMs.

 

[davideduardo]

When ONE station covers 30-odd states, there is no reason to duplicate the programming over and over.

WBAP does not cover 30 states even at night with any reliability and regularity. Maybe parts of two or three states, no more.

Night does not occur some times of the year until after 8 PM.

Almost all signficant radio listening is in "daytime" hours, and that's where advertisers want to put their ad dollars, particularly in a Top 10 market like Dallas.

 

[KB1OKL]

WBAP does not cover 30 states even at night with any reliability and regularity. Maybe parts of two or three states, no more.

Maybe not now but when it was a clear it did. WBZ, 1030's hasher used to brag about being heard in 32 states and parts of Canada, now it brags about wiping out 1015 Khz to 1045 Khz in 32 states and parts of Canada.

 

[Tom Wells]

When ONE station covers 30-odd states, there is no reason to duplicate the programming over and over.

WBAP does not cover 30 states even at night with any reliability and regularity. Maybe parts of two or three states, no more.

Night does not occur some times of the year until after 8 PM.

Almost all signficant radio listening is in "daytime" hours, and that's where advertisers want to put their ad dollars, particularly in a Top 10 market like Dallas.

I've BEEN to all them 30-odd states, and YES, it does, to the extent they're not being interfered with by someone like the
wee little noisemaker in MD, VA, or wherever it is. The signal is still there, it's just not clean any longer.

 

[BRNout]

If the Commission and/or the industry had any interest in resuscitating AM - and of course, as of today, they don't - there should be a buy-back program to turn off marginal or irrelevant AMs. Turn in your license, get a cash payment and/or a tax credit.

(Of course, now that tiny AMs with no appreciable signals and not even PSA/PSSA can serve as primaries for 250-watt FM translators which are in some markets almost the equivalent of a Class A FM, the incentive would have to be pretty good. Maybe a special rule could apply in the case of AMs voluntarily vacating the band - such as, part of the deal could be a 24-hour internet stream could serve as the primary! THAT would be persuasive.)

I can think of a minimum power, high-on-the-dial daytimer with no presunrise/post-sunset, and a couple of nearby 1kw DA-2s operating in such a way that the three stations together can't be sharing more than a dozen listeners or so. Certainly AM would be better off with them gone, and expand that to every US market - I'd guesstimate we could get a good 1500 signals off the AM band, which would be an excellent start....a third of currently operating AMs.

I think that is an excellent suggestion. Cleaning up the band would help to resuscitate the AMs that remain. By lowering the noise floor, you'd have clearer signals that are more apt to hold on to listeners.

Seriously, go through any market and you'll find less than a half-dozen AM signals (in all but the largest markets) that have real financial viability and actual listenership. Once you clear the band, perhaps the frequency allotments can be adjusted so as to move remaining local/regional stations on to clearer frequencies so that they are not being stepped on by 50 kw blowtorches (and vice versa). That would be better for all concerned.

WBAP does not cover 30 states even at night with any reliability and regularity. Maybe parts of two or three states, no more.

Night does not occur some times of the year until after 8 PM.

Almost all signficant radio listening is in "daytime" hours, and that's where advertisers want to put their ad dollars, particularly in a Top 10 market like Dallas.

I've BEEN to all them 30-odd states, and YES, it does, to the extent they're not being interfered with by someone like the
wee little noisemaker in MD, VA, or wherever it is. The signal is still there, it's just not clean any longer.

Tom is right. Last winter (Feb.), when I traveled to Costa Rica, WBAP still had a clear nighttime channel in the Chicago area. For whatever reason, I had been dxing the night before leaving on the trip and had left the radio on 820. Honestly, WBAP was not/is not one of my faves to listen to, but I checked it out that night to get a weather forecast for DFW (where I was connecting the next day) while walking the dog. Well, when I got to San Jose the following evening and settled in, I took out the radio, turned it on and.....there was a weak WBAP!

So yes, not only can you pick it up from the southeast to the mountain west, but it also is capable of coming in at least as far south as Costa Rica. Which is at the same latitude as northern South America.

The difference now is that there are too many co-channel and adjacent channel (with a side of hash) signals to allow this station to have a nice, clean, listenable signal in the same areas where it once did.

Now, I used WBAP as an example - but there are many others. Basically, pick any former clear and look at how many signals the FCC has shoehorned into place where they probably should never have gone. The net effect is a band full of crap that is an immediate turn-off for most potential listeners.

 

[Tom Wells]

David, for some help in our understanding of how you might think WBAP doesn't have the coverage anymore, just what kind of
radio are you using to listen to AM. and does it have a true tuned RF amp before the mixer, or is it just straight
conversion to IF with no preselector/amplifier stage?

If you are using a modern, average receiver, they do not have tuned RF amps, so I could understand your thinking
AM doesn't regularly have such reach.

Do you have any old radios you could fire up and have a listen?
Even old 5-tube all-American AC/DC sets had the advantage of "conversion gain" in a pentagrid mixer, without a "real" pre-amp.
The newest radio I use for AM is an '82 Blaupunkt, as it has an AM preamp.
Mostly they are older, and many are tube sets with AM pre-amps.
All my car radios also have pre-amp stages, except for that new Kenwood HD I put in my wife's Hyundai, which is
deaf as a post on AM. I think the factory Hyundai radio was more sensitive on AM.
For some reason neither the Hyundai radio or the Kenwood have an antenna trimmer on them anywhere,
so I don't see how they COULD be expected to have much sensitivity.

Don't blame the wavelength when new radios are hobbled by design.

It's pretty hard to assess and measure if one's tools are inadequate or in the case of a radio, insensitive or unselective.

 

[TheBigA]

I think that is an excellent suggestion. Cleaning up the band would help to resuscitate the AMs that remain. By lowering the noise floor, you'd have clearer signals that are more apt to hold on to listeners.

Neither of those have anything to do with the FCC's agenda.

WBAP still had a clear nighttime channel in the Chicago area.

No one has answered my question: What is on WBAP at night that is so important to the people of Chicago.

 

[BRNout]

No one has answered my question: What is on WBAP at night that is so important to the people of Chicago.

Your question has been answered several times. It's not that WBAP has such important programming to the people of Chicago (though I'd rather listen to IT than to low-budget local WCPT). The fact of the matter is that the laws of physics dictate that WBAP's nighttime skywave signal is present here - every night. Some nights stronger than others.

By placing another (lower powered) station on the same frequency, you have a harmonica trying to drown out a rock band. Yes, if you're standing next to the harmonica - you hear the harmonica with the rock band in the distance. Anywhere else, the harmonica is screwing up the sound of the rock band, rendering neither listenable.

My analogy aside, I live about 40 miles north of downtown Chicago - near the center of a Chicago DMA county (and not even the farthest north one). Rather than having a clear signal of WBAP on 820, now I have a mash up of WBAP and WCPT. WCPT is useless; if I wanted to listen to it, I could hear the same content on 92.7 (at local grade) or 92.5/99.9 (with a weaker signal); on AM at night, it's not listenable. Nor is WBAP listenable anymore. It was - before 'CPT was granted night time operation.

So, there's a swath of the AM band that's essentially nuked - in my area and likely for a pretty good sized area of real estate that's shaped like a poorly formed doughnut. That's horrible for the band, because it's only one example of hundreds of other bad decisions made by the idiots at the FCC. Collectively, they result in a noisy, hard to listen to and useless band. For the past week or so, I am hearing Mexican music under WLS 890 at night. Now, that IS a local station to me and it should be protected where I live. But that Mexican music comes from somewhere and it may well be operating legally, given the way that the FCC has been greedily shoehorning stations into channels where they DO NOT belong. That kind of stuff degrades the listening experience, just as WCPT's new signal surely does outside of Chicago proper. WCPT now creates interference all over the midwest and contributes to a higher noise floor overall. Like it or not, its signal will exist as skywave and inevitably end up traveling to places where it should not be.

The only stations worth listening to are big 50 kw blowtorches - from well within their local markets (not even the fringes of those markets). And, guess what? Those are just about the only ones making money now. Few others can do well because they can't get a clear signal to their respective audiences.

The sooner that the suit-wearing weasely politicians at the FCC learn that skywave exists and should be used advantageously, rather than ignored, the better. We ignore physics at our own peril. In this case, it's literally been killing the viability of the AM band.

And don't even get me started about those damn IBOC sidebands.

So, Big A, does THAT answer your question?

 

[Tom Wells]

I think that is an excellent suggestion. Cleaning up the band would help to resuscitate the AMs that remain. By lowering the noise floor, you'd have clearer signals that are more apt to hold on to listeners.

Neither of those have anything to do with the FCC's agenda.

WBAP still had a clear nighttime channel in the Chicago area.

No one has answered my question: What is on WBAP at night that is so important to the people of Chicago.

I see BRNout and I have been typing responses at the same time..

A unique signal and programming, and if they destroy that with excess "sameness as everywhere else" it's still the
POTENTIAL to be a UNIQUE choice in programming. As in, doesn't sound like Chicago. Sounds like it's coming from a REAL, ACTUAL place, not some disembodied thing that could be anywhere or nowhere at all.
Country and WESTERN music..TEXAS SWING. Weather for major interstates detailed in a way useful for long distance travelers.
The COW BELL, fer Pete's sake! Enough flavor of Texas that you'd think they're PROUD of Texas.


That's what. That's what Clear channels are FOR.

When New Orleans was hit by the hurricane, I did NOT listen to news about on anything other than WWL.

When a huge storm is coming in winter, I kinda like to hear on WCCO how it's hitting them, cause they get it first.

When the Grand Ol Opry is on, it's a choice. It does not sound like anywhere else.

That is the highest and best use of clear channels, and service to a very large public, without being offended the freeloading dx listeners aren't "any good" to them revenue-wise.

 

[TheBigA]

So, Big A, does THAT answer your question?

Not in a way that matters to the FCC. It has been clear they have a more than 25 year agenda of increasing the number of licensees and signals. They don't care about laws of physics. If the argument is a strictly scientific, it will fall on deaf ears. If anything your argument could be used to cut their power back more. There is no practical reason why any radio station should be heard outside of its main coverage area. Preserving skywaves, or eliminating HD so a handful of people can listen to syndicated programming on radio stations ten states away instead of their local station makes no practical sense in the 21st century. Sorry, but that is simply the reality.

That's what Clear channels are FOR.

The FCC eliminated clear channels over 25 years ago. Radio stations don't program beyond their primary service area. So they run syndicated programming at night. That is a business decision. There is nothing that will cause them to change that business decision. There is nothing unique on these stations at night, and that will not change. The programming on WBAP is syndicated and can be heard locally. That is what the FCC wants, and that is what WBAP wants.

 

[Tom Wells]

So, Big A, does THAT answer your question?

They don't care about laws of physics.

Then they should be totally decommissioned, as the creation of the body was in order keep radio useful within the laws of physics.
If you're saying that's not important, then let's follow Italy over the RF cliff.

I have a 500 watt 1950-ish 19 inch rack mount plate modulated transmitter just four feet to the left of me here and if the FCC is obsolete, I'll just start tuning up on top of 780 WBBM to show how much I love thir iboc!
Or what would your proposal be to eliminate skywave? I'm sure you think deaf receivers would be a perfect solution.
Holy moley, we're back to the deaf Reichsvolk receivers AGAIN!, Why not wired radio, to make sure skywave can't happen?
Oh. that's right there's already been an internet and computers invented...Hmmm.
This is getting tough all this radioness is getting hard to avoid, everyone just wants to be "media", radio's too ancient.
DON'T be be proud of being yourself, feel little and wish you were something else, because you're hopelessly jealous.
What is WRONG?.. with you "radio people" in the business that are trying so hard to reinvent yourself so much that you can't remember who
you are at ALL, eventually.

That's what Clear channels are FOR.

The FCC eliminated clear channels over 25 years ago. Radio stations don't program beyond their primary service area. So they run syndicated programming at night. That is a business decision. There is nothing that will cause them to change that business decision. There is nothing unique on these stations at night, and that will not change. The programming on WBAP is syndicated and can be heard locally. That is what the FCC wants, and that is what WBAP wants.

The law of physics laughs at such a foolish waste of such a valuable resource, and listeners curse at such selfishness, just as they did
in the interference wars of 1926 and a while after, until the Federal Radio Commision was created to make sure that
the greatest number of people heard CLEANLY, the greatest number of signals, in the WHOLE USA, in a COORDINATED manner.
All we have now is uniform, syndicated drivel from sea to shining sea, all with just the right touch of monosodium glutamate.

Think listners might start going away?



side note:
Where are those harmonicas, anyways?

 

[TheBigA]

All we have now is uniform, syndicated drivel from sea to shining sea, all with just the right touch of monosodium glutamate.

Think listners might start going away?

Putting unique live content on those signals at that time won't change that. We live in a multi-media world, people have many options, not just one, so their media activities involve many platforms, not just AM. Syndication is no different than a station in NY with a 100kw signal. The end result is the same. People in distant areas listen to programming coming from a big city. Advertisers who want that kind of mass buy spots in syndicated shows. Local advertisers in Dallas don't care about reaching Chicago. If they did, they'd buy spots in the syndicated shows.

And today's clear channel is the internet. The Grand Ole Opry can be heard on opry.com, and it can be heard worldwide, not limited to the scientific restrictions of the big 650. And it's not limited to real time. If you missed the Opry last night, it's available on demand 24/7. You think that's what listeners want? You betcha.

 

[BRNout]

What you're missing here BigA is this: skywave characteristics are a fact of life on the MW band. The FCC has chosen to ignore that characteristic and, in doing so, has accelerated the death of this band as a form of usable media. And it's a very useful band - if used right.

The saleability of WBAP to advertisers in Chicago isn't the point either. The point is that WBAP's skywave is present in Chicago at night -whether the FCC likes it or not. Skywave exists, every night (except, perhaps, in auroral areas) and it doesn't give a whit as to whether the sales slime for a tiny station in Chicago likes it or not.

By ignoring this reality, the jerks at the FCC have degraded the AM/MW band to the point where its lost generations of potential listeners. Fewer stations, at higher power, would result in improved fidelity and a better shot at increased listenership. As it stands right now, AM is going down. And, doing things like authorizing a brand new nighttime signal on 820 in Chicago (used to rebroadcast the same low-rated dreck as is already available to the market on FM), the FCC is adding grease to the downward slide. It never should have been allowed.

 

[TheBigA]

By ignoring this reality, the jerks at the FCC have degraded the AM/MW band to the point where its lost generations of potential listeners.

I have no reason to believe that's true. The American system of broadcasting is funded by advertisers. So dismissing the sales concerns ignores the most basic motivation for content creation. Second of all, AM radio doesn't exist in a vacuum. Other platforms have been created in the last 50 years, so preserving one doesn't ensure its viability in the marketplace with increased competition. That's what's really hurting AM right now. If the only advantage AM has is its signal, that's not as great an advantage as it once was because of the internet.

It would be nice if the federal government was concerned about preserving its resources. The problem is that as long as AM radio is used by commercial operations, they're basically using the power of the federal government to help private business. That's not really the role of the government.Or more specifically, those endowed with clear channel capability over those who don't. That's unfair to the larger body of the population that wants to broadcast, but isn't grandfathered into clear channel status. The government has a different approach when it comes to the parts of the spectrum it utilizes for "public purposes."

 

[stacker]

The Big A said:

Not in a way that matters to the FCC. It has been clear they have a more than 25 year agenda of increasing the number of licensees and signals. They don't care about laws of physics. If the argument is a strictly scientific, it will fall on deaf ears.

Well, you apparently haven't filed an AM application for a new station or a change in existing facilities. The FCC still holds applicants to the pre-iboc interference rules. Nighttime modifications are required to reduce sky wave interference.

Frankly, the only thing that has changed is that the Commission has bought into the idea that it's permissible to fill the NRSC mask with an "always on-off digital carrier." The mask was developed in the analog days to deal with the peaks generated by analog AM. Using the mask as a loophole to add a digital signal is simply a sham. Those who have perpetrated that sham for their own interest should be ashamed.

 

[Tom Wells]

Using the mask as a loophole to add a digital signal is simply a sham. Those who have perpetrated that sham for their own interest should be ashamed.

How about "Slapped silly" instead?

 

[TheBigA]

The FCC still holds applicants to the pre-iboc interference rules. Nighttime modifications are required to reduce sky wave interference.

And yet they don't police iboc stations.

 

[Savage]

They don't "police" FM interference problems from IBOC either. The FCC has a clandestine internal policy to completely ignore the HD interference issue. The most recent complaint threshold requirements reveal that they simply want to set an impossibly high and unrealistic bar so ALL IBOC interference issues can be tossed before they even make it in the door.

Call it the secret HD-At-All-Costs R&O. It's the regulatory equivalent of the Knights Who Say "NEE!"

John Cleese: "Firrrrst.....you must cut down the tallest tree in the forest......with a HERRING!!"

 

[pocket-radio]

[/quote]
[glow=red,2,300]I have no reason to believe that's true. The American system of broadcasting is funded by advertisers. So dismissing the sales concerns ignores the most basic motivation for content creation. [/glow]

purposes."
[/quote]

The FCC regulates space/frequency . They don't care about sales, content or anything else except for the regulation of space/frequency.